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Does anyone here actually oppose Network Neutrality?

Exactly as many as there has been without the new rules. That's the strawman, don't you see!?

At least NN protects competitive integrity of online content providers. That way, we won't also get Comcast as the only source for online content: Their On-Demand service!

You are all about "competition," but continually fail to see how, exactly, NN PROTECTS competition for the industry of online content. It isn't meant to solve the issue of lack of competition among ISPs.

I agree with your basic point but I think there is still a connection. While NN its own doesn’t solve the competition issue by itself, if it’s something you are interested in some form of NN looks like a prerequisite.

NN is intended to protect free packet exchange between networks is the requirement for internetworking to function. With internetworking anyone could set up an ISP and have its subscribers access the same content as everyone else contacted to the internet. Without internetworking it may even be incorrect to call them Internet Service Providers, because all they are really offering is access to their own private networks. History already tells us the later model doesn’t work.
 
Another very great example of extremely vague claims that was already old since god-knows-when.

Does or does not the government set prices for public utilities?

Case closed.


10mr51s.jpg


Now that we have made the internet a public utility, if you like your internet service provider, you can keep your internet service provider...ASTERISK*

*As long as that public utility internet service provider is the only one that we allow to operate where you live.
 
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Oooh this looks like a fun game!

Electrical companies shouldn't be public utilities: home generators and solar cells/batteries are your alternatives.

Gas companies shouldn't be public utilities: heating oil and propane are your alternatives.

And so you cannot name two electric companies where you live. Or two gas companies you can choose from.

You are proving my point.

Public utilities have this consistent habit of being dwindled down to one provider.

"Net neutrality" is a Trojan horse leading to government-sanctioned monopolies.
 
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And so you cannot name two electric companies where you live. Or two gas companies you can choose from.

You are proving my point.

Public utilities have this consistent habit of being dwindled down to one provider.

"Net neutrality" is a Trojan horse leading to government-sanctioned monopolies.

I have the choice between United Illuminating, Public Power and Dominion Energy where I live (in Connecticut). Whichever provider I choose will send my electricity to me over UI's wires. Kind of like electricity neutrality.
 
You are proving my point.

Public utilities have this consistent habit of being dwindled down to one provider.

"Net neutrality" is a Trojan horse leading to government-sanctioned monopolies.

Funny thing. Before government brokered agreements to freely exchange packets created the modern internet there were lots of private networks that worked a lot like what the NN opponents are proposing.

These private networks didn’t provide much value and they never lead to the explosion of innovation, efficiency and economic growth the “government sanctioned monopoly” we call the Internet created.
 
And so you cannot name two electric companies where you live. Or two gas companies you can choose from.

You are proving my point.

Public utilities have this consistent habit of being dwindled down to one provider.

"Net neutrality" is a Trojan horse leading to government-sanctioned monopolies.

I also only have one cable internet company available, so what's your point?
 
I have the choice between United Illuminating, Public Power and Dominion Energy where I live (in Connecticut). Whichever provider I choose will send my electricity to me over UI's wires. Kind of like electricity neutrality.

Socialism!
 
This Just In: As a way of making a statement about the FCC's ruling, Verizon has released a temper tantrum in morse code: something something stop undoing our lobbying efforts.

I must admit I've had some lingering doubts as to whether there were any stinkers hidden in the FCC's new stance - so often these days policy accomplishes the exact opposite of what it claims to - but any ruling that can make a giant multinational corporation throw a hissy fit like a small child having a meltdown in the mall is alright by me.
 
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I also only have one cable internet company available, so what's your point?

I think it's an argument for more than one Internet. There's just no choice when it comes to Internet. If we had two (or more), the free market competition would make both Internets better. That simple logic worked for Adam Smith's Internet and will work for us.

Now I'm wondering if the pro-choice side has considered entrants like Bing. Cause, you know... choice between OK and "sucks" is still a choice.
 
I think it's an argument for more than one Internet. There's just no choice when it comes to Internet. If we had two (or more), the free market competition would make both Internets better. That simple logic worked for Adam Smith's Internet and will work for us.

Now I'm wondering if the pro-choice side has considered entrants like Bing. Cause, you know... choice between OK and "sucks" is still a choice.

