Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Truly the Arrest and Trial of Amanda Knox was a greater travesty of justice than The Trial and Execution of Jesus Christ.

Did you actually read what I posted?

Most crimes are simple. When the cops come up with some grand conspiracy, they need to be very careful.
That is the main thrust of my argument.
 
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It is NOT Rudy's lawyer's job to be fair to Amanda and Raffaele. It is his job to get the best deal possible for his client.

If there ever was a video of Rudy's interrogation (remember: budget cuts!!!!) it was Rudy's lawyer's job to move heaven and earth to prevent it from being shown to Amanda and Raffaele.

I'm serious when I say he would have been derelict in his duty to his client to do otherwise.


That's why wisdom is found in the joke

Q: What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead lawyer in the road?

A: There are skid marks in front of the skunk . . .
 
A real tough nut

A lesser man would have thrown Amanda under the bus and walked away from this mess.

I was going through the phone taps and found one where Raffaele is complaining to a friend that he was hoping for a long term relationship but Amanda is talking about still having an attraction to a former boyfriend. This was only days/hours before Raffaele was imprisoned because of his relationship with Amanda. It would have been so easy to roll over and be free. But Raffaele endured 4 years in prison because his honor would not permit him to condemn an innocent person.

Bravo Raffaele.





That Raffaele was dragged into this at all is one of the greatest injustices of the whole thing. That he has steadfastly not continued the injury to Amanda is remarkable.




I think Raffaele has shown himself to be an incredibly brave and honorable person.




Hmm, he was certainly very brave in a 3 on 1 situation against a young woman when he stabbed her in the neck.

On the other hand on Nov 5/6th he folded very quickly and threw AK under a bus. Haven’t you guys heard about this :jaw-dropp That’s what led to AK falsely accusing an innocent black guy.

In fact RS gave up AK quicker than RG did. Honour Bound eh?

And now? Well, those ties of ‘honour’ which were flimsy at best appear to have been completely severed.
The concept of ‘thieves hanging together or they will definitely hang apart’ seems to no longer apply given that they are all going to ‘hang’.

March 25 (and subsequent moves) will tell a tale - if the recent TV interview is any indication.
 
Hmm, he was certainly very brave in a 3 on 1 situation against a young woman when he stabbed her in the neck.

On the other hand on Nov 5/6th he folded very quickly and threw AK under a bus. Haven’t you guys heard about this :jaw-dropp That’s what led to AK falsely accusing an innocent black guy.

In fact RS gave up AK quicker than RG did. Honour Bound eh?

And now? Well, those ties of ‘honour’ which were flimsy at best appear to have been completely severed.
The concept of ‘thieves hanging together or they will definitely hang apart’ seems to no longer apply given that they are all going to ‘hang’.

March 25 (and subsequent moves) will tell a tale - if the recent TV interview is any indication.

This is a tired meme. Please quote anything from any of the trials where this played a role in the wrongful conviction.

You actually DO need to read Honor Bound.

Then again, you've been shopping around the PMF/Pro-guilt lobby claim that Raffaele threw Amanda under a bus at his press conference.

If you'd bothered to read his appeal document to Cassazione, you would have seen where you went wrong. Obviously you will not point to anything which substantiates anything you've said, other than to repeat your claim.

Please watch the Italian TV piece posted above, and show where Raffaele throws Amanda under a bus in that?
 
platonov said:
Hmm, he was certainly very brave in a 3 on 1 situation against a young woman when he stabbed her in the neck.

And the evidence you have of this is??? (We'll wait). :confused:

It is Nencini's theory that Amanda did that action. The strange thing is that the forensics support neither platonov nor Nencini. But it is good to see that they disagree on a major issue.
 
Truly the Arrest and Trial of Amanda Knox was a greater travesty of justice than The Trial and Execution of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure you can equate the two, except that they both happened under the same jurisdiction.....
 
Bill Williams said:
It is NOT Rudy's lawyer's job to be fair to Amanda and Raffaele. It is his job to get the best deal possible for his client.

I believe screwing over other defendants, especially those who are not guilty, is consider unethical for a defense attorney. Suggesting alternative defendants is a bit different than providing or assisting with false testimony.

You make it sound so unseemly.

Court attorneys also are bound to take instruction from their clients, and then give them the fullest and most vigorous defence possible. Rudy's attorney would have been derelict NOT to fight tooth and nail to keep Rudy's videotaped interrogations out of the courtroom....

..... oh wait. Budget cuts. Rudy and his lawyer caught a break.
 
You make it sound so unseemly.

