Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Jar from PMF just posted this:

The British government has been silent on the matter of extradition to date but why need they say anything at this stage? It knows that extradition is not a prospect without a final conviction.

It will also wait whilst extradition proceedings trundle through the US Courts.

The British government obviously has an interest because the murder victim was a British citizen and I have no doubt it will regard the final conviction (whether right or wrong - a matter on which it is not really appropriate for it to express a view) as being the result of meticulous and fair proceedings by the judiciary of an ally and fellow member state of the EU.

I would expect discreet soundings to be made (if they have not already) should Knox support gain traction with the american media whilst the extradition process is ongoing and only then, if there is any doubt, would a firm point of view be expressed but then again this will be done quietly.

That should be an appropriate point in time for the British Prime Minister to be put on the spot at Prime Minister's Question Time in Parliament. Failing that he is likely to keep his head down and just await whatever is decided.

Just asking the question - seeking clarification of the British government's point of view - and with the expected answer being along the above lines - might help chill some of the nonsense that some (thanks dgfred!) of the american media might be spouting.

There will of course surely be British media interest as well and hence a number of MPs willing to put the question.

In the event that there is inexplicably a lack of interest among them I will certainly collar my local MP, who also happens to be the Kercher's local MP, to harangue and shame him into taking action. It won't come to that unfortunately but that's something I would really, really like to do.


I always assumed he was American.


Maybe Anglolawyer or LondonJohn or other English people can parse this.

ETA

"meticulous and fair proceedings"

Oh my.
We are making no progress, Jar is a lawyer I believe.

Jar is a conveyancing solicitor, James Raper, who practise(d) not that far from me. I can't find his firm's web-site any more so he may have retired or moved on. What you have quoted means nothing to me because:

A I am not interested and
B I think Jar's speculations on the attitude of the British Government (assuming it has one) are probably worthless
 
Jar is a conveyancing solicitor, James Raper, who practise(d) not that far from me. I can't find his firm's web-site any more so he may have retired or moved on. What you have quoted means nothing to me because:

A I am not interested and
B I think Jar's speculations on the attitude of the British Government (assuming it has one) are probably worthless

An unfortunate choice of last name.
 
The idea of this case coming up in PMQs is fantasy. Even if - for some inexplicable reason - it did, Cameron would only say what he's already said i.e. nothing other than offering sympathies to the Kerchers.
 
The idea of this case coming up in PMQs is fantasy. Even if - for some inexplicable reason - it did, Cameron would only say what he's already said i.e. nothing other than offering sympathies to the Kerchers.

The PMQs is the greatest thing we've ever seen, we have nothing like it in the US. The parties and president can talk past each other, saying nothing for decades, while the whole country goes down the tubes.

I do agree though, that Cameron is likely not to say anything about the integrity of the proceedings, or the bureaucratic processes unfolding in the US or elsewhere. I just think that kind of thing isn't done, it would create an international incident, without accomplishing anything. It would be stupid to comment.

He did make a statement to think about the Kerchers being told they were guilty, but didn't question the acquittals at the time. Which I thought was amazing and a "peculiar blindness" to the wrongful conviction and imprisonment.

I still think the Brit establishment and media feels self-censure in this case, for calling out the obvious short comings.
 
Well, anti-Obama tea party wackos believe Obama was secretly born in Kenya in 1961, not Hawaii as his birth certificate states. Britain was the colonizer of Kenya until 1963, which would have made him your colonial subject. That must be why Obama hates Britain. :D

This is starting to sound like "Binders full of women".

Diocletus, please tell them you were kidding about Obama hating Britain.

Or explain to my broken and disappointed heart how you have come to that conclusion?

Obama is about the most even tempered guy you could imagine, actually gifted in bridging cultural divides. (Apart from an unfortunate tendency to treat drone strikes killing terrorists like a video game, every morning as part of his work-out).
 
