Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

WildCat said:
Please present your evidence that Zimmerman did any sort of assaulting.
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I'm not making that claim. My claim is that we don't have enough evidence to know who assaulted whom first, but I can't prove a negative.

You, however, are making the claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first. The burden has been on you the whole time.
 
I'd still like to hear someone suggest a better explanation for Jeantel's month of not contacting anyone and then being upset she got tracked down and involved (by pro-Trayvon people no less.)

It is undeniable that if things played out in the way she and Trayvon's supporters claim (innocent Trayvon is hunted down, confronted, and assaulted or restrained) then she would have contacted authorities of some kind within five minutes of the phone call dying. Within an hour she'd have informed anyone she and Trayvon both knew. She likely would've made a social media post going out to all contacts and have been telling everyone she knew, whether they knew Trayvon or not, because hearing a friend get stalked and grabbed while he innocently walked home is a huge deal and not the sort of thing you keep entirely tight-lipped about for a month until you're forced by others to disclose it.

If things went how she claims, the fact that a girl had been on the phone with Trayvon would've been known to the nation from the very outset, not a revelation weeks later.

The idea of hearing one of your very good friends get grabbed by a stranger who'd been stalking him and cry out "get off me!" as the phone goes dead, and not having 911 dialed within the next five minutes is preposterous. Even if Miami 911 told her they couldn't help, we live in an age of ultimate ease in finding phone numbers and within an hour she should absolutely have been talking to Orlando area law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised if Miami would've/could've transferred her or at least given her a phone number to call.

Yet, the next morning... Tracy Martin is unaware anything has happened. He hasn't gotten a single text or call through the grapevine via Sybrina of Alicia or Trayvon's cousin or anyone. This despite a full 12 hours going by since Jeantel supposedly heard a straight forward instance of Trayvon being victimized in a dangerous and dramatic way while totally innocent. We know Tracy had Facebook. We know Trayvon did. Even if Rachel didn't have any contacts in common with Trayvon, she would've been shouting from the rooftops and would've alerted Trayvon's family through the grapevine or via law enforcement.

An entire night went by as she continued to not hear back from Trayvon, then days go by, then she hears he was shot dead that night, then she hears the guy isn't being arrested and is claiming self-defense... yet despite having heard things which clearly establish Trayvon as the innocent party being stalked who is then grabbed, she says nothing. A full month later she has to be tracked down via phone records and dragged by Crump into any sort of participation.

This is completely laughable. Does not compute. I would like to hear people who think Zimmerman murdered Trayvon or that Trayvon was defending himself, offer an explanation for this.

I contend the best (maybe the only?) explanation for her behavior, particularly when she found out he's been killed by the guy and the guy wasn't arrested, is that she knew Trayvon had been in the wrong and had doubled back with an assault planned in advance after he saw the guy up north at the T with a flashlight out, no longer protected by his truck or the well lit street.
 
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Mumbles said:
Eh, I can agree. Zimmerman should be in jail for...well, a large number of things, but in this case murder. But civil rights violations require a much higher standard of evidence, and while it's plain to anyone with common sense that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin and attacked him, there's no chance it could have been proved in court beyond a reasonable doubt.
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When I originally heard the recording of Zimmerman's phone call to the police, it sounded to me like Zimmerman wasn't initially sure that Martin was black when asked whether the guy in question was white, black or Hispanic. He answered that the guy "looked" black, but a little later in the conversation after he seemingly got a better look he then just voluntarily confirmed that Martin was indeed black.

So, just when would mere common sense say that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin - before, during or after that phone conversation?

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded. This is Sean.

Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is One Eleven Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or sumpin’. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: Okay, is this guy, is he white, black or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearin’?

Zimmerman: Yeah, Mmm, a dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area?

Zimmerman: Looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: Okay…

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

Dispatcher: Okay, and you said it's One One One One Retreat View? Or One Eleven?

Zimmerman: That's the, that’s the clubhouse…

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse; do you know what the…He's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's comin’ towards me.

Dispatcher: Okay.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
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http://www.soundevidence.com/index.php?link=zimmerman

The audio is at that site also.

It sounded to me like Zimmerman just answered the question he was asked the best he could at the time and then confirmed that he had answered correctly once he got a better look. So, I'm really not sure that race was much of an issue until others decided to make it so.
 
WildCat said:
Cool story bro, too bad it's speculation entirely unsupported by the evidence.
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Every single data point I referenced is an established and undisputed fact, all of it being derived from either Zimmerman's NEN call or various statement he gave to the police and the media.

Feel free to challenge any particular one with which you take issue.

Do have anything to offer besides hand-waving dismissal and a poor grasp of the facts?
 
WildCat said:
No, but that person would have a very hard time convincing a judge or jury they really believed that when they had a phone in hand, lots of time to call the police, but instead decided to talk to a girl 180 miles away instead.

It's nonsensical.
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Yeah, it's still not quite sinking in, is it? I honestly thought the giant bolded words would help you.

So let me ask you this, WildCat: At what point during the split second or so that the stranger who had been watching and following him made a quick move for his pocket was Martin supposed to call the police?
 
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WildCat said:
Please present your evidence that Zimmerman did any sort of assaulting.
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Oh look, WildCat is demanding evidence for a claim (that no one actually made) while at the same time ignoring the repeated requests for evidence for a claim he has made.

And I bet he thought no one would notice.

How adorable.
 