Court attorneys also are bound to take instruction from their clients, and then give them the fullest and most vigorous defence possible. Rudy's attorney would have been derelict NOT to fight tooth and nail to keep Rudy's videotaped interrogations out of the courtroom....

..... oh wait. Budget cuts. Rudy and his lawyer caught a break.

This doesn't make sense to me.

A lawyer would always want a record of what their client said, I would think. How could they defend against a police version otherwise?

And lawyers are not technically allowed to lie, or deceive the courts or the other parties, at least in the US.

So what happens is, they invent 50 words for "lie", lay them out on a graduated scale, and measure what's appropriate.

They can't misrepresent something they know. They can however apply a level of skeptical thinking that approaches mysticism.

The most fascinating constant I have found among defense attorneys in particular, is the more expensive they are, the less they "know".
 
You make it sound so unseemly.

Court attorneys also are bound to take instruction from their clients, and then give them the fullest and most vigorous defence possible. Rudy's attorney would have been derelict NOT to fight tooth and nail to keep Rudy's videotaped interrogations out of the courtroom....

..... oh wait. Budget cuts. Rudy and his lawyer caught a break.

I may have lost my train of discussion here. . . . .Did Guede ever testify under oath or sign anything that Amanda and/or Raffaele were at the murder of Meredeth? Any meanderings of his should never have been used in court.
 
tsig said:
Truly the Arrest and Trial of Amanda Knox was a greater travesty of justice than The Trial and Execution of Jesus Christ.

tsig,

This comment is a non sequitur.

Not really. Coming into Jerusalem during Passover was a provocative act. Riding in on one side of the city on a donkey while the Roman governor was riding in on the other side on a white stallion was high parody.

Passover was the Jewish celebration of freedom from slavery, a celebration whose point was not lost on the Romans. Extra troops always were needed as pilgrims from all over flocked to the city to hear the latest eschatological preacher make veiled references to their occupation.

The Romans had every reason to be wary of the intrepid band of followers who defied temple taxes and overturned tables, while the street was a tinderbox waiting for a spark. Best just to decapitate the movement by grabbing the leader late Thursday night, and he was gone by Friday noon. Gotta hand it to those Romans, they knew how to smell out a rebellion and quickly quash it.

In a sense, though, tsig is right - there was absolutely NO reason to suspect Knox, once she'd been eliminated as a keyholder, and the break-in turned out to be a real one, done by a professional burglar even Judge Nencini said used a recognizable M.O. Heck, even Rudy said that it was Meredith who let him into the cottage anyways!
 
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I do not often venture onto other websites discussing this case. But I did do today, and I found someone called Jackie saying this;

"1) I'll start with a common refrain among the Groupies: 'If there's no DNA from AK in the "murder room", she's innocent.'

There are a lot of studies out there showing that people often leave no DNA on objects they touch, but I was quite interested when I found this particular study because it involved not just a gentle handling of objects but rough and tumble simulations of bare-fingered strangulation:
Rutty GN. "An investigation into the transference and survivability of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation with consideration of the problem of third party contamination." Int. J. Legal Med. (2002) 116: 170-173

Despite the violence of the simulated struggles, the male "perps" only left their DNA behind in ~ 7 of the 29 strangulations....2) Now, as important as studies of that kind are to understanding the case, I think Dr. Mull's contribution has been the most important. He opened my eyes to the truly surprising proposition that never, not even once, in the history of genetic research, has anyone proven that tertiary transfer of touch DNA occurs"

It is so sad when people misquote papers to support their view In fact the conclusions of the paper say the exact opposite - I apologise for quoting at length.

'Having made these observations and comments, care
must now be expressed in the interpretation of the source
of the DNA on the victim and offender and the time peri-
ods of survival. One control neck test (the 10-day control)
yielded a partial profile of the offender and eight control
finger swabs (up to 5 days) yielded a partial profile of the
victim despite the fact that the offenders control fingers
never came in direct contact with the victim. Finally, par-
tial profiles of one or more third parties were amplified
from both test and both control sites for up to 10 days. In
most cases where this occurred, the unknown profile was
the same. No third party profiles arose from the amplifi-
cation laboratory.
The explanation for these observations is that of sec-
ondary/tertiary transfer. A likely source for both the vic-
tim and third party DNA material were inanimate objects
handled by both individuals within the building. Thus the
finger pads of the offender may not only transfer of-
fender’s DNA onto the skin of their victim and vice versa
but also transfers third party DNA from objects or the
third party themselves, which the offender handled prior
to contact with the skin of the victim. This would explain
the observation of unknown profiles upon the neck of the
victim at the site of contact as well as both hands of the
offender. Thus DNA from an innocent person could be
amplified from the hands of the offender or the site of
contact on the skin of the victim. "

So the very paper (s)he quotes provides evidence of tertiary transfer!

