Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Wow, thank you for those two posts! I single out this particular passage because I find it so (potentially) interesting. Are you saying that the ECHR has ruled that failure to provide the original electronic documents constitutes a violation of Article 6?

Incidentally, this is (mostly) what I was referring to when I asked a while back if you thought it likely the ECHR might use this case to make a 'statement' on LT/LCN DNA. If I am reading this correctly it sounds like they may have already....

The court should make a statement about DNA. The operative principle of subsidiarity whereby member states are essentially responsible themselves for guaranteeing and respecting human rights, is all very well. But as numerous learned contributors here and elsewhere have demonstrated, good science knows no borders but neither does bad science either. There would appear to be a very clear requirement for guidance from the court, with a built in process for "updateability" and a direct link to Article 6 violation findings for transgressions.
 
Can someone (e.g. Mach) explain to me the right to silence of Guede when he was called as a witness in the appeal. Guide had already been convicted of murder. As far as we know there are no outstanding charges against him. Is the issue that if Guede gave witness evidence against Knox and she was found innocent he would be subject to charges of callunia? This would be a significant inhibition to witnesses, I would have thought there should be some immunity to callunia for evidence in court.

No, there isn't, there's the opposite factor at work. Before Alessi and the three (or four?) with him testified before Hellmann, the prosecution threatened them with calunnia charges. One of them, the Romanian, chose not to testify as a result. All of this is very weird being as all they were testifying to was what they claimed Rudy Guede told them, how could it be determined they were lying about that?

Aviello, the Neapolitan mobster, has racked up several of these charges, I think it was something like six. Italian courts allow for basically anyone to testify and I suspect some of them just like to get out of prison for a few hours and enjoy the notoriety of being 'involved' in a case getting media attention.
 
I would say that although all of this may seem going too far, let us not forget the objective element of Sollecito cutting the clasp exists, and so evidently it is a farfetchedness that however is*fed by the fact that then the events take this pace.


What we have here is a paid liar. The only question is does he make up this crap on his own or is he being fed by Mignini.
 
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True I don't spend all my time doing that (and i'm afraid it would be wasted, given the interlocutors).
But some pages ago I just reminded a few of the contradictions. For example: the inconsistencies when you get to Guede stepping on the pillowcase and the alleged semen stain, the absence of drips of bloody water out of the shower and along the corridoor, the lack of shoe tracks of the alleged walk back of Guede, the bruises on genital area incompatible with post delictum sexual violence, the lack of bloody handprints on Meredith's body, the inconsistency when you try to explain the timing of the stepping on blood with his shoe (before or after washing his trousers in the bathroom?), etc.

Not to speak about the impossibility to fit ("equally well") a one assailant scenario with the autopsy report and the blood splatter analysis. Or the contradiction with Capezzali and Monacchia's testimony of a scream and (Capezzali) steps on the gravel path immediately after.

The obvious existence of two sets of prints, showintg two sets of opposites (two modus operandi): assailants who are wearing shoes, are "dirty" and don't clean the scene, have bloody hands, leave traces in full blood, don't care about leaving tracks, leaves prints that are in a complete trail, used the big bathroom, walked directly away from the room to the exit, and leave tracks belonging to a single individual; and traces of people who are "clean", are barefoot, leave traces in diluted blood (or diluted luminol positive substance), wash themselves in the bathroom, do not walk away towards the exit but remain inside within an area of the house, used the small bathroom, leave tracks that are isolated and not in a trail, they didn't walk but shuffled using a rag or a towel, and apparently took care about cleaning the corridoor floor (attept to wash bathmat, washed away Guede's print), and they left traces from two different individuals.

The above sets of traces are a "two logical sets", there is an orderly series of dychotomies, a polarization that defines two different sets of findings: two different "kinds" of activities, two kinds of perpetrators (two modus operandi).

These are examples, about what "evidence" means to me in this case.

All those are concrete arguments.

The bathmat print and the luminol prints are other arguments themselves.

The illogical point of entry - a scenario where the alleged burglar doesn't care about taking the easiest way in - does not work "equally well" than a common scenario of burglary, thus not equally well as a staging.

