Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Just curious. Anyone here find the highlighted section above believable? Has anyone here, or anyone you know, ever gotten to the point Rudy says he and Meredith got to, then decided to stop?

It's not impossible, but strikes me as very unlikely. My perception is that it is his way of explaining how his DNA got inside Meredith, while still claiming all was hunky dory about this, and that he did not kill her.

The only way to make sense of Rudy's ever evolving description of his crime, is to see it in the context of before he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini, and after he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini.

While in Germany, before he knew he was in the sights of the PLE, he had to tell a story that did not include Amanda or Raffaele, but still had to account for some unknown. Why?

1) He knew Amanda was not involved. So to describe the scene he had to adopt what is called a "limited hangout". He knew they'd eventually absolve Amanda so he could not be seen as lying. But he had to put himself there, because he knew his forensics would be found.... even inside the victim.

2) He then arrives in chains in Perugia. What I'd like to see is the videotape of his interrogation - with his lawyer present, both of which are conditions of his interrogation given that he is suspect #1 in this horrid crime.​

What? There is no video of Rudy's interrogation? You know, the one where he comes to the ever evolving notion that he's just won the sweepstakes - they pan on pinning this all on Amanda!

Yet ever hedging his bets, and perhaps under very competent legal advice once his lawyer sees how the PLE is going to cut him a break, he all-but names Amanda and Raffaele. All but - and never under conditions which allow cross examination.

Well played, Rudy, well played.

 

[Magister]

Hi all,
Using the photographs that Magister linked above,
I zoomed in on both the probable gate intercom system and the front door buzzer, have a look:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9534[/qimg]

I'll speculate that the gate intercom has a speaker for speaking into and for hearing from.


Here's a zoom in of the possible door buzzer, there are no voice + hearing speakers seen:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9535[/qimg]
I do not know what the digital screen would be for though, do you?

I feel that both are part of the same system,
leading to the phone seen below on the left wall of the foyer,
err, front doorway entrance, which apparently did not work:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9536[/qimg]

What do you guys think?

Hi RW
That is not a digital screen above the doorbell.... totally in the wrong position anyway if it was to serve any purpose for anyone inside the apartment!
Just an electric doorbell.

There are several contemporaneous pics of the intercom system at the entrance gate .
I've had such a system in the past.

 

[Bill Williams]

It should be also noted that while Machiavelli disparaged them, Drs. Conti and Vecchiotti are court appointed experts not defense experts.
That is if I understand correctly?

Yes, but according to Machiavelli, they were appointed by Judge Hellmann, who M. says is a corrupt judge in the thrall of the international Masonic conspiracy and a love of fast cars.

Not only that, but that Wladimiro De Nunzio, presidente Corte d'Appello di Perugia, is also a criminal, according to Machiavelli.

This bears repeating.....

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi RW
That is not a digital screen above the doorbell.... totally in the wrong position anyway if it was to serve any purpose for anyone inside the apartment!
Just a doorbell.

There are several contemporaneous pics of the intercom system at the entrance gate .
I've had such systems in the past.

Hi Magister,
Great to read another of us old timers posts when I check in sometimes,
thanks for the links, that door buzzer photo was hi-rez, so zooming in kept it kinda sharp still. The PMF 1 was too, so it helps us in debate.

I figured that someone in England or The EU would know if that was a digital display above the buzzer button, thanks to lonepinealex and Magister for clearing that up.

Is it true that the intercom gate security system did not work?
RW

 

[Dougm]

The only way to make sense of Rudy's ever evolving description of his crime, is to see it in the context of before he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini, and after he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini.

While in Germany, before he knew he was in the sights of the PLE, he had to tell a story that did not include Amanda or Raffaele, but still had to account for some unknown. Why?

1) He knew Amanda was not involved. So to describe the scene he had to adopt what is called a "limited hangout". He knew they'd eventually absolve Amanda so he could not be seen as lying. But he had to put himself there, because he knew his forensics would be found.... even inside the victim.

2) He then arrives in chains in Perugia. What I'd like to see is the videotape of his interrogation - with his lawyer present, both of which are conditions of his interrogation given that he is suspect #1 in this horrid crime.​

What? There is no video of Rudy's interrogation? You know, the one where he comes to the ever evolving notion that he's just won the sweepstakes - they pan on pinning this all on Amanda!

Yet ever hedging his bets, and perhaps under very competent legal advice once his lawyer sees how the PLE is going to cut him a break, he all-but names Amanda and Raffaele. All but - and never under conditions which allow cross examination.

Well played, Rudy, well played.

I think it is obvious he was playing it the way you say, but, inevitably, he tripped up in certain areas. That is why I highlighted the section earlier that I did.