There are lots of papers documenting tertiary transfer e.g.
Evaluation of multiple transfer of DNA using mock case scenarios.
Goray M; Mitchell JR; van Oorschot RA.
Legal Medicine. 14(1):40-6, 2012

one of three simulated crimes
A husband and wife both had nose bleeds and used the same towel to dry their faces prior to walking the dog in the park. While walking, the wife became tired and stayed behind, while the husband continued to walk with the dog. The wife was then strangled and stabbed. Gloves and the knife found at the crime scene revealed both the husband’s and an unknown person’s DNA. The defence postulated that the husband’s DNA was present on the exhibits due to tertiary or further transfer: the husband’s blood (nosebleed) was transferred to the towel, then to the wife’s face and subsequently to the gloves and the knife used by the perpetrator.

The results demonstrated DNA transfer could occur to the gloves and knife.

See also
The transfer of touch DNA from hands to glass, fabric and wood
Original Research Article
Forensic Science International: Genetics, Volume 6, Issue 1, January 2012, Pages 41-46
Dyan J. Daly, Charlotte Murphy, Sean D. McDermott

Where one finding was..
"The phenomenon of secondary transfer was observed when mixed DNA profiles were obtained but the incidence was low at approximately 10% of the total number of samples. DNA profiles corresponding to more than one person were found on objects which had been touched by only one volunteer. "
 
Even more disturbing than misquoting studies to support an untenable position is the willingness to admit that there is no physical evidence and still think it's okay to convict someone of murder.

It's not even merely reminiscent of medieval witch hunts - it's literally the same.
 
YSTR and strangulation studies

Planigale,

I covered some related issues in a blog entry. I am always baffled when I read a PG person write that only two out of three simulated strangulations leaves a DNA deposit, or some such thing. In addition, it seems to me that Dr. Rutty's studies should be performed again, this time using YSTR kits (which may not have been as common when he was doing his studies), with a man as the (simulated) killer and a woman as the (simulated) victim. The use of Y chromosomal testing would circumvent a problem with conventional autosomal testing. When a woman's profile and a man's autosomal DNA are mixed, the women's profile may mask the man's if it is in high enough proportion.

With respect to tertiary transfer there is also a 2013 article "Following the transfer of DNA: How far can it go?" The authors wrote, "Our findings show evidence of secondary and subsequent DNA transfer. Depending on moisture and substrate, some biological source types did not transfer further than the primary or secondary substrate, while others transferred through to the 6th substrate. DNA transferred from and to glass further than from and to cotton..." On glass "Touch DNA produced a full profile on the 1st glass substrate only, and partial profiles on the 2nd to the 5th substrate, but was not detected further." I would like to know what their limit of detection was. If they were not attempting to detect low copy number DNA, then low copy DNA might be still be detected after even more transfers.
 
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Even more disturbing than misquoting studies to support an untenable position is the willingness to admit that there is no physical evidence and still think it's okay to convict someone of murder.

It's not even merely reminiscent of medieval witch hunts - it's literally the same.


Not only is there no DNA evidence, there is no fingerprint evidence, no footprint/shoe print evidence, no motive, very narrow to no window of opportunity matching the likely TOD . . .
 
Thor Klamet writes about irrationality. The case against AK and RS has been focussed in his sites. I wonder if the pro-guilt-lobby will attack him!

The Marching Morons

Thor Klamet said:
The Italian supreme court reinstated a decision so utterly devoid of logic that the best way to argue against it is to quote it. I don’t know if Kornbluth would say, “I didn’t actually think it would happen,” or if he would say, “I told you so.” He’s dead, so we can’t ask him.

Today, the not quite so delectable Knox can still be found in tabloid photographs living her ordinary life in the United States. She is quite safe here as our judicial system contains far too much rationality for the Italians’ taste. That is, there’s no way they would request extradition in the case because they risk exposure. Here’s what will happen in a few weeks; remember, you heard it here first.

Knox’s conviction will stand. Solecito’s conviction will be thrown out for lack of evidence. Italy will decline to request extradition. Case closed. Those were the two words used by the police chief at his jubilant press conference in 2007 when the terrible loss of Meredith Kercher was still fresh.​

Note: added emphasis not in original.

Thor Klamet is a physicist (PhD 1992, University of Colorado) and independent educator. A former college professor, he now does online tutoring in physics, chemistry, and math. Writing is a hobby at the moment although he has written articles for a magazine called “The World & I.” Thor and his wife live in Vermont. Thor Klamet is a pen name.