And so on.

The elements are so many.
And their probative power is massive.

Many (if not all) of these areas have long been addressed by others but I wanted to address something else.

I know I have posted and I am pretty sure that others have posted papers from peer reviewed authors on the fallibility of human memory. You argue here about how there are reports of screams and sound of running. Before even dealing with further issues, we just cannot be sure that eye witness testimony is accurate.

If we cannot even get there on this issue where you pay no attention to well supported science, where do your arguments have any value?
 
Many (if not all) of these areas have long been addressed by others but I wanted to address something else.

I know I have posted and I am pretty sure that others have posted papers from peer reviewed authors on the fallibility of human memory. You argue here about how there are reports of screams and sound of running. Before even dealing with further issues, we just cannot be sure that eye witness testimony is accurate.

If we cannot even get there on this issue where you pay no attention to well supported science, where do your arguments have any value?


Isn't there some NBC News Anchor named Brian Williams who is currently being hounded for having a false memory too?

The guy supposedly told many that he was on a helicopter that was shot down in Iraq, yet he was in a different 1. Went into detailed descriptions and all that. Weird stuff, that human memory...

http://time.com/3696389/brian-williams-iraq-helicopter/

Williams later responded to those service members who had highlighted on his mistake in a Facebook post. “You are absolutely right and I was wrong,” he wrote. “In fact, I spent much of the weekend thinking I’d gone crazy. I feel terrible about making this mistake.”
 
What we have here is a paid liar. The only question is does he make up this crap on his own or is he being fed by Mignini.
I would be surprised if Mignini is still enjoying the process. Mignini knows they are innocent, and is amazed but not gratified at the gullibilty of the fools and knaves, and the efficacy of his train wreck.
I am sure he is doing the best he can to live with cognitive dissonance, like the Kerchers, as Chris Halkides recently pointed out.
 
Isn't there some NBC News Anchor named Brian Williams who is currently being hounded for having a false memory too?

The guy supposedly told many that he was on a helicopter that was shot down in Iraq, yet he was in a different 1. Went into detailed descriptions and all that. Weird stuff, that human memory...

http://time.com/3696389/brian-williams-iraq-helicopter/

Here is an older but similar one

To be fair, Dr. Loftus also pointed out that Hillary Clinton was guilty of a similar memory malfunction when, during the 2008 presidential campaign, she described a visit to Bosnia during the civil war when she faced enemy snipers. Based on the recollections of the others who went with her to Bosnia (including her daughter, Chelsea), none of her vivid recollections of ducking gunfire actually happened. Confronted with this evidence, Senator Clinton denied lying about the incident. “I made a mistake. I had a different memory. That proves I’m human which for some people is a revelation.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories

Edit: Law course in the US and elsewhere in the world teach the fallibility of memory. Yet, one of Machiavelli's major claims in based on memories which there are many problems with the witnesses even being able to here what they thought they heard. The other claims can be argued against as well but when your beginning is already a bad premise, your claims are pretty much groundless.
 
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Jar from PMF just posted this:

The British government has been silent on the matter of extradition to date but why need they say anything at this stage? It knows that extradition is not a prospect without a final conviction.

It will also wait whilst extradition proceedings trundle through the US Courts.

The British government obviously has an interest because the murder victim was a British citizen and I have no doubt it will regard the final conviction (whether right or wrong - a matter on which it is not really appropriate for it to express a view) as being the result of meticulous and fair proceedings by the judiciary of an ally and fellow member state of the EU.

I would expect discreet soundings to be made (if they have not already) should Knox support gain traction with the american media whilst the extradition process is ongoing and only then, if there is any doubt, would a firm point of view be expressed but then again this will be done quietly.

That should be an appropriate point in time for the British Prime Minister to be put on the spot at Prime Minister's Question Time in Parliament. Failing that he is likely to keep his head down and just await whatever is decided.

Just asking the question - seeking clarification of the British government's point of view - and with the expected answer being along the above lines - might help chill some of the nonsense that some (thanks dgfred!) of the american media might be spouting.

