Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

johnny johnny johnny, you have yet to explain why a person who was in fear of imminent unlawful force against him would choose to talk with agirl 180 miles away instead of calling the police. And according to Jeantel this conversation continued right up until the confrontation.

Let's try this again:

Martin walks home at night talking on the phone with his friend.

Zimmerman sits in his car watching Martin.

Martin sees him and runs away.

Zimmerman follows Martin.

Zimmerman makes no attempt to identify himself or announce his intentions.

Zimmerman makes a quick move for his pocket.


Read the above carefully. Follow the sequence of events. Note that last event in particular. The one that occurred just prior to Martin punching Zimmerman.

Now... in that exact scenario I just described taking into consideration everything that happened and the order in which it happened, please explain how is was not reasonable for Martin to believe Zimmerman intended to use imminent unlawful force against him at the moment Martin decided to punch him.

ETA: Also, please, please, please stop conflating "fear" and "believe". It makes you seem dishonest and ignorant, and I would hate for anyone to get the impression about you.
 
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Um...isn't one of the gun-lovers' mottos "When seconds count, police are only minutes away?" But Martin was supposed to call the police, for a guy who was following him?

No, see, that self-defense motto is only for the white/conservative/gun owners. For everyone else it's tough ****.
 
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Um...isn't one of the gun-lovers' mottos "When seconds count, police are only minutes away?" But Martin was supposed to call the police, for a guy who was following him?

It's all a red herring anyway.

There is nothing in Florida's self-defense statute that requires someone to first phone the police before exercising their legal right to defend themselves.

And that same statute quite clearly states that Martin had no duty to retreat. He had the legal right to be where he was. And he had the legal right to defend himself.

And you know what the best part is?

Even after all this hand-waving, denial, and ignorant display of the basic facts and the law, none of it proves Martin criminally assaulted Zimmerman.
 
The smartest location for George to have parked would be at the far end of the path south of the "T" where he could watch both the path and the back entrance. George would never need to get out of his truck.

I have problems with "smartest" and "George" being so closely associated.

It's always bugged me that George never questioned how his actions would have looked to the person he was following.
 
I don't think you understand Florida law, or any law for that matter. You really should educate yourself before you end up in prison for "defending yourself".


I disagree. There is ample evidence that Martin, if he had not been killed, would have won a self defense case under current Florida law.
 
The jury, and the Justice Department.


Whether or not Maritin was justified in defending himself was not a question being looked at by the Justice Department.

This was covered very early on in the original thread. There are situations under current Florida law where both parties can have legal justification for self defense.

Therefore just finding that one was justified does not show that the other party was not.
 
I think there are a couple of pieces of evidence that strongly point toward Trayvon approaching Zimmerman for a pre-planned attack, as opposed to defending himself because Zimmerman reached in his pocket.

To me, Rachel Jeantel not contacting anyone, as in neither police nor even friends/family of Trayvon after supposedly thinking she'd just heard him get tackled by a stalker he was afraid of, and not doing so for a full month... and then actually NEVER voluntarily contacting anyone but instead having to be tracked down via phone records and then having to be pressured into talking even to the Martin family attorney... is simply not consistent with the idea of Trayvon rigorously defending himself after an unexpected and unwanted encounter.

What it IS consistent with is her knowing full well that Trayvon intended to whoop Zimmerman's behind as she put it, and possibly even encouraging him to do so. When the phone went dead as she supposedly heard someone in distress saying "get off me" and the sounds of a tussle, this would not have concerned her at all if she understood it to be the sound of an expected, planned, and relished assault by Trayvon on the snitch cracker who'd been disrespecting him by monitoring his movements.

In an interview with Piers Morgan, she tried to claim "creepy butt cracker" wasn't about perceived race (despite admitting it was at trial) and said instead that it meant "someone actin' like they a security or police." In other words, she seems to be implying that Trayvon understood that Zimmerman's interest in him was out of suspicion and concern and that this was a nosy snitch, not a threatening rapist, abductor, or attacker. You don't attack a nosy snitch out of fear, you attack them out of irritation.

She also said Trayvon said he wasn't going to run. That's consistent with him being free of any real concern that Zimmerman posed any threat to him. It's consistent with Trayvon feeling bold and ready to confront.

Now, if it were true, as some here are suggesting, that Trayvon merely meant to confront the man and demand some answers, but then ended up throwing a punch in reaction to the pocket grab by Zimmerman, then we are confronted with some other problems.

