Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I agree, this is what Nencini "points out". Then he goes on to destroy his own argument, by accepting the extra Y-material as needing explanation, too!!!!

He doesn't. Never sates that Y-haplotypes "need" an explanation.

He only add - but only generically, and incidentally - that some, or any, of the genetic material, may have explanation, and some are given as example. Not that it needs an explanation.

He then, without a shred of proof must less a shred of evidence, goes on to speculate that the extra Y-material is probably from the boyfriend and (further) the other two from two "amica".

No. He does not attribute any Y material to any "amica". First he does not accept the finding of any Y-material as certain (except by your twisting interpretation about a porprted "depending" or "relying" on Vecchiotti), second he does not say he is going to make a list - even less a complete list - of all possible contributors, and third he places all these consideration within a sandwitch of other considerations saying that the object of the paragraph in between is anyway irrelevant, because the identities of all contributors are irrelevant except Sollecito's.
 
Machiavelli has never answered this, even when directly asked. Some of the guilters have tried to claim that Raffaele used his fingernail to open the hook (never mind that when the bra is attached the hooks face into the fabric on the eye strap and face Meredith's back so they are inaccessible to prying fingers). The pathological liar (not a real doctor Patriza Stefanoni) (...)

Patrizia Stefanoni is a real doctor, and she is not the one here who comes out clinging to pathetic lies.
 
I remind that one of the points where I have proven you wrong, is exactly the impossibility - on your part and on the part of the pro-Knox supporters - to build a reasonable sequence of Guede acting alone, without contradicting the physical evidence.

I point out that nobody was able to solve points of inconsistency of the Guede alone scenario, such as the timing of his trampling over the pillow (to be made consistent with the timing of the semen stain and the placing of the pillow undr the body). The alleged washing-his-trousers under the shower without dripping around or his not leaving a trace of blood shoeprints through his alleged turning at the front door and walking back to Meredith's room, and the absence of evidence of that; or the bruises pointing to sexual violence committed when the victim still had a good blood pressure; the absence of any trace of touching the victim's body with bloody hands; these are just other examples.

Most of the forensic people at Massei's court disagree with you.

Massei p.394 said:
The consultants and forensic scientists have asserted that from the point of view
of forensic science, it cannot be ruled out that the author of the injuries could have
been a single attacker, because the bruises and the wounds from a pointed and
cutting weapon are not in themselves incompatible with the action of a single
person. With regard to this, it is nevertheless observed that the contribution of each
discipline is specifically in the domain of the specific competence of that discipline,
and in fact the consultants and forensic experts concentrated their attention on the
aspects specifically belonging to forensic science: time of death, cause of death,
elements indicating sexual violence, the injuries present on the body of the victim, and the causes and descriptions of these. The answer given above concerning the
possibility of their being inflicted by the action of a single person or by more than
one was given in relation to these specific duties and questions, which belong
precisely to the domain of forensic science, and the meaning of this answer was thus
that there are no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which
could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person. But,
to actually answer this question, of whether the criminal action which determined
Meredith's death was the action of one person alone or several people acting
together, it is necessary to take into account, not only the contributions of forensic
science, but also other elements which have emerged and which are relevant to this
point, and to evaluate the situation in a way which takes the comprehensive picture
into account​

None of those points of inconsistency are at all compelling. Indeed, Judge Massei also says he is looking at the larger picture.... however, he uses faux-evidence. The first such piece of faux evidence his Massei's claim is Meredith's physical condition.

Yet, just as Massei recounts that the forensics actually DO lend support to a single attacker, and after offering only ONE counter to it, Massei has this curious sentence.....

In fact, putting together the elements mentioned above - including, of course, the forensic observations - it is considered that the injuries and the violence were the result of an action of several people.

He simply reverses field on the "injures and the violence" that the experts had just told him (and he seems to accept) did not rule out one attacker.

This is the weakest part of the Massei report. Once again his reasoning is that it is multiple attackers "just because".
 
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No. He does not attribute any Y material to any "amica". First he does not accept the finding of any Y-material as certain (except by your twisting interpretation about a porprted "depending" or "relying" on Vecchiotti), second he does not say he is going to make a list - even less a complete list - of all possible contributors, and third he places all these consideration within a sandwitch of other considerations saying that the object of the paragraph in between is anyway irrelevant, because the identities of all contributors are irrelevant except Sollecito's.