Thor writes about irrationality in general. He finds it amusing that obviously-correct theories like continental drift are often resisted for decades even after unassailable proof has accumulated.
 
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I do not often venture onto other websites discussing this case. But I did do today, and I found someone called Jackie saying this;

"1) I'll start with a common refrain among the Groupies: 'If there's no DNA from AK in the "murder room", she's innocent.'

There are a lot of studies out there showing that people often leave no DNA on objects they touch, but I was quite interested when I found this particular study because it involved not just a gentle handling of objects but rough and tumble simulations of bare-fingered strangulation:
Rutty GN. "An investigation into the transference and survivability of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation with consideration of the problem of third party contamination." Int. J. Legal Med. (2002) 116: 170-173

Despite the violence of the simulated struggles, the male "perps" only left their DNA behind in ~ 7 of the 29 strangulations....2) Now, as important as studies of that kind are to understanding the case, I think Dr. Mull's contribution has been the most important. He opened my eyes to the truly surprising proposition that never, not even once, in the history of genetic research, has anyone proven that tertiary transfer of touch DNA occurs"

It is so sad when people misquote papers to support their view In fact the conclusions of the paper say the exact opposite - I apologise for quoting at length.

'Having made these observations and comments, care
must now be expressed in the interpretation of the source
of the DNA on the victim and offender and the time peri-
ods of survival. One control neck test (the 10-day control)
yielded a partial profile of the offender and eight control
finger swabs (up to 5 days) yielded a partial profile of the
victim despite the fact that the offenders control fingers
never came in direct contact with the victim. Finally, par-
tial profiles of one or more third parties were amplified
from both test and both control sites for up to 10 days. In
most cases where this occurred, the unknown profile was
the same. No third party profiles arose from the amplifi-
cation laboratory.
The explanation for these observations is that of sec-
ondary/tertiary transfer. A likely source for both the vic-
tim and third party DNA material were inanimate objects
handled by both individuals within the building. Thus the
finger pads of the offender may not only transfer of-
fender’s DNA onto the skin of their victim and vice versa
but also transfers third party DNA from objects or the
third party themselves, which the offender handled prior
to contact with the skin of the victim. This would explain
the observation of unknown profiles upon the neck of the
victim at the site of contact as well as both hands of the
offender. Thus DNA from an innocent person could be
amplified from the hands of the offender or the site of
contact on the skin of the victim. "

So the very paper (s)he quotes provides evidence of tertiary transfer!

There are lots of papers documenting tertiary transfer e.g.
Evaluation of multiple transfer of DNA using mock case scenarios.
Goray M; Mitchell JR; van Oorschot RA.
Legal Medicine. 14(1):40-6, 2012

one of three simulated crimes
A husband and wife both had nose bleeds and used the same towel to dry their faces prior to walking the dog in the park. While walking, the wife became tired and stayed behind, while the husband continued to walk with the dog. The wife was then strangled and stabbed. Gloves and the knife found at the crime scene revealed both the husband’s and an unknown person’s DNA. The defence postulated that the husband’s DNA was present on the exhibits due to tertiary or further transfer: the husband’s blood (nosebleed) was transferred to the towel, then to the wife’s face and subsequently to the gloves and the knife used by the perpetrator.

The results demonstrated DNA transfer could occur to the gloves and knife.

See also
The transfer of touch DNA from hands to glass, fabric and wood
Original Research Article
Forensic Science International: Genetics, Volume 6, Issue 1, January 2012, Pages 41-46
Dyan J. Daly, Charlotte Murphy, Sean D. McDermott

Where one finding was..
"The phenomenon of secondary transfer was observed when mixed DNA profiles were obtained but the incidence was low at approximately 10% of the total number of samples. DNA profiles corresponding to more than one person were found on objects which had been touched by only one volunteer. "

Interesting, however not at all surprising--Jackie almost always misquotes/mischaracterizes everything.
 
Thor Klamet writes about irrationality. The case against AK and RS has been focussed in his sites. I wonder if the pro-guilt-lobby will attack him!

The Marching Morons

Thor Klamet is a physicist (PhD 1992, University of Colorado) and independent educator. A former college professor, he now does online tutoring in physics, chemistry, and math. Writing is a hobby at the moment although he has written articles for a magazine called “The World & I.” Thor and his wife live in Vermont. Thor Klamet is a pen name.

Thor writes about irrationality in general. He finds it amusing that obviously-correct theories like continental drift are often resisted for decades even after unassailable proof has accumulated.

If they do as suggested at the bottom, they will be panned and I think even a number of pro guilt will turn against them (He suggests at the end that they will find Amanda but not Raff guilty)
 
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