Bill to Ban (some) Body Armor

tyr_13

Penultimate Amazing
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There is a bill introduced in the House that would ban the sale, ownership, or possession of 'enhanced body armor. It's not a long bill.

It does exempt current owners and government employees. Also, it defines 'enhanced body armor' thusly:

``(36) The term `enhanced body armor' means body armor, including a
helmet or shield, the ballistic resistance of which meets or exceeds
the ballistic performance of Type III armor, determined using National
Institute of Justice Standard-0101.06.''.

Type III armor protects from intermediate to full powered rifle rounds of the non-armor piercing design, up to 7.62x51 NATO (M80 Ball). Type I to type IIIA don't offer effective protection from almost any rifle rounds at all (besides .22LR).

I'm unsure what to make of this. What is the point? Is this a problem worth addressing? Is there fear of more North Hollywood gunman situations, rogue militia uprisings, or, something? The North Hollywood gunmen layered protection and home-made a lot of it. Would this bill make home armor that does happen to stand up to 7.62x51 illegal? Should the Hyneman stop working on next gen pikecreate-aluminum-portland cement body armor?
 
Military vehicle collectors in California used to have to remove the armor plating from their WWII half tracks. But that law was struck down in the 70s. Seems it was tough to regulate something that is absolutely defensive.

But introducing a bill is nearly meaningless too. Politics as usual I suppose, somebody is trying to buy some votes?
 
Of course government employees are exempt, they're special unlike the rest of us peons.

And of course Robin Kelly (D, Bloomberg) is a co-sponsor.
 
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf
2.4 Type III (Rifles)
Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). Type III flexible armor shall be tested in both the “as new” state and the conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). For a Type III hard armor or plate insert that will be tested as an in conjunction design, the flexible armor shall be tested in accordance with this standard and found compliant as a stand-alone armor at its specified threat level. The combination of the flexible armor and hard armor/plate shall then be tested as a system and found to provide protection at the system’s specified threat level. NIJ-approved hard armors and plate inserts must be clearly labeled as providing ballistic protection only when worn in conjunction with the NIJ-approved flexible armor system with which they were tested. 2.5 Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle)

I wonder why they are not interested in prohibiting lessor body armor?

Ranb
 
That's something I was wondering. Why just the most protective stuff? Why protective stuff at all? I remember that some families were buying armor for their relatives who are soldiers (and that some of it wasn't as good as the stuff they were being issued anyway, but I digress), so this would prevent that...for...some reason?

I'm confused.
 
That's something I was wondering. Why just the most protective stuff? Why protective stuff at all? I remember that some families were buying armor for their relatives who are soldiers (and that some of it wasn't as good as the stuff they were being issued anyway, but I digress), so this would prevent that...for...some reason?

I'm confused.
Some armor will stop nearly anything. Lesser armor will stop pistol rounds but not some long gun ammo. Perps who want to be able to shoot it out with the cops are going to need the highest level armor. I suspect this bill is meant to make it harder to get that level of protection.
 
Some armor will stop nearly anything. Lesser armor will stop pistol rounds but not some long gun ammo. Perps who want to be able to shoot it out with the cops are going to need the highest level armor. I suspect this bill is meant to make it harder to get that level of protection.

That's a possibility I considered, but all the instances of that have been layered and homebrewed setups that this would be very unlikely to prevent. That of course doesn't mean that isn't what they're trying to address, but I don't think it will actually help there.

That's why I speculated about concern for rogue militia groups, who tend to be a little better organized and might actually get the pro-made stuff.


EDIT: Does this mean it will be more difficult for me to get kevlar fabric and kevlar reinforced carbon-fiber fabric? Once I get some money again there were some projects I was hoping to us these materials for.
 
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Are there many instances of criminals in this sort of heavy armour causing problems for law enforcement?
 
How are we supposed shoot people to death if they're wearing armor? Good bill.
 
Are there many instances of criminals in this sort of heavy armour causing problems for law enforcement?

I can't address "this sort of heavy armour" (I don't know the armour specifications in these cases), but yes here are just 2 examples of crooks wearing body armour to protect themselves while committing crimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes

Here is an article that is a summary of multiple events:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._how_many_felons_wear_bulletproof_vests_.html

In a number of these cases, (e.g. those where the crooks did not immediately surrender) the body armour clearly protected the crooks from police gunfire. I don't know the total numbers or what you would consider "many instances."
 
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That's something I was wondering. Why just the most protective stuff? Why protective stuff at all? I remember that some families were buying armor for their relatives who are soldiers (and that some of it wasn't as good as the stuff they were being issued anyway, but I digress), so this would prevent that...for...some reason?

I don't personally believe that it is always productive to seek a reason, that is, an explanation that assumes that people always behave as rational agents. There is just too much evidence that people don't work this way. Most people are not only non-rational but outright irrational pretty much of the time. There is also a class of people who are more often rational and are attracted to situations where they can use their reason cynically to manipulate others' irrationality. One of the biggest draws is politics.

Short answer: this is probably all imagery, and there is no rational agency at work beyond the purely cynical and manipulative.

Protective stuff, as you put it, is in an interesting category. Unlike arms, it is not protected by the First Amendment. In an alternate universe, perhaps the Fourth Amendment is interpreted to apply to this, but it hasn't.