I've heard of many rape and/or rape murder crimes over the years, and the perp almost always tells a similar story. He was there by invitation of the victim, they had sex, he went home, but she was alive when he left her. But Rudy has a more complicated story to tell, because he knows that they are going to find his DNA inside her, and his prints in her blood. I just found it interesting that he opted to say, as part of his "I was in the bathroom" story, that he and Meredith got to the point of consensual manual stimulation, but then said to each other, "you know, this isn't right! Let's stop here ... we don't really know each other." I guess it's possible, but I see that as where Rudy's lie jumps the shark in order to explain BOTH the DNA inside her, and his dump left in the toilet. It's a tricky web he is trying to weave, and he is doing some guessing about what they must have found evidence-wise.

 

[Dan O.]

Hi all,
Using the photographs that Magister linked above,
I zoomed in on both the probable gate intercom system and the front door buzzer, have a look:

I'll speculate that the gate intercom has a speaker for speaking into and for hearing from.

What I see in that photo is a possibly new unit, no names on the buttons, and in the background the outer shutter on Filomena's window is partially open. The candle indicates this is after the murder. There are no police present so after the 7th and the window is not sealed so after the cottage was released back to the homeowner to make repairs and ready the unit for new tenants.

Here's a zoom in of the possible door buzzer, there are no voice + hearing speakers seen:
I do not know what the digital screen would be for though, do you?

What you think is a digital display could be a speaker grill.

I feel that both are part of the same system,
leading to the phone seen below on the left wall of the foyer,
err, front doorway entrance, which apparently did not work:

What do you guys think?

They very well could be part of one system. But I was searching "multi-tenant door intercom" and didn't see any 3 part systems.


So, did some idiot from PMF travel all the way to Perugia to take a photo of that intercom and not bother to get a decent image or record the make and model?

 

[Dan O.]

Is it true that the intercom gate security system did not work?
RW

I had not heard of that. The phone of course would not work for calling emergency services. But Rudy doesn't say the phone didn't work. He said he didn't know where a phone was.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think it is obvious he was playing it the way you say, but, inevitably, he tripped up in certain areas. That is why I highlighted the section earlier that I did.

I've heard of many rape and/or rape murder crimes over the years, and the perp almost always tells a similar story. He was there by invitation of the victim, they had sex, he went home, but she was alive when he left her. But Rudy has a more complicated story to tell, because he knows that they are going to find his DNA inside her, and his prints in her blood. I just found it interesting that he opted to say, as part of his "I was in the bathroom" story, that he and Meredith got to the point of consensual manual stimulation, but then said to each other, "you know, this isn't right! Let's stop here ... we don't really know each other." I guess it's possible, but I see that as where Rudy's lie jumps the shark in order to explain BOTH the DNA inside her, and his dump left in the toilet. It's a tricky web he is trying to weave, and he is doing some guessing about what they must have found evidence-wise.

Rudy is making his best guess as to what he can argue, and what he has to admit. This is the very definition of a "limited hangout", in exactly the same way the Watergate crew used it, and in exactly the same way that Machiavelli (upthread) had to manoeuvre a narrative to excuse.....

..... that Stefanoni did not release the EDFs to the defence.

Machiavelli knows EXACTLY the meaning of Article 111 of the Italian Constitution - full disclosure. So he has to invent this scenario - a limited hangout - where Stefanoni was fully willing to release the EDFs, with conditions.

The main condition, really, was that the defence not proceed with calling her a criminal once they saw what the EDFs meant - that Stefanoni's DNA-analysis was junk, and she knew it was junk when she testified in court.

And given that Italian Judges look favourably on police-"experts" and their reputations, the judge in question took Stefanoni's side. The judge, in effect, ruled that she doesn't have to make full disclosure of evidence if you're going to call Stefanoni names as a result. You may hurt her feelings.

Similarly Rudy. A limited hangout, including as you saw an accounting for digital penetration (consensual, acc. to him) of the victim, which had to stop to allow him to further account for a necessary time-lag, and separating that act with the murder. He had to reorder the timing of the dump in the toilet, with the next admitted contact with the victim - which he now claimed was for when he was trying to save her life with towels!

All to mask that it was he, himself, who had knifed her. The claimed consensual digital penetration could not be admitted to have happened in concert with the knife attack. That's why his hang-out is limited, there's stuff he simply cannot admit to.

And if he was trying to rush to her aid to save her, why then is his DNA and HIS DNA ALONE in Meredith's purse where the cellphones were where he could have dialed 112?

He changed his pants, and went dancing instead.

This is the man that Mignini, Machiavelli, the PMF bunch are trying to protect.

 

[RWVBWL]

I had not heard of that. The phone of course would not work for calling emergency services. But Rudy doesn't say the phone didn't work. He said he didn't know where a phone was.

Hi Dan O.,
Don't trust my word on this,
I'm going off memory, which we all know can be, well you know,
hahaha...