There will of course surely be British media interest as well and hence a number of MPs willing to put the question.

In the event that there is inexplicably a lack of interest among them I will certainly collar my local MP, who also happens to be the Kercher's local MP, to harangue and shame him into taking action. It won't come to that unfortunately but that's something I would really, really like to do.


I always assumed he was American.


Maybe Anglolawyer or LondonJohn or other English people can parse this.

ETA

"meticulous and fair proceedings"

Oh my.
We are making no progress, Jar is a lawyer I believe.
 
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I would be surprised if Mignini is still enjoying the process. Mignini knows they are innocent, and is amazed but not gratified at the gullibilty of the fools and knaves, and the efficacy of his train wreck.
It's difficult to work out the mindset of the perpetrators and apologists for this travesty (including certain posters in this forum), long after their delusions have fallen apart by any real measure. In Mignini's case, we can only guess that he sees his manufactured "judicial truth" as of equivalent validity to objective reality. The others are either habitual pitchfork-carriers who instinctively take the side of the accusers, or people who show a peculiar loyalty to the Italian judicial process.
I am sure he is doing the best he can to live with cognitive dissonance, like the Kerchers, as Chris Halkides recently pointed out.
When you have judicial truth on your side, you have immunity to cognitive dissonance.
 
Jar from PMF just posted this:

The British government has been silent on the matter of extradition to date but why need they say anything at this stage? It knows that extradition is not a prospect without a final conviction.

It will also wait whilst extradition proceedings trundle through the US Courts.

The British government obviously has an interest because the murder victim was a British citizen and I have no doubt it will regard the final conviction (whether right or wrong - a matter on which it is not really appropriate for it to express a view) as being the result of meticulous and fair proceedings by the judiciary of an ally and fellow member state of the EU.

I would expect discreet soundings to be made (if they have not already) should Knox support gain traction with the american media whilst the extradition process is ongoing and only then, if there is any doubt, would a firm point of view be expressed but then again this will be done quietly.

That should be an appropriate point in time for the British Prime Minister to be put on the spot at Prime Minister's Question Time in Parliament. Failing that he is likely to keep his head down and just await whatever is decided.

Just asking the question - seeking clarification of the British government's point of view - and with the expected answer being along the above lines - might help chill some of the nonsense that some (thanks dgfred!) of the american media might be spouting.

There will of course surely be British media interest as well and hence a number of MPs willing to put the question.

In the event that there is inexplicably a lack of interest among them I will certainly collar my local MP, who also happens to be the Kercher's local MP, to harangue and shame him into taking action. It won't come to that unfortunately but that's something I would really, really like to do.


I always assumed he was American.


Maybe Anglolawyer or LondonJohn or other English people can parse this.

ETA

"meticulous and fair proceedings"

Oh my.
We are making no progress, Jar is a lawyer I believe.

These people at PMF apparently believe that an extradition process will be engaged. I don't think it will.

However, hypothetically if it were, the Kercher family's MP may well be asked to make representations to the government to intervene to put pressure on the American government. I don't see a question being tabled in Parliament however. He might write the PM a letter.

Nevertheless, this would be regarded as a matter between the Italian and US governments and for them to work out. The British government, whilst offering every sympathy to the Kercher family for the loss of their daughter cannot get involved in the diplomatic relationship between two allies or take sides in the event of a dispute.

See this from immediately after the Helmann verdict:

"Conservative Richard Ottaway, the Kercher family's MP, expressed his hope that the Kerchers' anguish would not be overlooked.

"I would like to pay tribute to the quiet dignity of the Kercher family," he said.

"They thought they had closure on this ghastly incident and they don't and it has been a very stressful time for them.

"I hope that, in all the furore over this, they are not forgotten."

His sentiments were echoed by Prime Minister David Cameron, who said: "I feel for Meredith Kercher's family.

"They had previously had an explanation about what had happened to their daughter and they don't have that any more. All of us should be thinking of them.""

http://news.sky.com/story/888939/kercher-family-were-back-to-square-one

It's your typical warm and fuzzy politician speak and safe. Very safe.
 