Wait a minute.... why is he talking about extra material at all, if not for Vecchiotti?

Look who is twisting!

ETA - your zany theory is that the extra Y-material got there because of the dirt on the floor!
 
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The mods do not read this thread except when posts are reported. Proof of this is easily seen where a recent post of mine was infarcted where I called the poster child for forensics fraud a pathological liar yet only a couple of posts later Machiavelli is telling another poster to go kill someone and that post is left unscathed.

This is also proof that I didn't report Machiavelli's post but rather gave him fair warning in the thread in time for him to correct his post and avoid moderation. It is unfortunate that we are again inflicted with juvinals calling down the wrath of the mods. Why can't they just learn the facts of this case and join the adult conversation.

What a condescending attitude. And why don't the pro-Knoxes learn the penal procedure code and a bit of jurisprudence, and the language of court documents, before joining an adult conversation?
 
What a condescending attitude. And why don't the pro-Knoxes learn the penal procedure code and a bit of jurisprudence, and the language of court documents, before joining an adult conversation?

So what do you think about Washington and Lee university using the Kercher case as one of their textbook examples of what not to do? Being compared to the Norfolk Four case and the term used is "Half Baked Conspiracy Theory"
 
Wait a minute.... why is he talking about extra material at all, if not for Vecchiotti?
(....)

Where's the logic, here?
The existence of extra alleles was known since the time of the 2008 preliminary trial discussions. It had been discussed by Sollecito's consultants (one of them even pointed to another "female contributor", implying Knox). Sollecito's defence submitted an expert's report to the Preliminary Judge on Friday Oct. 24. that dealt with this issue too, and on Oct. 27. 2008 Bongiorno herself made the argument that the bra clasp was contaminated because the DNA profile showed a mixture of different contributors.

Nencini has no need to read Vecchiotti in order to know about the multiple contributors in bra clasp DNA profile. This is was known from multiple reports, expert testimonies and defence arguments in the trial file since the preliminary hearing.
 
So what do you think about Washington and Lee university using the Kercher case as one of their textbook examples of what not to do? Being compared to the Norfolk Four case and the term used is "Half Baked Conspiracy Theory"

As I happened to see something of the news coverege by American mainstream networks, I thought about how Americanse were dreadfully ignorant about everything of the case. I am unimpressed about opinions which are developed on the basis of such reporting.
I am well aware that top experts such as Balding and Carracedo agree with Stefanoni's results, but actually I don't expect serious scientists to publicly take sides about judicial case, in "books" or "textbooks", and I don't want them to do so.
And frankly, I explained quite clearly the multiple reasons why I don't care.

Aside, if there are experts who have something to say that would effect the guilt or finnocence of defendants, they should answer questions. I would only listen when they answers to specific questions, not to what they write in textbooks.
 
Most of the forensic people at Massei's court disagree with you.

(...)

It would be more productive if you made the exercise of trying to speak for yourself, sometimes. Not always try to just manipulate sources in an attempt to play them one against the other.
 
Where's the logic, here?
The existence of extra alleles was known since the time of the 2008 preliminary trial discussions. It had been discussed by Sollecito's consultants (one of them even pointed to another "female contributor", implying Knox). Sollecito's defence submitted an expert's report to the Preliminary Judge on Friday Oct. 24. that dealt with this issue too, and on Oct. 27. 2008 Bongiorno herself made the argument that the bra clasp was contaminated because the DNA profile showed a mixture of different contributors.

Nencini has no need to read Vecchiotti in order to know about the multiple contributors in bra clasp DNA profile. This is was known from multiple reports, expert testimonies and defence arguments in the trial file since the preliminary hearing.

So then what are you arguing? You want to argue both sides of an issue.

Besides, you've already advanced this silly theory that it was the dirty bra-clasp that contaminated Stefanoni's glove!

Bizarre.
 
It would be more productive if you made the exercise of trying to speak for yourself, sometimes. Not always try to just manipulate sources in an attempt to play them one against the other.

Manipulate sources!!??