Anyways,
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the phone did not work,
so that means, ah, in my surfer mind, that the gate, if it was capable of being unlocked by buzzer, wasn't working.

But hey,
what do I know?
Esh I've gotten stoned sometimes in the last 7 years since Amanda was arrested for bringing over a huuge kichen knife from her new boyfriend [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE]'s flat and stabbing it, only halfway to the hilt - (who does that?), 3 times in quick succession in her girl friends, err, housemates throat as her new boyfriend helped hold Meredith down as another man raped her.

Maybe I'm weird too, heck ain't we all(!),
but I find it strange that the Meredith that had recently drawn a tattoo on Amanda and sent her a X in text on Halloween.

RW

 

[Dougm]

All to mask that it was he, himself, who had knifed her. The claimed consensual digital penetration could not be admitted to have happened in concert with the knife attack. That's why his hang-out is limited, there's stuff he simply cannot admit to.

I think you nailed it. Oh what a tangled web we weave ...

Actually, a somewhat impressive attempt to explain all the evidence, while still creating a "but I'm innocent" story. The only reason anyone fell for any of it, however, was in their rush to find a way to include Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[RWVBWL]

Rudy Guede + The Drug Dealers

2 days after being let go for the Milan Nursery School incident,
where he was found with a huuuge kitchen knife on him and stolen goods too,
mere days before Miss Meredith Kercher was murdered + raped,
I gotta wonder:
Why was Rudy Guede busted by Italian Law Enforcement hangin' out
with a group of drug dealers and some Africans' drug in his pocket.
???

From an old, often overlooked posting by another old timer, Malkmus:
"The squad re-read the file of Rudy. Only five days before the discovery of Meredith's body was caught in a nursery in Milan with a knife in the kitchen of the school and took his white laptop. "I was at the station when a South American offered me a bed for 50 euros - had told the police in Milan - I did come here." Had denounced him and let him go and then stop it again two days later with a group of drug dealers and some Africans' drug in his pocket. From the Milan Furniture are now know that long ago had noticed in the most fashionable nightclubs"


Where's Machiavelli or Vibio when ya need a real Italian to English translation???
For this story is not from The Daily Mail,
it's from la Repubblica:

Link:
http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html


ETA - What's the real story on this bust?
Questions, questions, questions!

Who are the drug dealers that Rudy Guede was busted hangin' out with? Was 1 named Hekuran Kokomani?
Didn't Rudy and Hekuran, (who was in his 30's IIRC) work together at 1 time at a restaurant?
What are these drug dealers names, where were these drug dealers stopped?
And what kinda drugs did Rudy Guede have in his pocket?

For some reason, in my mind,
being stopped with drugs in your pocket does not imply that it is marijuana...

 

[Desert Fox]

I think you nailed it. Oh what a tangled web we weave ...

Actually, a somewhat impressive attempt to explain all the evidence, while still creating a "but I'm innocent" story. The only reason anyone fell for any of it, however, was in their rush to find a way to include Amanda and Raffaele.

With the cases of wrongful conviction, in many cases the actual crime is simple and involve a single perpetrator.
This case, it is just Guede who did it. This kind of crime, with variation, is not that uncommon. Granted, it only happens a few times a year but still.
The Norfolk Four. it is just Omar Ballard who did the crime.
West Memphis Three, it is most likely a single perpetrator crime as well.
With the murder of David Camm, it was just Charles Boney who committed the crime.

 

[Dan O.]

Rudy is making his best guess as to what he can argue, and what he has to admit. This is the very definition of a "limited hangout".

Rudy's manufacture of his hangout probably ended with the Skype call. Even the diary written while in prison in Germany may have been influenced by the attorney that came to visit him.

I've always wondered about the jacket and cap with the red stripe. Did Rudy invent these as non-specific details to make his story seem more real? Or did his attorney have details or photos from the police search of Raffaele's apartment and fed those to Rudy in order to get his client off and pin the murder on Raffaele?

 

[sept79]

Yes, but according to Machiavelli, they (Drs. Conti and Vecchiotti who are court appointed experts not defense experts) were appointed by Judge Hellmann, who M. says is a corrupt judge in the thrall of the international Masonic conspiracy and a love of fast cars.

Not only that, but that Wladimiro De Nunzio, presidente Corte d'Appello di Perugia, is also a criminal, according to Machiavelli.

This bears repeating.....

So, Italian justice discounts the findings of Conti-Vecchiotti and reverts back to the demonstrated fraudulence of (dr.) Steffanoni. Reads like a TV drama . . .

 

[carbonjam72]

Thank you for your correction: not only was the blade tested for blood, it was tested 3 times. It was tested 2 times by Patrizia Stefanoni, and 1 time by Drs. Conti and Vecchiotti. {If I write this enough times, I may be able to remember it!}

ETA: Which tests did Stefanoni use, and at what blade locations?

