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The US Civil War: why was the North so adamant about holding the Union together?

You can laugh, but I think Magyar's post pretty accurately expresses how northern Americans felt at the time.

But he's repeating it TODAY. There were probably very few educated northerners or southerners who weren't aware of the trends to democracy in Europe (on-and-off) and in the British Empire. But, today? There's really no excuse for thinking that No True Democracy exists outside of our republic or would not have existed had the American experiment failed. It's just foolish.

The laughing dog, therefore, is approved.
 
It turned out that they didn't have sufficient military force to exercise that right.
It may simply be a comment meaning "might is right". Or "rights" are what you are strong enough to do anyway.
 
But he's repeating it TODAY. There were probably very few educated northerners or southerners who weren't aware of the trends to democracy in Europe (on-and-off) and in the British Empire.

According to Gary Gallagher, Europe was trending in the opposite direction by the perception of Americans in the 1860s.
 
I would project if Buchanan had remained Pres, the south would have just walked out with best wishes. The key to the question is the difference between Buchanan and Lincoln. Lincoln said the nation could not have part slave and the other non slave. Also he realized the slave population was getting too great to be servile. Given politcal realities: how could Lincoln's party afford to be associated with the breakup?
 
It is difficult to describe the convergence that led to the Civil War without understanding the background. When they wanted to build the Erie Canal in New York in 1817 there were no engineers in the US with engineering degrees. The closest to this was the Army Corps of Engineers (based at West Point) which had been established by Jefferson just elven years earlier in 1806. The Erie project leader, Benjamin Wright, had worked under a British engineer and was familiar with surveying, and building roads and bridges. However, there was still not enough expertise, so Canvass White was sent to England to study their canal system.

With this deficiency made clear, West Point established an engineering degree that same year, 1817. The former superintendent and professor of engineers at West Point then started the Norwich school in Vermont which established its engineering degree in 1819. And, the man who advised the Erie Canal project on geology became the first professor at Rennselaer in New York which began offering engineering degrees in 1825.

There was a need for locomotives so people began trying to build them. However, none of the early locomotives such as the Tom Thumb, the Atlantic, or the Dewitt Clinton was comparable to the John Bull which was brought over from England in 1831. However, the Norris company demonstrated pulling power with their 4-2-0 locomotive up a grade in 1835 and 1836. By 1841 they were able to sell a locomotive to the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in England. So we could look at the 4-2-0 Norris locomotive as proof of engineering in the US.

The original zone of technology was heavily concentrated at Philadelphia. By 1860, Pennsylvania still accounted for half the manufacturing in the US, but technology had definitely spread. For example, Ohio by itself produced more manufacturing than Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee combined. And, it had spread farther west. The proof of this was that in 1861, the Union had no trouble going to James Eads in St. Louis and contracting the construction of seven City Class iron-clads. These were built from scratch in just five months. If the Civil War had begun in 1831 instead of 1861, the south would have been much closer in terms of technology. However, by 1852, the modern, American type 4-4-0 locomotive was introduced and rapidly adopted by 1855. This would be the dominant type for the next 25 years. It wasn't just technology though; it was also infrastructure. In 1840, a ton of coal cost $8-$10. By 1862, it cost 75 cents a ton. In contrast, the Confederacy relied on wood for its locomotives. In 1860, the North manufactured 97% of firearms, 96% of locomotives, 95% of rails, 94% of cloth, 93% of pig iron, 95% of iron products, and over 90% of boots and shoes in the US.

From 1843 to 1860 the price of slaves had tripled in the south to an average of $800. As a comparison, you could buy a house for $400. I've read some rather funny and distorted conclusions from this. If you do a simple multiplication: $800 x 3.5 million slaves = $2.8 billion. One author claimed that this was more value than all the factories and equipment in the north. This is not really accurate. The value of a slave is free labor; they don't replace a rolling mill or loom or blast furnace. The rapid increase in the demand for slaves made them seem much more valuable. In other words, if there had been such a thing as slavery stock in 1860 then your shares were worth three times as much as in 1843. You were wealthy on paper. However, what was not generally understood was that the rise in the price of slaves meant that slavery was losing advantage compared to paid labor. Also, not understood was that technology was advancing so quickly that having 39% of your labor force uneducated was not viable for sustained growth. This was clearly not understood with 87% of the economy of the south based on agriculture versus 40% of the economy in the rest of the country.