The court should make a statement about DNA. The operative principle of subsidiarity whereby member states are essentially responsible themselves for guaranteeing and respecting human rights, is all very well. But as numerous learned contributors here and elsewhere have demonstrated, good science knows no borders but neither does bad science either. There would appear to be a very clear requirement for guidance from the court, with a built in process for "updateability" and a direct link to Article 6 violation findings for transgressions.

I don't think this is workable. I think the issue is that scientific standards must be respected, since the bar is always moving. Anything said to address a specific short-coming on a specific procedure is already obsolete before the ink is dry. But by affirming a duty to scientific standards, logic, and reason, in other words avoiding arbitrary and unfair maneuvers, is what keeps the body of law up to date as the opinions gracefully age.
 
The PMQs is the greatest thing we've ever seen, we have nothing like it in the US. The parties and president can talk past each other, saying nothing for decades, while the whole country goes down the tubes.

I do agree though, that Cameron is likely not to say anything about the integrity of the proceedings, or the bureaucratic processes unfolding in the US or elsewhere. I just think that kind of thing isn't done, it would create an international incident, without accomplishing anything. It would be stupid to comment.

He did make a statement to think about the Kerchers being told they were guilty, but didn't question the acquittals at the time. Which I thought was amazing and a "peculiar blindness" to the wrongful conviction and imprisonment.

I still think the Brit establishment and media feels self-censure in this case, for calling out the obvious short comings.


PMQs is great in theory, but in practice it's a load of old posturing toss, originating in the UK's political primordial soup - the Oxford Union debating society.

The reason Cameron had little to say about the Kercher case was because he probably doesn't really know or care about it, like 99% of the population. It's not a wilful blindness. Getting involved in the case would involve Politics with a capital P, and since he doesn't have to, he's not gonna.
 
Do you think Migninni , Stefphoni and Edgardo Giobbi, etc..Napoleoni(whose already been charged for being a rotten cop)....

is there any chance they will think twice before framing anyone again?

I doubt Giobbi will be held accountable. I think there's a much higher probability that Ficcarra, Napoleone, and Zugarini will be held accountable for the interrogation.

In short, the lower level people will take the fall if a scape goat must be found. That's what I think the convictions of Napoleone, zugarini and ficarra were all about in Napoleone's custody battle.

Mignini? Maybe. Because its such a high profile disaster that has cause international embarrassment to Italy as a whole. But first he'll be eased into retirement, so he's no linger active. Then the net will tighten over time with successive ECHR opinions, and further review.

But the is no justice here. Lives have already been pushed off track, wrongful imprisonment suffered, reputations sullied deliberately and falsely in the press. MIgnini can't make right what he's done, only be punished for his crimes after the fact.

As for future acts of framing. I guess its like environmental contamination of DNA in Amanda's bathroom. The prosecution wants to say its evidence of her presence at the murder, which is obviously just silly. But it may be just as silly to think the framing that occurred in this case is substantially different from what happens more regularly in Italy. 'Framing' may just be how they play the game, it certainly seems evident in many other cases.

Mach would probably know best. Doesn't mean he'll tell us, not after a gallon of chianti.
 
The court should make a statement about DNA. The operative principle of subsidiarity whereby member states are essentially responsible themselves for guaranteeing and respecting human rights, is all very well. But as numerous learned contributors here and elsewhere have demonstrated, good science knows no borders but neither does bad science either. There would appear to be a very clear requirement for guidance from the court, with a built in process for "updateability" and a direct link to Article 6 violation findings for transgressions.

There's this:

Horvatic v. Croatia (17 October 2013)

Holding: Defendant must be allowed investigation to challenge the authenticity of forensics evidence.

A bank was robbed by a man wearing certain clothes. The police located the bank-robber clothes in the basement of a house. Horvatic was arrested, and his shirt, trousers, and hair and nail samples were seized from him. Upon forensic investigation, fibers from the bank-robber clothes were located on Horvatic’s shirt and trousers. Conversely, hair and fibers from Horvatic’s shirt and trousers were located on the bank-robber clothes.