Not sure if anyone has suggested, but sending the author a note and links, wondering if he would be open to revising his work to reflect accuracy of actual evidence.

Seems like someone who put that much effort into a careful analysis would be loath to miss so directly an evidential fact.

 

[carbonjam72]

The only way to make sense of Rudy's ever evolving description of his crime, is to see it in the context of before he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini, and after he was in the grips of PLE/Mignini.

While in Germany, before he knew he was in the sights of the PLE, he had to tell a story that did not include Amanda or Raffaele, but still had to account for some unknown. Why?

1) He knew Amanda was not involved. So to describe the scene he had to adopt what is called a "limited hangout". He knew they'd eventually absolve Amanda so he could not be seen as lying. But he had to put himself there, because he knew his forensics would be found.... even inside the victim.

2) He then arrives in chains in Perugia. What I'd like to see is the videotape of his interrogation - with his lawyer present, both of which are conditions of his interrogation given that he is suspect #1 in this horrid crime.​

What? There is no video of Rudy's interrogation? You know, the one where he comes to the ever evolving notion that he's just won the sweepstakes - they pan on pinning this all on Amanda!

Yet ever hedging his bets, and perhaps under very competent legal advice once his lawyer sees how the PLE is going to cut him a break, he all-but names Amanda and Raffaele. All but - and never under conditions which allow cross examination.

Well played, Rudy, well played.

This is actually incredibly unfair to Amanda and Raf, to prevent them from having access to Rudy's actual statements, and see how they morph over time.

Does anyone know offhand, if Rudy's Skype call was admitted into evidence, and if so, how the various judges wrapped their heads around Rudy saying, "Amanda had nothing to do with it"?

 

[Bill Williams]

This is actually incredibly unfair to Amanda and Raf, to prevent them from having access to Rudy's actual statements, and see how they morph over time.
Does anyone know offhand, if Rudy's Skype call was admitted into evidence, and if so, how the various judges wrapped their heads around Rudy saying, "Amanda had nothing to do with it"?

It is NOT Rudy's lawyer's job to be fair to Amanda and Raffaele. It is his job to get the best deal possible for his client.

If there ever was a video of Rudy's interrogation (remember: budget cuts!!!!) it was Rudy's lawyer's job to move heaven and earth to prevent it from being shown to Amanda and Raffaele.

I'm serious when I say he would have been derelict in his duty to his client to do otherwise.

 

[Desert Fox]

It is NOT Rudy's lawyer's job to be fair to Amanda and Raffaele. It is his job to get the best deal possible for his client.

I believe screwing over other defendants, especially those who are not guilty, is consider unethical for a defense attorney. Suggesting alternative defendants is a bit different than providing or assisting with false testimony.

 

[Numbers]

Numbers,

To the best of my knowledge the knife was tested three times for blood, twice by Mrs. Stefanoni and once by Drs. Conti and Vecchiotti. In all cases it was negative. This is one of the strongest reasons for believing that the DNA that was observed was not actually present on the blade itself. How could one clean a knife of blood but not of DNA.

I just did a quick read of part 8 this morning. He does not discuss the additional alleles found on the clasp, unless I missed it.

Thank you for your correction: not only was the blade tested for blood, it was tested 3 times. It was tested 2 times by Patrizia Stefanoni, and 1 time by Drs. Conti and Vecchiotti. {If I write this enough times, I may be able to remember it!}

ETA: Which tests did Stefanoni use, and at what blade locations?

I reread relevant sections of the C-V report. They performed a colorimetric presumptive test for blood using a TMB kit with test strips (Combur Test E). They tested all the locations identified by Stefanoni (locations A - G; A, D, and F on handle, B, C, E, and G on blade) and two additional ones. The additional locations H and I were on the line of contact between the blade and handle, on either side of the knife. The TMB test was negative for all locations. That is, there was no indication of any blood (human or non-human) on the knife. Furthermore, a cytological analysis was done for all locations, and there were no cells identified by cytocentrifugation of sample swatches followed by microscopy; plant starch granules and inorganic deposits were observed. (The starch granules are consistent with use in a kitchen for preparation of fruits and vegetables.)

 

[tsig]

With the cases of wrongful conviction, in many cases the actual crime is simple and involve a single perpetrator.
This case, it is just Guede who did it. This kind of crime, with variation, is not that uncommon. Granted, it only happens a few times a year but still.
The Norfolk Four. it is just Omar Ballard who did the crime.
West Memphis Three, it is most likely a single perpetrator crime as well.
With the murder of David Camm, it was just Charles Boney who committed the crime.

Truly the Arrest and Trial of Amanda Knox was a greater travesty of justice than The Trial and Execution of Jesus Christ.