Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[CapelDodger]

You want that "he"'s there, but at least you recognize that "he" isn't alone in there.

I am all too aware of that. There are plenty of Ukrainians (and Byelorussians) in there as well. A culture that's been around for three or four generations is not easily shaken off, and the Soviet culture itself was built on pre-existing foundations - they didn't invent Potemkin villages, after all.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Well, allow me to politely suggest that your frame of reference might be out of date and post a peripherally related picture of Dimitry Medvedev, dated 1986.

 

[CapelDodger]

Well, allow me to politely suggest that your frame of reference might be out of date ...

My frame of reference is back in vogue; it's the 90's delusion of a smooth transition from the USSR and Warsaw Pact to the wonderful world of liberal capitalism that's thoroughly dated.

I said it at the time : this looks too easy to be true. And, as usual, I was right. Once the troughs were empty and the pigs looked around for more, trouble started.

 

[CapelDodger]

And I have to repear that those endlessly ranting about the far right in the Ukraine are silent about the Far Right in Russia, which is much more powerful and influential then the Far Right in the Ukraine.

I don't think the far-right has very much influence in Russia; that's been stamped on up to now. Nationalism has long been a dirty word in Russia, Tsarist and Soviet, for obvious reasons. Empires don't favour nationalism. Putin has, I suspect, been tempted into trying to ride that tiger rather than cage it, so things might change.

The far-right in Ukraine is deeper-rooted, again for obvious reasons. It has an even deeper-rooted far-right in Poland to model itself on, and its strength is mainly in the West of the country, Volhynia and Podolia as was. Those parts where the Nazis were initially welcomed.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Here’s The Ukrainian Delegation That Gave Misleading Photos To Senator’s Office

WASHINGTON — A delegation consisting of Ukrainian members of parliament, a paramilitary leader, and one Georgetown professor gave a senator’s office photos purportedly of the Russian military invading Ukraine that were later debunked.

Several photos allegedly showing the Russian military in eastern Ukraine that ran on the Washington Free Beacon on Tuesday were quickly shown to actually be photos from other conflicts, some from years earlier. A spokesperson for Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe told the Free Beacon that the office had procured the photos from a “Ukrainian delegation” in December. [...]

But the duped Senator of course doesn't pause to think about why there is need to spread "misleading" photos, because he still knows to be true what everybody knows to be true in the echo chamber:

“The Ukrainian parliament members who gave us these photos in print form as if it came directly from a camera really did themselves a disservice,” Inhofe said in a statement. “We felt confident to release these photos because the images match the reporting of what is going on in the region. I was furious to learn one of the photos provided now appears to be falsified from an AP photo taken in 2008. This doesn’t change the fact that there is plenty of evidence Russia has made advances into the country with T-72 tanks and that pro-Russian separatists have been killing Ukrainians in cold blood.”

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

And I have to repear that those endlessly ranting about the far right in the Ukraine are silent about the Far Right in Russia, which is much more powerful and influential then the Far Right in the Ukraine.

Or the fact that for a number of years now, Russia have been bankrolling the far-right across Europe in an attempt to destabilise the democratic process. I got really sick of the Putinbots when we were having a discussion on the whole Ukraine situation elsewhere.

Taking bets as to how long until this deal breaks down.
I think you have nailed Putin's tactics . IMHO in a year or so look to PUtin to move to the next state of his creation of "Greater Russia".

I am troubled by Germany and France's continued detemination to do business with Putin. In the long run I don't think you can do business with his type.

When I saw these talks revolving, I thought to myself, "this could be Merkel's Neville Chamberlain moment." Just like with Munchen in 1938 the west had all the cards in their hands, didn't realise it and let the paper tiger off the hook, only to figure out their loss when the dictator predicably took their show of weakness as an endorsement of his policies and continued with the landgrabs. Expect Putin to try and eat another chunk of Ukraine before the year is out.

 

[Childlike Empress]

As expected, Yarosh has called it off, they will "continue the war" (and before anybody whines about the source, follow the link to his facebook page and let it be translated for you). Also a former Azov Batallion leader who now sits (like Yarosh) in the parliament. If any pre$$titutes report on this, I'm sure it'll be somehow Putin's fault.

 

[Border Reiver]

They appear to be a real minority in Parliament. Rather than listen to listen to rhetoric alone, how about we actually see what happens?

 

[CapelDodger]

Or the fact that for a number of years now, Russia have been bankrolling the far-right across Europe in an attempt to destabilise the democratic process.

Do you have a source for that? I always keep half an eye on the far right and I hadn't come across it. I don't see why Putin and his ilk would want to undermine democracy; in their worldview democracy is a weakness, not a strength.

I got really sick of the Putinbots when we were having a discussion on the whole Ukraine situation elsewhere.

Knee-jerk black-hat/white-hat partisanship is indeed boring.

When I saw these talks revolving, I thought to myself, "this could be Merkel's Neville Chamberlain moment." Just like with Munchen in 1938 the west had all the cards in their hands, didn't realise it and let the paper tiger off the hook, only to figure out their loss when the dictator predicably took their show of weakness as an endorsement of his policies and continued with the landgrabs.

As democracies, France and the UK (I don't think the US ever gave a thought to intervening) had to pay attention to a deeply war-averse public opinion. Had they been dictatorships they might have taken action, but there's the weakness of democracy demonstrated.