Horvatic argued that the forensic findings were the consequence of contamination or tampering. The file documents as to collection, packing and handling of the samples were incomplete, and consequently, Horvatic sought the testimony of the involved police and forensics experts to establish contamination or tampering. The trial court dismissed these requests, overruled Horvatic’s contamination/tampering argument, and convicted Horvatic.

Horvatic appealed to the ECtHR, arguing that there was a violation of his right to a fair trial under Article 6. Initially, the ECtHR noted that it was sufficient that Horvatic had raised these arguments during the trial, and it was not necessary for him to have raised these arguments via a separate disciplinary or other complaint procedure.

The ECtHR explained that under Article 6 the Court will examine the way in which evidence is taken, and in particular “whether the applicant was given the opportunity to challenge the authenticity of the evidence and to oppose its use. In addition, the quality of the evidence must be taken into consideration, including whether the circumstances in which it was obtained cast doubt on its reliability or accuracy.”

The ECtHR confirmed that Horvatic’s request for examination of the police and forensics experts was proper because (i) not vexatious, and (ii) “there is no doubt that it was sufficiently reasoned, relevant to the subject matter of the accusation.” Moreover, examination of the police and forensics experts “could arguably have strengthened position of the defence or even led to . . . acquittal had it been confirmed that there had been an intentional or unintended transmission and contamination of traces.”

The ECtHR held that “by dismissing all requests by the defense and accepting all the prosecution arguments and evidence, the trial court deprived the applicant of any practical opportunity to effectively challenge the authenticity of the evidence or to oppose its use.” Accordingly, it was a violation of Horvatic’s right to a fair trial for the trial court to fail to take action to examine Horvatic’s arguments concerning the collection of the evidence.


There's another good one somewhere about access to original tape recordings. Will have to hunt around for it.
 
This is starting to sound like "Binders full of women".

Diocletus, please tell them you were kidding about Obama hating Britain.

Or explain to my broken and disappointed heart how you have come to that conclusion?

Obama is about the most even tempered guy you could imagine, actually gifted in bridging cultural divides. (Apart from an unfortunate tendency to treat drone strikes killing terrorists like a video game, every morning as part of his work-out).

Didn't our people kill his people?
 
This is starting to sound like "Binders full of women".

Diocletus, please tell them you were kidding about Obama hating Britain.

Or explain to my broken and disappointed heart how you have come to that conclusion?

Obama is about the most even tempered guy you could imagine, actually gifted in bridging cultural divides. (Apart from an unfortunate tendency to treat drone strikes killing terrorists like a video game, every morning as part of his work-out).

Well, "hates" is a poor word choice. But, he's not really a foreign affairs president, he doesn't really feel any particular affinity to Europe in general, and he doesn't recognize the "special relationship."
 
Well, anti-Obama tea party wackos believe Obama was secretly born in Kenya in 1961, not Hawaii as his birth certificate states. Britain was the colonizer of Kenya until 1963, which would have made him your colonial subject. That must be why Obama hates Britain. :D

Obama's father might very well have had strong thoughts about this.
 
Didn't our people kill his people?

You mean Kenyans, Kansas, Kailua, or Malaysians? He's called himself a mutt.

Makes the whole generational feud kind of tough to keep track of. Unless you're that discredited writer going on about 'colonial roots of Obama's rage', which sounds more like a projection of India-British relations than any insight on Obama. (Good old GOP racism flavored with a dash of curry by Chef Dinoosh).
 
Desert Fox said:
Many (if not all) of these areas have long been addressed by others but I wanted to address something else.

I know I have posted and I am pretty sure that others have posted papers from peer reviewed authors on the fallibility of human memory. You argue here about how there are reports of screams and sound of running. Before even dealing with further issues, we just cannot be sure that eye witness testimony is accurate.

If we cannot even get there on this issue where you pay no attention to well supported science, where do your arguments have any value?

The fact that "witness testimony is not accurate" is not an argument, and the statement itself makes little sense. Nothing is accurate at an absolute level, not even positron emission medical exam. There are two convergent testimonies, is a factual element and a piece of circumstantial evidence. The fact that its accuracy is limited is not an argument by which you can remove a factual element from the evidence set.