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Jar from PMF just posted this:

The British government has been silent on the matter of extradition to date but why need they say anything at this stage? It knows that extradition is not a prospect without a final conviction.

It will also wait whilst extradition proceedings trundle through the US Courts.

The British government obviously has an interest because the murder victim was a British citizen and I have no doubt it will regard the final conviction (whether right or wrong - a matter on which it is not really appropriate for it to express a view) as being the result of meticulous and fair proceedings by the judiciary of an ally and fellow member state of the EU.

I would expect discreet soundings to be made (if they have not already) should Knox support gain traction with the american media whilst the extradition process is ongoing and only then, if there is any doubt, would a firm point of view be expressed but then again this will be done quietly.

That should be an appropriate point in time for the British Prime Minister to be put on the spot at Prime Minister's Question Time in Parliament. Failing that he is likely to keep his head down and just await whatever is decided.

Just asking the question - seeking clarification of the British government's point of view - and with the expected answer being along the above lines - might help chill some of the nonsense that some (thanks dgfred!) of the american media might be spouting.

There will of course surely be British media interest as well and hence a number of MPs willing to put the question.

In the event that there is inexplicably a lack of interest among them I will certainly collar my local MP, who also happens to be the Kercher's local MP, to harangue and shame him into taking action. It won't come to that unfortunately but that's something I would really, really like to do.


I always assumed he was American.


Maybe Anglolawyer or LondonJohn or other English people can parse this.

ETA

"meticulous and fair proceedings"

Oh my.
We are making no progress, Jar is a lawyer I believe.

I'm not British, but here are my thoughts:

1. Jar is not smart, sorry, but he's just not

2. Obama hates Britain (although he probably won't be Pres by the time this comes to a head)

3. If extradition is delayed or denied, it's going to be for some political/legal reason internal to the US, and neither itsly not the UK are going to change that.

4. Italy should have thought of this before it established a course of dealing under this treaty, by which national courts can override the terms of the treaty based on their identification of important legal policy.
 
I'm not British, but here are my thoughts:

1. Jar is not smart, sorry, but he's just not

2. Obama hates Britain (although he probably won't be Pres by the time this comes to a head)

3. If extradition is delayed or denied, it's going to be for some political/legal reason internal to the US, and neither itsly not the UK are going to change that.

4. Italy should have thought of this before it established a course of dealing under this treaty, by which national courts can override the terms of the treaty based on their identification of important legal policy.

Obama hates us? What did we do?
 
I'm not British, but here are my thoughts:

1. Jar is not smart, sorry, but he's just not

2. Obama hates Britain (although he probably won't be Pres by the time this comes to a head)

3. If extradition is delayed or denied, it's going to be for some political/legal reason internal to the US, and neither itsly not the UK are going to change that.

4. Italy should have thought of this before it established a course of dealing under this treaty, by which national courts can override the terms of the treaty based on their identification of important legal policy.
Wut? I love America and Britain.
 
Well...almost. Not quite. In the Dorigo case, the Constitutional Court went further than it had before and instead of simply striking down a law, issued what is known as an "additive" decision, declaring art. 630 cpp unconstitutional for not providing a possibility of reopening criminal proceedings under art. 46 of the Convention, in order to enforce a final decision via the European court through the Committee of Ministers. Effectively, it was forced into "making" law, as the legislature had failed, despite numerous attempts, to do so itself.

The Constitutional Court cannot write laws, only cancel them. This was also on the Dorigo case. And the Dorigo sentence, by the way, was not annulled.

Remember this one, Machiavelli? When you tried to tell us that once a case is closed it is closed for ever and there is no possibility of it ever being opened again? Res iudicata, my foot!!

I stated that a final decision cannot be annulled, and I stand exactly by what I said. Obviously you would need to understand it.

The papers for extradition request to Panama were being filed, but they were never delivered only because of timings: because Panama rendered Lady to the US getting rid of him after few days.
Lady was pardoned, and this is the only reason why an extradition request was not fulfilled.