I think the internet is not quite as old as you think it is. Or are you not referring to the 18th century economist??

Multiple internets?!? Are you serious? Or do you mean last mile legislation?

Bing is a search engine, not an ISP.
 
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"Net neutrality" is a Trojan horse leading to government-sanctioned monopolies.


You know, you seem to be obsessed with hidden motivations for which there is no evidence, while ignoring things like this:

Net neutrality "infringes broadband network owners’ constitutional rights," Verizon said in its 2012 argument. "It violates the First Amendment by stripping them of control over the transmission of speech on their networks. And it takes network owners’ property without compensation by mandating that they turn over those networks for the occupation and use of others at a regulated rate of zero, undermining owners’ multi-billion dollar-backed expectations that they would be able to decide how best to employ their networks to serve consumers and deterring network investment. "

"Just as a newspaper is entitled to decide which content to publish and where, broadband providers may feature some content over others," Verizon further said.


As found in the link Beelzebuddy provided:



You're worrying about what hidden motivations the FCC might have, while ignoring the fact that Verizon has explicitly stated they have the right to control everything that goes over their network, period.

I'd take a gamble on a hidden motivation over such an explicit statement, every time.
 
I think the internet is not quite as old as you think it is. Or are you not referring to the 18th century economist??

Multiple internets?!? Are you serious? Or do you mean last mile legislation?

Bing is a search engine, not an ISP.

I'm pretty sure he's being sarcastic...
 
I'm pretty sure he's being sarcastic...

Ahh, I have trouble hearing a sarcastic tone over text, and lost track of who is on which side of the argument. Sarcasm tags should be a requirement in my opinion. For example:

Does or does not the government set prices for public utilities?

Case closed.


[qimg]http://i61.tinypic.com/10mr51s.jpg[/qimg]

Now that we have made the internet a public utility, if you like your internet service provider, you can keep your internet service provider...ASTERISK*

*As long as that public utility internet service provider is the only one that we allow to operate where you live.

<sarcasm>Ahhhhhh, you posted a picture of Obama pointing his finger, and with the phrase "case closed". I have to rethink my opinion.</sarcasm>
 
You're worrying about what hidden motivations the FCC might have, while ignoring the fact that Verizon has explicitly stated they have the right to control everything that goes over their network, period.

I'd take a gamble on a hidden motivation over such an explicit statement, every time.
Yep. They want the advantages of "common carrier" status and none of the responsibilities.

"We take no responsibility for the content that passes through our network but we reserve the right to censor, slow, spindle, fold, and mutilate it."
 
I think the internet is not quite as old as you think it is. Or are you not referring to the 18th century economist??

Multiple internets?!? Are you serious? Or do you mean last mile legislation?

Bing is a search engine, not an ISP.

Tell me you wouldn't pay more for a better Internet if one were available?
 
Tell me you wouldn't pay more for a better Internet if one were available?

The whole point of the internet is for there to be one global network. There cannot be multiple internets out there, that makes no sense at all.

I pay Comcast ~$60 per month for access to the internet, not for their own network.
 
That is a technological problem, and will be solved by technology, not government.

And the FCC ruling prevents this technology....how?

Yet. It's only been one day.

Get this through your head. They are labeling the internet as a public utility. What has been the trend line for government regulation with respect to every other public utility?

Do you really expect the government to stop at "net neutrality" now that is has given itself the tacit power to set prices, for example?

Just look at the people in this topic already clamoring for more rules! In the name of "national security", for God's sake!!!

Fox News, et al., are more often wrong than right about a lot of things. But "net neutrality" is blindingly obvious as a Trojan horse to government regulation of the internet. It doesn't take a genius to see it. That's why even Fox News was able to figure it out.

Interestingly water has been a utility for decades. Strangely enough this works out to our benefit. I get clean water delivered to my home and I don't have to pay too much for it.

If that is the future of the internet then why are we complaining?

Can anyone name a public utility where they live that has more than one company offering the service?

Anyone?

Why, exactly, do you want this?
 
Why, exactly, do you want this?