If Trayvon was merely seeking to neutralize a threat and not acting out of anger and exultant violence, he would have called out to Witness 6 (John Good) and said something to that effect and asked for assistance in subduing the threat. His silence and ongoing, single-minded violence, as attested to by that witness, is far more consistent with a violent young criminal lost in his own rage and heedless of consequence or surrounding. Taking out all his built up frustrations.

If you're merely trying to stop a threat, why keep beating them as they put up no fight and scream in terror? If Trayvon suspected the presence of a weapon then why was GZ, who by all evidence was being dominated, ever able to draw and fire the weapon, especially such a direct shot? Why weren't Trayvon's prints on the gun if he knew about it?

As for the old claims about Zimmerman ignoring the dispatcher, the evidence remains consistent with him following the suggestion not to follow further. He said "okay" and then a long span goes by where he doesn't know Trayvon's location and sounds calm and matter of fact, and stationary or slow moving. I note that the person who quoted that exchange left out the part where he said "okay."

Who can offer a reasonable explanation for Jeantel not contacting anyone? The only good explanation for her behavior, hiding, lying, and loathe to testify or even speak with friendly people, is that she knew Trayvon's intent was an attack. That also fits her comments about Zimmerman not having his gun out, him getting whoop butt, him acting like security, and her believing that Trayvon swung first.

The trail of physical evidence and the sounds of the assault were shown by witness testimony and scene examination to have placed the initial point of attack at the T junction, then rapidly moving south.

Also, the implication that being white is an impediment to reaching good conclusions on this case is exactly backward. The African-American community has shown from the outset that it had major problems viewing this case objectively and unemotionally. Those who "sided" with Zimmerman's self defense claim have been vindicated by every evidence or law-based development as this has all unfolded.
 
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I think there are a couple of pieces of evidence that strongly point toward Trayvon approaching Zimmerman for a pre-planned attack, as opposed to defending himself because Zimmerman reached in his pocket.


Like "**** he's running".


Speculation about how someone will react in a particular situation is not evidence of a fact. Perhaps if there were a population study of similar demographics, probable occurrences could be implied. But personal beliefs tainted by bias are far from conclusive.



If Trayvon was merely seeking to neutralize a threat and not acting out of anger and exultant violence, he would have called out to Witness 6 (John Good) and said something to that effect and asked for assistance in subduing the threat. His silence and ongoing, single-minded violence, as attested to by that witness, is far more consistent with a violent young criminal lost in his own rage and heedless of consequence or surrounding. Taking out all his built up frustrations.

If you're merely trying to stop a threat, why keep beating them as they put up no fight and scream in terror?


According to George, the threat had already been subdued at that point. The witness said he was calling the police. There were no injuries to Trayvon thus nothing to instil such presumed violence and rage. The witness only said he saw arms flailing and did not claim to see or hear punches landing. The look on George's face is clear evidence that there was not a prolonged pummeling.

The alternate explanation is that once Trayvon had put George on the ground and gained a position of control he simply maintained that control until one of his neighbors came out.


If Trayvon suspected the presence of a weapon then why was GZ, who by all evidence was being dominated, ever able to draw and fire the weapon, especially such a direct shot? Why weren't Trayvon's prints on the gun if he knew about it?


This is an excelent point. We now know that George carried his weapon under the waistband behind his back. With Trayvon sitting atop him MMA style there is simply no way for George to draw it out while Trayvon is controlling George. If however, Trayvon is relinquishing control and backing off, that gives George access to his gun. He can draw and shoot before trayvon reacts.


As for the old claims about Zimmerman ignoring the dispatcher, the evidence remains consistent with him following the suggestion not to follow further. He said "okay" and then a long span goes by where he doesn't know Trayvon's location and sounds calm and matter of fact, and stationary or slow moving. I note that the person who quoted that exchange left out the part where he said "okay."


Perhaps it is necessary to repost the entire transcript of that dispatcher call each time a portion is discussed. In that same call, George interrupts giving the dispatcher his address saying "I don't know where this kid is". When George gets worried that his conversation could be overheard, is he in the middle of a wide open well lit space near the street light on Retreat View Circle? Or is he perhaps walking past parked cars, bushes and the gaps between buildings. As the call ends, George doesn't know where he will be when the police arrive. the easy answer would be: "I'll be in my truck at the next corner east of the mailboxes". But if George is still on the hunt, he is headed away from his truck and won't know when he'll get back to it.