There you go again with the strawman.

The fact of it is, entering evidence of how unreliable witness testimony is, IS and argument to be made at trial.

Out of all the types of evidence which can be entered, witness testimony is the most fleeting and perhaps the least reliable. This is not an issue of absolutes (which you pull out of thin air as an issue), but an issue of prioritizing the kinds of evidence and their veracity.

For instance, even DNA evidence would have to take second place to proof that the accused was in another country at the time of the murder.
 
Well, "hates" is a poor word choice. But, he's not really a foreign affairs president, he doesn't really feel any particular affinity to Europe in general, and he doesn't recognize the "special relationship."

Well, I grant you he gave the Queen an ipod full of Beyonce. But that was with the best of intentions. He likes pick-nicking in Paris with the Sarkozies, that doesn't count?

I do think he has a special ability to communicate with less developed countries, and countries with whom we've had difficult relations like Cuba and maybe Iran, (maybe even North Korea?), in a way that other presidents really haven't been able to do.

I call that having tremendous human empathy. I wouldn't see it as snubbing europe, or 'hating white people'.

I have to say, I'm not getting this comment. Obama seems like a 'one world' guy, even John McCain's campaign called him, "The One" (not meant as a compliment).

I think he met his father once when he was ten.

Have you read any of his books? I haven't, but I would like to. I think Obama has just been repeatedly smeared in the press, grossly unfairly. I think he's just been irrationally hated by the GOP. Guy could have done so much more with a rational principled opposition, imo.
 
Well, I grant you he gave the Queen an ipod full of Beyonce. But that was with the best of intentions. He likes pick-nicking in Paris with the Sarkozies, that doesn't count?

I do think he has a special ability to communicate with less developed countries, and countries with whom we've had difficult relations like Cuba and maybe Iran, (maybe even North Korea?), in a way that other presidents really haven't been able to do.

I call that having tremendous human empathy. I wouldn't see it as snubbing europe, or 'hating white people'.

I have to say, I'm not getting this comment. Obama seems like a 'one world' guy, even John McCain's campaign called him, "The One" (not meant as a compliment).

I think he met his father once when he was ten.

Have you read any of his books? I haven't, but I would like to. I think Obama has just been repeatedly smeared in the press, grossly unfairly. I think he's just been irrationally hated by the GOP. Guy could have done so much more with a rational principled opposition, imo.

I don't read political books. But, every President gets smeared and they all have to work within the political situation to which they are elected. That's just the way it is.
 
I don't read political books. But, every President gets smeared and they all have to work within the political situation to which they are elected. That's just the way it is.

You don't think Obamas presidency has faced an especially intransigent opposition? I can remember back to Reagan and even carter, but I've never seen anything remotely like this. Seems like there's pre and post newt Gingric. I don't think the parties behave identically when roles are reversed.

You ever read the "borrow it's report"? One headline was that the GOP had agreed to compromise, and would allow Obama to create one part-time job.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone their political views. But if you don't believe in climate change, want creationism taught in science classes, and oppose federal studies into gun related injuries, isn't there really only one place to go?
 
There's this:

Horvatic v. Croatia (17 October 2013)

Holding: Defendant must be allowed investigation to challenge the authenticity of forensics evidence.

A bank was robbed by a man wearing certain clothes. The police located the bank-robber clothes in the basement of a house. Horvatic was arrested, and his shirt, trousers, and hair and nail samples were seized from him. Upon forensic investigation, fibers from the bank-robber clothes were located on Horvatic’s shirt and trousers. Conversely, hair and fibers from Horvatic’s shirt and trousers were located on the bank-robber clothes.

Horvatic argued that the forensic findings were the consequence of contamination or tampering. The file documents as to collection, packing and handling of the samples were incomplete, and consequently, Horvatic sought the testimony of the involved police and forensics experts to establish contamination or tampering. The trial court dismissed these requests, overruled Horvatic’s contamination/tampering argument, and convicted Horvatic.