Quoting from Massei is manipulating sources?

No wonder you do not read motivations reports or see any value in them.

Of all the discounting of arguments you've made, this is the silliest.
 
Where's the logic, here?
The existence of extra alleles was known since the time of the 2008 preliminary trial discussions. It had been discussed by Sollecito's consultants (one of them even pointed to another "female contributor", implying Knox). Sollecito's defence submitted an expert's report to the Preliminary Judge on Friday Oct. 24. that dealt with this issue too, and on Oct. 27. 2008 Bongiorno herself made the argument that the bra clasp was contaminated because the DNA profile showed a mixture of different contributors.

Nencini has no need to read Vecchiotti in order to know about the multiple contributors in bra clasp DNA profile. This is was known from multiple reports, expert testimonies and defence arguments in the trial file since the preliminary hearing.

So, ok, let's then take this one at a time. What is Nencini's rationale, using evidence, that the first unknown contributor is Meredith's boyfriend.

Please not I am not talking about his speculation, I'm talking about evidence.
 
As I happened to see something of the news coverege by American mainstream networks, I thought about how Americanse were dreadfully ignorant about everything of the case. I am unimpressed about opinions which are developed on the basis of such reporting.
I am well aware that top experts such as Balding and Carracedo agree with Stefanoni's results, but actually I don't expect serious scientists to publicly take sides about judicial case, in "books" or "textbooks", and I don't want them to do so.
And frankly, I explained quite clearly the multiple reasons why I don't care.

Aside, if there are experts who have something to say that would effect the guilt or finnocence of defendants, they should answer questions. I would only listen when they answers to specific questions, not to what they write in textbooks.

According to these lawyers, it is only one of three cases where they went on with prosecuting the defendants while they have the real perpetrator in custody. Maybe you can find a fourth.

As such, because it is not a normal case, it is going to keep attracting attention. Almost certainly the ECHR will look at the case and the US will likely will not accept any extradition request without careful review.

These guys don't win every case but when they speak, people do listen. You also have on the physical evidence, at least 20 US DNA experts who will testify that the DNA case is absolute garbage.
 
I remind that one of the points where I have proven you wrong, is exactly the impossibility - on your part and on the part of the pro-Knox supporters - to build a reasonable sequence of Guede acting alone, without contradicting the physical evidence.

I point out that nobody was able to solve points of inconsistency of the Guede alone scenario, such as the timing of his trampling over the pillow (to be made consistent with the timing of the semen stain and the placing of the pillow undr the body). The alleged washing-his-trousers under the shower without dripping around or his not leaving a trace of blood shoeprints through his alleged turning at the front door and walking back to Meredith's room, and the absence of evidence of that; or the bruises pointing to sexual violence committed when the victim still had a good blood pressure; the absence of any trace of touching the victim's body with bloody hands; these are just other examples.


You obviously haven't read this entire thread. I have stated on a number of occasions that my belief is that the stain had been deposited on the pillow prior to Meridith being placed on the pillow. I even mentioned that the timing could be up to however long it takes semen to dry to where it is no longer trackable. But I stated that it would be up to Rudy to come out with a statement explaining why his semen was on the pillow under the dead girl before the semen is definately linked to him otherwise nobody is going to accept his answer as anything other a futile attempt to squirm out of the shame of being known as a necrophilliac. In other words, there is a solution but you haven't been able to come up with it. I suggest you write to Rudy if you want this explained.

When i discussed the shower I surmised that Rudy would use a towel to pat dry his trowsers. I have also pointed out the drips that are visible and not otherwise explained.

You are being disingenuous to imply that I have not covered the failure of ILE to detect and mark the continuation of the bloody shoeprints. We had a long discussion on this very point. (perhaps that was a different Machiavelli)

Where is your claim for the timing of sexual violence coming from? In my summary I didn't even mention it.

But I did mention cleaning up in the bathroom a couple of times.
 
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Machiavelli has never answered this, even when directly asked. Some of the guilters have tried to claim that Raffaele used his fingernail to open the hook (never mind that when the bra is attached the hooks face into the fabric on the eye strap and face Meredith's back so they are inaccessible to prying fingers). The pathological liar (not a real doctor Patriza Stefanoni) tells the court that this must have happened when Raffaele cut the clasp off with a knife.