I do not agree with Republicans who say that Democrats are hell-bent on taking away your safety. The idea of an Obama ban on guns is particularly ludicrous, especially as IMO, Obama has been the most conservative President since Eisenhower. There is no evidence for this.

However, there is evidence that this attempts on banning have been done a lot, largely for imagery. Weapon bans are interesting. They are explicitly based on imagery, formerly that of the "Saturday Night Special" and more recently the "Assault Weapon" ban. The name itself is pure imagery, exploiting the fact that Americans are too stupid not to tell the difference between the vaguely defined "Assault Weapon" and the properly defined "Assault Rifle," which has been strictly limited since the 1930s and got more restricted during Reagan. An assault rifle has only been used in one murder in the US since the 1930s, and that was by an off-duty cop who had access to them anyway. Since the 1980s, civilian (assuming that police are not classified as civilian) ownership of new assault rifles has been banned. They are pretty much collectibles to be shot under supervision at ranges for fun. That's as opposed to, say, France. I have been assured by French people on this forum that they are fairly common and easy to get, though outright illegal for civilians to possess, unlike the US where they are legal with Federal licensing (but only old ones).

So the "assault weapon" category specifies things that are purely cosmetic, thus, imagery. They do not bear on the effectiveness or lethality as opposed to the category of "hunting rifle" in any meaningful way. "Assault rifles" tend to have scary black plastic instead of warm wooden stocks with pictures of bucks on them. Pure imagery. But there is a risk that, as laws get tested by more and more courts up to the supreme one, that you'll get a judge who knows something about firearms and who is clever and cynical enough to make use of the image of greater lethality in a ruling or opinion.

Body armor has no such legal protection, and so it has been a favorite for image-based political efforts since it became widely available in the early 1980s.

I remember some fellow progressives during that time suggesting body armor as a better idea for protection than handguns. Some even fantasized that by now, body armor would be considered a fashion accessory, so there's imagery there as well, and I have seen some pink handguns for sale. It's not a terrible idea from a rational perspective, though it wouldn't be of much practicality in Florida or other places where the sun shines. I had a good laugh, however, at their naïveté, however. All one needs is a video of some scrote in body armor being shot harmlessly by cops, and the ding-dong thing happens, especially if the scrote is black.

I note that the proposer of the bill is a Democrat from California, which is interesting, because California had a long-standing tradition for the right to bear arms, that is, until the Black Panthers started carrying rifles when patrolling their neighborhoods. There's some powerful imagery there, and it's resulted in a situation where California leads the nation in silly imagery-based gun control.

There are other gun-control traditions, but they make more rational sense: the Sullivan Law in New York started so that police controlled by Sullivan could drop revolvers into the pockets of Sullivan's political opponents as a pretense to arrest them. The situation was such that Sullivan's opponents took to sewing the pockets on their overcoats shut. This is much more obviously the work of rational agents than most things that happen in California.
 
Armour is "defensive" in the sense that you can't kill people with it directly. However having more armour than someone else is an excellent way to win a fight in relative safety, which is why people use it. Since law-abiding civilians don't walk around in armour that can take rifle fire that I'm aware of I don't see the social cost in prohibiting it for civilian purposes, unless you're one of the people who is polishing their guns for they day they overthrow the government.
 
Armour is "defensive" in the sense that you can't kill people with it directly. However having more armour than someone else is an excellent way to win a fight in relative safety, which is why people use it. Since law-abiding civilians don't walk around in armour that can take rifle fire that I'm aware of I don't see the social cost in prohibiting it for civilian purposes, unless you're one of the people who is polishing their guns for they day they overthrow the government.

Why do you hate America?
 
Armour is "defensive" in the sense that you can't kill people with it directly. However having more armour than someone else is an excellent way to win a fight in relative safety, which is why people use it. Since law-abiding civilians don't walk around in armour that can take rifle fire that I'm aware of I don't see the social cost in prohibiting it for civilian purposes, unless you're one of the people who is polishing their guns for they day they overthrow the government.


That argument is backwards. What is the benefit? Is this benefit real? People who are currently doing as you say get to keep their body armor. They are also unlikely to care about such a ban, likely to make this kind of armor out of other still legal armor, and extraordinarily unlikely to be caught in violation of this without already being arrested for something else. The armor that protects from the weapons likely to be used against them are also still legal if this bill passes.

The bill has to be justified with it's benefit, not simply acceptable because the perceived cost is low. This is especially true when the justification is simple vilification. 'Only bad people want Type III armor, so it's alright to ban' isn't a compelling argument.
 
Do you mean like police and military employees?
I don't think military are legally "employees", but police are certainly included.

Why should police have protections denied to civilians?
 
I suppose next they'll want to ban my cloaking device, force field, and owl summonator which respectively make me invisible, protect me from attack, and summon thousands of owls to do my bidding.

But to be serious, I think they should make an exception in the ban for any armor chest pieces shaped with enormous boobs. This would permit both Xena and Wonder Woman to continue their good work, and compel any male evildoers to go about with shapely boobs which would, given the current misogynistic nature of thug culture, prevent them from doing so, thus averting thousands of crimes. Just think, if the male criminal underclass were all compelled to have beautiful womanly bosoms, the crime rate would drop enormously (except for public indecency violations, which would skyrocket). All of my nonsense laid end-to-end and printed in Comic Sans is still more sensible than half the bills legislators propose.
 

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