Income was more heavily concentrated in the top across the south. In the north roughly 31% of income went to the top 10% while 15% went to the bottom 40%. In the south, roughly 45% went to the top 10% and only 8% went to the bottom 40%. If you were in the top 10% in the south you had no reason to want anything to change. You were concerned that you had imported silk for your daughter's dress for her next party and that your wife had a porcelain or silver tea set. You were concerned that your son was going to a good private school and that you had a stable of good horses. You made money from land and slaves, from tobacco and cotton just as your grandfather had. You had no understanding in 1860 that the Bessemer process and Mushet steel would be perfected in the next few years and that by 1870 the US would more than triple its iron production. You had no grasp that the American 4-4-0 locomotive less than a decade old would be obsolete in another generation and locomotives would be twice that size.

However, it would not be fair to blame this all on the wealthy southerners. The working class people didn't mind if there were no bridges. If the train tracks ended at a river, that just meant more work for people to unload the train and load the ferry or riverboat. Towns kept tracks from passing completely through for the same reason: jobs unloading and driving wagons to another train. If passengers had to wait for another train to show up that only meant they had time to eat at a restaurant or get a room for the night. No one stopped to think that a labor intensive economy would fall apart with labor shortages during wartime. And who could have imagined that in 1863 when southerners, desperate for metal, were melting down church bells to make canons that northern shipyards would have enough spare iron, labor, and yard capacity to build an iron-clad for Italy.
 
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And who could have imagined that in 1863 when southerners, desperate for metal, were melting down church bells to make canons that northern shipyards would have enough spare iron, labor, and yard capacity to build an iron-clad for Italy.
Which was rammed and sunk by the Austrians three years later. A most unusual occurrence, that caused navies to equip ironclads with pointless and useless rams for a couple of decades. But as the CSS Virginia discovered too at Hampton Roads, that weapon really only works against ships at anchor. And even then, the ram broke off, though the ships under attack were unarmoured wooden vessels.
 
In particular, note the dependence of the industrial north, and indeed the entire industrialized world, on slave-produced cotton from the American south.

But I've read that the Confederacy* did not find markets for its cotton. I'm no expert. I researched this recently and decided the Union could not afford to allow a competitor with prime agricultural land and a slave labor force to emerge. It was an existential battle, fairly easy to call in terms of war vs. no war.

* post-Secession - Europe not wanting to take sides
 
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But I've read that the Confederacy* did not find markets for its cotton. I'm no expert. I researched this recently and decided the Union could not afford to allow a competitor with prime agricultural land and a slave labor force to emerge. It was an existential battle, fairly easy to call in terms of war vs. no war.

* post-Secession - Europe not wanting to take sides


You'll have to extrapolate on that. There was a market... that wasn't a problem. Getting the goods to market was, however. Even after the Union blockaded the Mississippi, Texas and Louisiana would still ship their cotton overland to Mexico where there were eager buyers. The cotton producers who relied on New Orleans, Mobile, Charleston and Savannah? No such opportunity.

No one in the south made any serious effort to get into production of textiles or spinning of yarns/thread. This wasn't forced on them by the Northern States. It was a complacent attitude towards a successful business model. They were an agricultural area and happy to be so. The big cities in the southern states were all based on a mercantile economy; the buying and selling and transportation of raw materials out and finished goods in. And they were mostly ports. (Atlanta was a major target but was really only a "big town" with a lot of wartime manufacturing because of its location as a rail hub. It was not a major manufacturing center before the war - having a population of under 10,000.)
 