Horvatic appealed to the ECtHR, arguing that there was a violation of his right to a fair trial under Article 6. Initially, the ECtHR noted that it was sufficient that Horvatic had raised these arguments during the trial, and it was not necessary for him to have raised these arguments via a separate disciplinary or other complaint procedure.

The ECtHR explained that under Article 6 the Court will examine the way in which evidence is taken, and in particular “whether the applicant was given the opportunity to challenge the authenticity of the evidence and to oppose its use. In addition, the quality of the evidence must be taken into consideration, including whether the circumstances in which it was obtained cast doubt on its reliability or accuracy.”

The ECtHR confirmed that Horvatic’s request for examination of the police and forensics experts was proper because (i) not vexatious, and (ii) “there is no doubt that it was sufficiently reasoned, relevant to the subject matter of the accusation.” Moreover, examination of the police and forensics experts “could arguably have strengthened position of the defence or even led to . . . acquittal had it been confirmed that there had been an intentional or unintended transmission and contamination of traces.”

The ECtHR held that “by dismissing all requests by the defense and accepting all the prosecution arguments and evidence, the trial court deprived the applicant of any practical opportunity to effectively challenge the authenticity of the evidence or to oppose its use.” Accordingly, it was a violation of Horvatic’s right to a fair trial for the trial court to fail to take action to examine Horvatic’s arguments concerning the collection of the evidence.


There's another good one somewhere about access to original tape recordings. Will have to hunt around for it.

Diocletus,

Thanks for finding this one. I believe I must have read it, or a similar one before, but didn't properly capture it in my database of little scraps of paper and the backs of envelopes.

Those familiar with and accepting of common law principles will see the relevance of the Horvatic case to the Knox-Sollecito case, although the alleged evidence in the former consists of fibers while in the latter it consists of DNA.

Here are some relevant excerpts from the ECHR judgment (36044/09, 17 Oct. 2013 publication date):

84. The trial court dismissed the applicant’s request, concluding that the actions taken during the pre-trial stage of the proceedings were sufficiently documented, although in fact it had no relevant record on the procedure in accordance with which the samples had been taken and packed. By dismissing all requests by the defence and accepting all the prosecution arguments and evidence, the trial court deprived the applicant of any practical opportunity to effectively challenge the authenticity of the evidence or to oppose its use.

85. As to the extent to which the domestic courts relied on such evidence when convicting the applicant, the Court notes that the conclusions of the trial court indicate that there was no other concrete and direct evidence proving that the applicant was the bank robber, and that the witness statements concerning the identity and description of the bank robber were inconclusive (see paragraphs 29 and 32 above). Therefore, the only evidence actually linking the applicant with the bank robbery were the fibres from his clothes and the strands of his hair found on the clothes worn by the bank robber (compare Erkapić v. Croatia, no. 51198/08, §§ 85-87, 25 April 2013).

86. The foregoing considerations are sufficient to enable the Court to conclude that the lack of any action by the trial court to examine the applicant’s objections as to the manner in which the forensic evidence was obtained and packed during the investigation, in the absence of a detailed report in that regard, created such a procedural disadvantage to the applicant’s detriment that the proceedings as a whole fell short of the requirements of a fair trial.

87. There has therefore been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.
 
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The fact that "witness testimony is not accurate" is not an argument, and the statement itself makes little sense. Nothing is accurate at an absolute level, not even positron emission medical exam. There are two convergent testimonies, is a factual element and a piece of circumstantial evidence. The fact that its accuracy is limited is not an argument by which you can remove a factual element from the evidence set.

I would argue that the eye witness testimony is almost worthless. Even if you think from a legal point of view it has value, on a skeptic discussion board you should understand that eye witness testimony is virtually useless.

The problem here is that we had the media speaking about the case for weeks to months before any of these witnesses came forward. Plenty of time for false memories to have been formed. I can argue the minutia about it but the simple fact is that it is not reliable evidence of anything.
 
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