Expect Putin to try and eat another chunk of Ukraine before the year is out.

If you mean annexation, I very much doubt that. Another frozen confict like Abkhazia, Transnistria and South Ossetia serves his purpose perfectly well.

 

[crescent]

The agreement mentions that the Tornado MLRS systems need to be pulled back, along with other missile systems.

The catch is, Russia never sold any of those to Ukraine, or to anyone, for that matter. If the separatists have them, then it would be pretty hard to deny that Russia has been supporting them. If they don't have them, it seems non-nonsensical for them to be mentioned in the agreement.

 

[Childlike Empress]

The agreement mentions that the Tornado MLRS systems need to be pulled back, along with other missile systems.

The catch is, Russia never sold any of those to Ukraine, or to anyone, for that matter. If the separatists have them, then it would be pretty hard to deny that Russia has been supporting them. If they don't have them, it seems non-nonsensical for them to be mentioned in the agreement.

Well, there has been some confusion about the recent Kramatorsk incident, where Porky blamed it on (as he stated in English) "Tornados", while the visual evidence shows (independent from the question where it came from) that it has been old soviet-era "Smerch" (also Tornado or whirlwind, in Russian) ammunition, so maybe it has to do with the "compromise" that both are mentioned. Also, the 140km range of withdrawal includes Russian territory (see NYT map), but on the other hand the Russian Army is not party to or mentioned in the agreement.

 

[Childlike Empress]

And the next Russian invasion is happening, proven again by murky Digital Globe images spread by the known clowns like Geoff Pyatt and Carl Bildt. At least the internet memes are more sophisticated and come faster than Grad return fire now. I especially like the Balalaika touch.

 

[CapelDodger]

If the separatists have them, then it would be pretty hard to deny that Russia has been supporting them.

Not at all. Just look into the camera and say the words. Easy as that.

Credible denial would be impossible, of course, but lets face it, we went past even plausible denial many moons ago.

 

[crescent]

So, technically, the cease fire started 15 minutes ago. Poroshenko has gone on the air and declared a cease fire.

Anybody think that an actual cease fire will occur? Will it last for any time at all?

 

[jimbob]

Meanwhile some more satellite imagery released by the US

https://twitter.com/GeoffPyatt/status/566427629390413825

Debaltseve. We are confident these are Russian military, not separatist, systems

 

[CapelDodger]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-doubt-clashes-rebels-russia-rockets-shelling

In an inauspicious omen for the prospects of any cessation of hostilities, rebels have said they will not consider any battles for [Debaltseve] to be a violation of the ceasefire.

If those rebels are credible sources, that would seem to be that.

 

[jimbob]

Childlike Empress, what evidence would convince you that Russia is sponsoring the rebels and supplying them with matériel?

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Do you have a source for that? I always keep half an eye on the far right and I hadn't come across it. I don't see why Putin and his ilk would want to undermine democracy; in their worldview democracy is a weakness, not a strength.

There's quite a lot, I'll give you the duck duck go search I just did on "european far right funded by russia". It all started when Marine Le Pen was forced to admit that she received €9m from the First Czech-Russian Bank. And Putin funding the far-right in Europe is an effort in destabilisation, and I'd bet that despite his rhetoric he doesn't think a functioning democracy (or what we've got currently a broad based representative republican system) to be weak, he just doesn't want to be kicked out on his ear next election. He is afraid of democracy, hence his affected contempt of it.

Knee-jerk black-hat/white-hat partisanship is indeed boring.


As democracies, France and the UK (I don't think the US ever gave a thought to intervening) had to pay attention to a deeply war-averse public opinion. Had they been dictatorships they might have taken action, but there's the weakness of democracy demonstrated.

To be honest, the people of Europe would have been a lot more sympatethic to a military intervention contra Putin than you give them credit for. It is the financial markets, multinational companies and property (and soccer club) buying oligarchs who are ******** a brick over any potential escalation of EU involvement in the situation. And because those groups speak loudest (and with the most bulging brown envelopes) to European politicians the pols take their cues from them.

If you mean annexation, I very much doubt that. Another frozen confict like Abkhazia, Transnistria and South Ossetia serves his purpose perfectly well.

I wouldn't be sure on that. Putin's regime is in a very tough situation at the moment, in serious financial difficulty at home, with a far-right stoked up to fever pitch by the government egging that government on, and a smouldering resentment at a non-existent wrong done to them. If Putin thinks Russia have any chance of a successful invasion (even if his Generals don't) chances are good he'll take it, in order to get a military victory to bolster his regime.

 

[dudalb]

Frankly,I am getting a little tired of this hipster cynicism which although supposedly condemns Putin seems to want to let him do whatever he wants.

 

[Childlike Empress]

And the next Russian invasion is happening, proven again by murky Digital Globe images spread by the known clowns like Geoff Pyatt and Carl Bildt. At least the internet memes are more sophisticated and come faster than Grad return fire now. I especially like the Balalaika touch.

Meanwhile some more satellite imagery released by the US

https://twitter.com/GeoffPyatt/status/566427629390413825

You really aren't paying attention, are you? I doubt you even know who Pyatt is. As to your question, it's beyond the point of the claims of these types, which are that the Russian regular army is invading and fighting in the Donbass, failing to provide credible evidence time and time again.

btw, the 14th large convoy of trucks with fat Russian flags on their sides has reached the attacked cities of the Donbass today.