Ziggurat said:
Zimmerman assaulted Martin with his face. Did you see how badly he messed up that poor kid's knuckles?
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Hey Zig! Welcome to the party.

Do you have evidence that Martin criminally assaulted Zimmerman?

Because so far, everyone else making that claim has been embarrassingly unable to substantiate it with even the smallest shred of evidence.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
I'd still like to hear someone suggest a better explanation for Jeantel's month of not contacting anyone and then being upset she got tracked down and involved (by pro-Trayvon people no less.)

It is undeniable that if things played out in the way she and Trayvon's supporters claim (innocent Trayvon is hunted down, confronted, and assaulted or restrained) then she would have contacted authorities of some kind within five minutes of the phone call dying. Within an hour she'd have informed anyone she and Trayvon both knew. She likely would've made a social media post going out to all contacts and have been telling everyone she knew, whether they knew Trayvon or not, because hearing a friend get stalked and grabbed while he innocently walked home is a huge deal and not the sort of thing you keep entirely tight-lipped about for a month until you're forced by others to disclose it.

If things went how she claims, the fact that a girl had been on the phone with Trayvon would've been known to the nation from the very outset, not a revelation weeks later.

The idea of hearing one of your very good friends get grabbed by a stranger who'd been stalking him and cry out "get off me!" as the phone goes dead, and not having 911 dialed within the next five minutes is preposterous. Even if Miami 911 told her they couldn't help, we live in an age of ultimate ease in finding phone numbers and within an hour she should absolutely have been talking to Orlando area law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised if Miami would've/could've transferred her or at least given her a phone number to call.

Yet, the next morning... Tracy Martin is unaware anything has happened. He hasn't gotten a single text or call through the grapevine via Sybrina of Alicia or Trayvon's cousin or anyone. This despite a full 12 hours going by since Jeantel supposedly heard a straight forward instance of Trayvon being victimized in a dangerous and dramatic way while totally innocent. We know Tracy had Facebook. We know Trayvon did. Even if Rachel didn't have any contacts in common with Trayvon, she would've been shouting from the rooftops and would've alerted Trayvon's family through the grapevine or via law enforcement.

An entire night went by as she continued to not hear back from Trayvon, then days go by, then she hears he was shot dead that night, then she hears the guy isn't being arrested and is claiming self-defense... yet despite having heard things which clearly establish Trayvon as the innocent party being stalked who is then grabbed, she says nothing. A full month later she has to be tracked down via phone records and dragged by Crump into any sort of participation.

This is completely laughable. Does not compute. I would like to hear people who think Zimmerman murdered Trayvon or that Trayvon was defending himself, offer an explanation for this.

I contend the best (maybe the only?) explanation for her behavior, particularly when she found out he's been killed by the guy and the guy wasn't arrested, is that she knew Trayvon had been in the wrong and had doubled back with an assault planned in advance after he saw the guy up north at the T with a flashlight out, no longer protected by his truck or the well lit street.
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Perhaps it's all part of the conspiracy against Zimmerman you alleged here.

We really have no idea how deep this thing goes.
 
johnny karate said:
Do you have evidence that Martin criminally assaulted Zimmerman?
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I missed a lot of this thread due to not being able to stomach it (for various reasons), so pardon me if you've already been over this many times. When you refer to "criminally assaulted", what do you mean?
 
johnny karate said:
Hey Zig! Welcome to the party.

Do you have evidence that Martin criminally assaulted Zimmerman?

Because so far, everyone else making that claim has been embarrassingly unable to substantiate it with even the smallest shred of evidence.
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Of course, because stuff like damage to Martin's knuckles? Yeah, that totally shows Zimmerman assaulted him with his face. It's totally not evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman. You're so right, johnny, why won't everyone else see it?
 
Upchurch said:
I'm not making that claim. My claim is that we don't have enough evidence to know who assaulted whom first, but I can't prove a negative.

You, however, are making the claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first. The burden has been on you the whole time.
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My claim is that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, and it is backed up by the available evidence. You're claiming that Zimmerman assaulted Martin, and you have yet to provide a shred of evidence supporting that.

So before we have a "first" you have to establish there was a "second", which you have not done.
 
johnny karate said:
Yeah, it's still not quite sinking in, is it? I honestly thought the giant bolded words would help you.

So let me ask you this, WildCat: At what point during the split second or so that the stranger who had been watching and following him made a quick move for his pocket was Martin supposed to call the police?
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You're the one claiming Martin ran in terror from Zimmerman, and that was several minutes prior to the confrontation.

And no, a stranger following you with his hand in his pocket is not a license to attack them in Florida or any other state.
 
Upchurch said:
I missed a lot of this thread due to not being able to stomach it (for various reasons), so pardon me if you've already been over this many times. When you refer to "criminally assaulted", what do you mean?
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I only added the modifier to make it clear to dishonest people that by "assault" I mean the crime "assault" and not simply the act of punching someone.
 
johnny karate said:
Oh look, WildCat is demanding evidence for a claim (that no one actually made)
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He did make it when he asked who assaulted who "first". You can't have a first without a second, and therefore Upchurch is indeed claiming there was an assault by Zimmerman upon Martin.

Maybe you can help him out?
 
Ziggurat said:
Of course, because stuff like damage to Martin's knuckles? Yeah, that totally shows Zimmerman assaulted him with his face. It's totally not evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman. You're so right, johnny, why won't everyone else see it?
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Serious question, Zig: Are you under the impression that any time a person punches someone else that it is automatically the crime of assault?
 
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