If you hear the video of the collection of the bra, you would see Stefanoni's picking up the bra and discussing about it with another forensic, and, at a certain point you can hear her clearly repeating "E' stato strappato" (this has been torn). This is stated more than once IIRC.
Stefanoni said torn, not cut, this is recorded on video.

But the forensics tell us that the clasp was torn from the bra when Rudy Guede pulled out and down on the back band causing the straps and clasp to peel off at the stitching and distorting the top hook of the clasp.

Scintific evidence only says it was torn apart. Scientific evidence does not say when and by whom.

The forensics tell us that it was Rudy Guede that ripped the bra because he left his DNA on the band where he grabbed it.

His DNA is on a band at a certain location, but science does not tell you that was the part was from where it was pulled and ripped, or whether that was the only part where it was grabbed or pulled. It is possible that it was ripped by pulling it from there by Rudy Guede. It's not proven. But anyway, this is not the part of the crime problematic to explain; the problematic parts are others, and these speculation offer not explanatory dynamic for them.

The clasp whould be thrown to the floor by the recoil of the band when it broke and was subsequently covered by the pillow with Rudy Guede's palm print in Meredith"s blood.

Bear in mind that she kept wearing her bra whil she had been already stabbed to death and while she was already lying on her back.
The above described ballistic analysis is a conjecture with no experimental backing to say the least (but that doesn't really matter). It's reasonable to infer that the bra came off only once the bra was removed anyway. However the question here is: when did Guede place the pillow under Meredith's body? When he already had his hands dirty with blood, I suppose?
Then when did he step on it? Before or subsequently to that?

During the murder it was all Rudy Guede.

Absolutely unproven, and contrary to the physical evidence.
 
Patrizia Stefanoni is a real doctor, and she is not the one here who comes out clinging to pathetic lies.


There is a Patriza Stefanoni that is a real doctor with a Ph.D and everything. That one has a web page with all the particulars including when and where the degrees were earned, lists of publications, the whole works. But the good Doctor Stefanoni does not work for the forensics lab in Rome. Perhaps you got confused. When you can link to verifiable information for the achievements of your fake doctor we'll discuss it.
 
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I remind that one of the points where I have proven you wrong, is exactly the impossibility - on your part and on the part of the pro-Knox supporters - to build a reasonable sequence of Guede acting alone, without contradicting the physical evidence.

I point out that nobody was able to solve points of inconsistency of the Guede alone scenario, such as the timing of his trampling over the pillow (to be made consistent with the timing of the semen stain and the placing of the pillow undr the body). The alleged washing-his-trousers under the shower without dripping around or his not leaving a trace of blood shoeprints through his alleged turning at the front door and walking back to Meredith's room, and the absence of evidence of that; or the bruises pointing to sexual violence committed when the victim still had a good blood pressure; the absence of any trace of touching the victim's body with bloody hands; these are just other examples.
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There is nothing in the evidence contradicting Rudy grabbing Meredith from behind using one arm to pin her arms down, and killing her from behind with one knife using the other arm,

d

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ETA: She might have been in the act of taking off her coat (or sweatshirt) when he surprised her, pinning her arms (or at least one) down naturally. Try taking off a coat or sweatshirt naturally, and you'll see what I mean.

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If you hear the video of the collection of the bra, you would see Stefanoni's picking up the bra and discussing about it with another forensic, and, at a certain point you can hear her clearly repeating "E' stato strappato" (this has been torn). This is stated more than once IIRC.
Stefanoni said torn, not cut, this is recorded on video.


Excellent.
 
There are no amica's haplotypes in Nencini's report.

Machiavelli, you of course have read Nencini's motivation report in the Italian. Does it contain the word "amica" (feminine)? If so, do you see anything else in that sentence or paragraph that suggests it may be a typo? That he meant "amico"?
 