George has already taken an interest in policing and police procedures. We have already had the discussion on the dispatcher's statement ”we don't need you to do that". The wording of the dispatcher is specifically choosen so as not to be giving a command which would be beyond the authority of the dispatcher. George would understand and acknowledge that he is not proceeding at the request of the police but rather on his own initiative.
 
The witness only said he saw arms flailing and did not claim to see or hear punches landing. The look on George's face is clear evidence that there was not a prolonged pummeling.

This is an important point to address yet another fact-free meme from Zimmerman's fan club.

Between testimony from eye witnesses and medical experts, there was no evidence presented that Zimmerman was beaten or otherwise repeatedly punched by Martin.

Sure, the defense did an excellent job of an insinuating and implying that this is what took place, but at no time did they present evidence to prove it.
 
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Like "**** he's running".

That was perhaps the most insidious part of Martin's dastardly murder plot. Luring Zimmerman into his trap by cleverly running away.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to concoct a fanciful tale based on nothing but speculation and bias about how Zimmerman stalked and murdered Martin, and then present it to the forum as "evidence".
 
Is that all we had, the word of Zimmerman? No other witnesses? No recorded phone calls? No phone records? No physical evidence like a shell casing, blood splatter, bruises?

You know, for all that JAQing and after all this time, you still seem to be unable to support your claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first with actual evidence.

One might start thinking that you don't actually have any evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first.
 
This a simple reconstruction. Trayvon is spooked by George aparently following him and runs into the cut through towards the "T". He turns the corner and finds a hiding spot among the shadows and bushes. Here he waits and watches, speaking in a whisper while George is near. George parks his truck at the entrance to the cut through with the headlights shining towards the "T". he gets out of his truck and heads in the direction he thought the kid went. George goes past the "T" and towards Retreat View Circle where he disappears from Trayvon's sight. After a few minutes, Trayvon believes he has lost George and returns to the path and resumes his trip home, still talking to his girlfriend. Having circled around, George is headed up the path and the two come face to face.
Odd that Trayvon never mentioned running anywhere to Rachel Jeantel, isn't it?

Once again we have an illustration of how the "Zimmerman is a murderer" side has to rely on speculation and facts not in evidence to support their near-religious beliefs, while ignoring the facts that are in evidence.
 
Let's try this again:

Martin walks home at night talking on the phone with his friend.

Zimmerman sits in his car watching Martin.

Martin sees him and runs away.

Zimmerman follows Martin.

Zimmerman makes no attempt to identify himself or announce his intentions.

Zimmerman makes a quick move for his pocket.


Read the above carefully. Follow the sequence of events. Note that last event in particular. The one that occurred just prior to Martin punching Zimmerman.

Now... in that exact scenario I just described taking into consideration everything that happened and the order in which it happened, please explain how is was not reasonable for Martin to believe Zimmerman intended to use imminent unlawful force against him at the moment Martin decided to punch him.

ETA: Also, please, please, please stop conflating "fear" and "believe". It makes you seem dishonest and ignorant, and I would hate for anyone to get the impression about you.
Cool story bro, too bad it's speculation entirely unsupported by the evidence.
 
It's all a red herring anyway.

There is nothing in Florida's self-defense statute that requires someone to first phone the police before exercising their legal right to defend themselves.
No, but that person would have a very hard time convincing a judge or jury they really believed that when they had a phone in hand, lots of time to call the police, but instead decided to talk to a girl 180 miles away instead.

It's nonsensical.
 
You know, for all that JAQing and after all this time, you still seem to be unable to support your claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first with actual evidence.

One might start thinking that you don't actually have any evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first.
No indication Martin was hit by anything but the fatal shot, meanwhile Martin had bruising on his knuckles and Zimmerman had bruises and cuts on his face.

There's lots of evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, none whatsoever that Zimmerman assaulted Martin.
 
No indication Martin was hit by anything but the fatal shot, meanwhile Martin had bruising on his knuckles and Zimmerman had bruises and cuts on his face.
As has been explained to you multiple times, hitting is not the only way to assault someone. Would you like to try again, or just continue to ignore that as per usual?
 
As has been explained to you multiple times, hitting is not the only way to assault someone. Would you like to try again, or just continue to ignore that as per usual?
Please present your evidence that Zimmerman did any sort of assaulting.
 

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