<sarcasm>Because having 6 different power companies run lines to everyone's house is efficient, and since they are in competition with one another the customer wins. There is no chance at all that one by one they'd all go bankrupt or bought out but one. Nothing at all wrong with power cables everywhere: </sarcasm>

71033655.jpg
 
Ok, but did they actually decide to do such a thing? Has any ISP actually done it? Honestly, maybe I'm blind, but I've never heard of this actually occurring.

I'm willing to be educated, but it sounds like this outrage about "fast lanes," and such is much ado about nothing.

In the USA it has only happened once but the overall context is important to understanding the situation. I've been of the same opinion as the EFF on this issue for the past 15 years, they finally came to the conclusion last year that this FCC action was likely the only way to move forward on the issue.

Back at the end of the last century broadband services where just getting rolling and nearly everyone was on dial-up. At that time network neutrality was not a concern because the connection methods, dial-up, ISDN & DSL were all regulated as common carrier services just like the more commonly used voice and fax on the POTS lines. At first ISDN & DSL weren't required to be open to competitors but rules were changed to mandate the telcos open them up to other companies to encourage competition on those services just like the large variety of competitors for dial-up.

At the close of the century cable systems got into the game but because they were not on POTS lines they were classified as information services and not subject to most regulation beyond technical standards to avoid interference. This led to extensive lobbying by the telcos to have the DSL spectrum of the POTS lines re-classified as an information service to remove most regulation from their services, and they succeeded around 2002.

For a while nobody, including the EFF, was overly concerned with network neutrality because nobody had abused their power yet. However congress was lobbied to put in some protections to ensure every one had an equal chance at getting their data through. EFF and others believed that without congress acting to protect the openness of the Internet someone would eventually abuse it to make more money. Unfortunately the vast majority of congress members ignored the problem and some said that's a job for the FCC. EFF and many other groups were dead set against the FCC getting involved especially because it was troublesome that they might enact censorship against pornography and other types of free speech like they do with broadcast radio and TV.

Around 2005/6 Comcast made the first move to break the concept of network neutrality. They realized that even though their customers weren't violating the terms of service, they could increase their profits substantially by blocking all bit-torrent use on their network. So they configured their routers to block it all and because this was perfectly legal they could not get in trouble for doing it. I suspect they thought that all bit-torrent users were simply content thieves and would have no influence, however the reality was that it was a very popular way to distribute *nix distributions and the public outcry was loud and clear. Comcast bowed to public pressure and removed the blocking.

Having seen this actual breaking of Internet neutrality the EFF and other groups increased their lobbying efforts to get congress to act. Of course congress didn't act and a few other violations of neutrality happened in other countries over the next few years. Congress never did act and eventually the FCC made it's first attempt at imposing network neutrality around 2012. The FCC figured that since no USA broadband providers where currently violating neutrality and where all telling the public they never would that they could get away with a simple rule on information services.

The EFF was certain that the rule would not hold up in court and contrary to the public front they put on Verizon fought it hard through the courts. At the end of 2013/beginning of 2014 Verizon won in court and regained their legal authority to block or limit any content to their customers. This was when the FCC began thinking about re-defining network neutrality to mean the opposite of what everyone else meant. They began proposing rules that would guarantee that all broadband providers could block or limit anything they wanted and could offer special fast lanes for a fee to content providers.

This spurred the huge outcry from citizens and businesses, over 4 million comments to the FCC opposing the proposed rule, and being a public comment driven agency the FCC withdrew it proposal. Even at this stage I, like the EFF, still really wanted congress to act since the only legal way for the FCC to act would leave the potential for over reach on regulations. It was only at the end of 2014 that the EFF finally admitted defeat in getting congress to do their job and they started giving provisional support for Title II re-classification and the neutrality rules based on it that just happened.

At this point the rule changes have only been published for less than a day so there remains much uncertainty about the extent of the FCCs action. Hopefully, as the FCC has stated, they have kept the scope of the rules very narrow and focused but until the experts have a chance to analyze them we can not be certain they didn't over-reach. About the only certainty at this point is that it's a good bet that court challenges will not overturn this new rule due to the re-classification. Another bright spot is that since these are simply FCC rule changes they can be reversed or revised much easier than a law enacted by congress.
 

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