You obviously haven't read this entire thread. I have stated on a number of occasions that my belief is that the stain had been deposited on the pillow prior to Meridith being placed on the pillow. I even mentioned that the timing could be up to however long it takes semen to dry to where it is no longer trackable. But I stated that it would be up to Rudy to come out with a statement explaining why his semen was on the pillow under the dead girl before the semen is definately linked to him otherwise nobody is going to accept his answer as anything other a futile attempt to squirm out of the shame of being known as a necrophilliac. In other words, there is a solution but you haven't been able to come up with it. I suggest you write to Rudy if you want this explained.

Just a moment. You are not giving any solution.
You are basically admitting you have none.

How you defend your lack of solution? By surrounding it with a circle of unproven postulates. You inject one more unproven postulate, following others, that is that Guede would be a necrophiliac. It's unproven, but you use it as an argument to back another unproven assumption. Then you add some further consideration that is allowing the murderer may have remained in the room for possibly a fairly long time (this is contrary to the evidence of Nara Capezzali's testimony, which is backed by Monacchia's and which you are totally unable to disprove).

And this going agaisnt the evidence, for what? What is the purpose of those unproven postulates contradicting the evidence findings? What explanation do you get through them?
None.
By those considerations you are just diverting from the point, you are trying to go around it. If the stain was deposited on the pillow before this was placed under her body, what happens to the interpretation about the pillow, the theory that it was allegedly placed under her hips so Guede could help himself, better masturbate or commit a violence on her body?
Now, in the updated version he already had an orgasm? He already finished, before placing the pillow under her body? Is that a realistic dynamic, even from physiological and motivational POV (he ejaculates elsewhere - not on the body nor close to the genital area but on a pillow - and then places the pillow close to the genital area, only subsequently to that, after he has already finished)? And why?
If so, then for what purpose was the pillow placed there? And what happens with the defensive argument that hinged on pointing out how the semen stain was near the genital area? The whole logical construct build around this detail falls into disarray.

That would produce an inconsistence at the root of the whole logical argumentation, but that's not the only problem. The other problem would be to make your scenario become consistent with an absence of Rudy Guede's shoeprints near Meredith's body, except for those belonging to the trail of prints walking out from the room.

You place 5 bloody shoeprints on the pillow. You place them there at a time that you consider prior to placing the pillow under the body. But the pillow was indeed placed under the body (which was clean etc.) at a certain subsequent point. Hence, you need to have Guede doing some other activity during this time in between, between the two moments of stepping on the pillow first, and then lift her body, pick the pillow from where it was and place the pillow under her body next. He needs to walk somewhere, he needs to make some step, to move to perform this operation.

We note that, in this scenario, he must have his shoes already dirty with blood (since he left the prints on the pillow).

So where is the evidence of other steps? Where are his other shoeprints? he didn't take any other step in the room, except the five shoeprints on the pillow.
There is not even a shoeprint of him walking towards the bathroo, where you believe he washed himself.

When i discussed the shower I surmised that Rudy would use a towel to pat dry his trowsers. I have also pointed out the drips that are visible and not otherwise explained.

But there are no drips. I mean, especially there are no drips that follow his steps.
There are actually not even his steps: because he was barefoot, and the only bloody footprints that you allow are on the bathmat. Why nowhere else?
Then, given that he put on his shoes again, one should wonder why the shoes are still dirty with blood.

Did he get his shoes dirty with blood twice? The first time, before placing the pillow under Meredith's body, and the second time after he entered the room again after he washed himself up in the bathroom?

And, as for the drips, how did he manage to prevent his trousers from dripping bloody water, which would have been detected by luminol, as he walked out? Bear in minde that in your scenario he wouldn't be able to prevent even his bare foot from dripping on the bathmat. Yet you postulate that his trousers were not dripping around. Despite he just washed them udner the shower.

You are being disingenuous to imply that I have not covered the failure of ILE to detect and mark the continuation of the bloody shoeprints. We had a long discussion on this very point. (perhaps that was a different Machiavelli)

The trail of bloody shoeprints is very, very clear. By the way, it is also clear that you even "forgot" how one of the shoeprint was visible only by half, the other half - close to Merediht's door - was only visible through luminol, this factually showing that a washing up of the floor did take place.

Where is your claim for the timing of sexual violence coming from? In my summary I didn't even mention it.

How can you assume that a sexual violence was committed on a dying person, when there is evidence of superficial bruising, indicating a good blood pressure?
 
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