The government cannot pardon criminals - only the President can, and the President is not part of the government.
But pardon is not the same thing as defying the judiciary - pardoned criminals are acknowledged to be guilty. The President anyway will not pardon Amanda Knox.
 
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Here is an older but similar one

To be fair, Dr. Loftus also pointed out that Hillary Clinton was guilty of a similar memory malfunction when, during the 2008 presidential campaign, she described a visit to Bosnia during the civil war when she faced enemy snipers. Based on the recollections of the others who went with her to Bosnia (including her daughter, Chelsea), none of her vivid recollections of ducking gunfire actually happened. Confronted with this evidence, Senator Clinton denied lying about the incident. “I made a mistake. I had a different memory. That proves I’m human which for some people is a revelation.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories

Edit: Law course in the US and elsewhere in the world teach the fallibility of memory. Yet, one of Machiavelli's major claims in based on memories which there are many problems with the witnesses even being able to here what they thought they heard. The other claims can be argued against as well but when your beginning is already a bad premise, your claims are pretty much groundless.


Well in those two examples (Williams and Clinton) it's probably even more complicated than that. Both of them stood to gain empathy and plaudits for "remembering" themselves to have been closer to mortal danger than they actually were. And it could be therefore that they knowingly chose to lie (and/or exaggerate) for that very purpose. But it could also be that they have truly come to believe their inaccurate version of events.

But there are indeed plenty of examples where the fallibility and frailty of human memory can be clearly demonstrated, even within minutes. And what's more, there is plenty of study into the phenomenon of "scenario fulfillment"-related memory - where a subject can convince himself/herself of a false memory in order to fit another apparently true fact.

And that kind of thing has a strong resonance to both Knox's and Sollecito's interrogations on the 5th/6th November. They were both apparently told - by authority figures who said they had hard evidence to support the "facts" - that certain things were true. In Sollecito's case, it was that the police told him that they knew for certain that Knox had been present in the cottage at the time of the murder. This in effect forced Sollecito to override his actual memory of events (that Knox had been with him in his apartment all evening/night) and instead conflate the previous night's events - all in order to reconcile his memory with what the police told him was definitely true. In Knox's case, it was again that the police told her they had definitive proof that she was at the murder scene, plus the newly-obtained "admission" from Sollecito that she left his apartment that night. Those two things, coupled with the stress and fear of the situation, were sufficient to coerce Knox into her confused (and prompted) "confession/accusation".
 
Many (if not all) of these areas have long been addressed by others but I wanted to address something else.

I know I have posted and I am pretty sure that others have posted papers from peer reviewed authors on the fallibility of human memory. You argue here about how there are reports of screams and sound of running. Before even dealing with further issues, we just cannot be sure that eye witness testimony is accurate.

If we cannot even get there on this issue where you pay no attention to well supported science, where do your arguments have any value?

The fact that "witness testimony is not accurate" is not an argument, and the statement itself makes little sense. Nothing is accurate at an absolute level, not even positron emission medical exam. There are two convergent testimonies, is a factual element and a piece of circumstantial evidence. The fact that its accuracy is limited is not an argument by which you can remove a factual element from the evidence set.
 
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The Constitutional Court cannot write laws, only cancel them. This was also on the Dorigo case. And the Dorigo sentence, by the way, was not annulled.



I stated that a final decision cannot be annulled, and I stand exactly by what I said. Obviously you would need to understand it.

The papers for extradition request to Panama were being filed, but they were never delivered only because of timings: because Panama rendered Lady to the US getting rid of him after few days.
Lady was pardoned, and this is the only reason why an extradition request was not fulfilled.

The government cannot pardon criminals - only the President can, and the President is not part of the government.
But pardon is not the same thing as defying the judiciary - pardoned criminals are acknowledged to be guilty. The President anyway will not pardon Amanda Knox.

Sorry, but an adjudicated human right violation trumps all.
 
Obama hates us? What did we do?

Well, anti-Obama tea party wackos believe Obama was secretly born in Kenya in 1961, not Hawaii as his birth certificate states. Britain was the colonizer of Kenya until 1963, which would have made him your colonial subject. That must be why Obama hates Britain. :D
 
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