Thanks for all the info. I like coming here to learn :)

An interesting item in the history of Texas in the Civil War is that the main battles that took place in Texas were for just that reason. The Union wanted to stop the cotton shipments from moving out via Mexico. By that point in the war, the ports of the Confederacy had all been captured. Prior to actually taking the ports, the profits were so high on blockade-running that many many shipments got through. Cotton was $0.10/lb in 1860. By the end of 1862 it was nearly $2.00! But with control of the ports, you couldn't be loading large shipments of huge bales of cotton out in the bayous and marshes, so Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina were essentially cut off from the market. Moving overland through Louisiana and Texas was out of the question once the Union controlled the lower Mississippi. But Texas and Louisiana both produced a lot of cotton, so enough got through via blockade running and then via the overland route to Mexico that it was still providing a sizable income to the Confederacy. Said income was "on paper". They actually dropped the cotton and took guns/supplies in exchange.
 
We often forget that even at this point and time in history most of the world viewed "democracy" as an "unnatural thing" and as Lincoln says an experiment.
If The south succeeded there would be no US. I don't really think that there would be anything left of the original 23 colonies and democracy would be a footnote in history

The USA is NOT, not not not a democracy. In fact the civil war proved that, thankfully. The USA is a constitutional republic, specifically to protect the minority from the effects of democracy, aka mob rule
 
The USA is NOT, not not not a democracy.

A quadruple negative is a positive, right?

In fact the civil war proved that, thankfully. The USA is a constitutional republic, specifically to protect the minority from the effects of democracy, aka mob rule

Can you explain what you mean? In what sense was the civil war about protecting a minority from mob rule? And how did it prove that the US is not a democracy?
 
A quadruple negative is a positive, right?



Can you explain what you mean? In what sense was the civil war about protecting a minority from mob rule? And how did it prove that the US is not a democracy?

If you want to get technical he's correct that the USA is a Constitutional Republic rather than a Direct Democracy, but most people nowadays would think of a USA style republic as a democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
 
Can you explain what you mean? In what sense was the civil war about protecting a minority from mob rule? And how did it prove that the US is not a democracy?

The southern states, through democratic process voted overwhelmingly that owning another human being was a great idea. That is democracy.

The civil war nullified that vote, but I don't like the idea that the civil war was simply reduce able to slavery, it really wasn't. I think the idea that the south was selling textiles to Europe at a higher price than the north was willing to pay had a giant lot to do with why the war was fought. The north didn't want slaves, but they sure didn't mind reaping the rewards of slavery. When those rewards were going to someone else is when they really seemed to get miffed
 
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Since when was the Isle of Man a country? Last I checked it was a Crown Dependency.
You stated, "sticking to the British Empire". The IoM was certainly in the Empire. It did then and does now have its own legislature. But if it doesn't qualify for your list, so be it.
 
The southern states, through democratic process voted overwhelmingly that owning another human being was a great idea. That is democracy.

Are you saying that the legality of slavery in the south was decided by a popular vote rather than by governors and state legislatures/courts? If not then I don't see how the history of slavery and the civil war has anything to do with representative republics being better than direct democracies.

The civil war nullified that vote, but I don't like the idea that the civil war was simply reduce able to slavery, it really wasn't.

Indeed it wasn't. The emancipation proclamation wasn't made until the war had been long underway. If the north had won the war quickly then slavery would have most likely remained intact for the time being.

My view, based on the evidence I've seen, is that the secession was largely about slavery. And the war was about the secession. The north's purpose in the war was preserving the union.

I think the idea that the south was selling textiles to Europe at a higher price than the north was willing to pay had a giant lot to do with why the war was fought. The north didn't want slaves, but they sure didn't mind reaping the rewards of slavery. When those rewards were going to someone else is when they really seemed to get miffed

Well, the north was fighting against slavery, to a degree, before the secession. Against its expansion and over various specific slave laws. It's also true that the whole country (and Western Europe as well) had benefited immensely from southern slave labor on an economic level. But I wouldn't say that the north was complacent about slavery during the build up to the civil war. It was in large part because of the north's resistance to slavery that the south tried to make their break.
 
You stated, "sticking to the British Empire". The IoM was certainly in the Empire. It did then and does now have its own legislature. But if it doesn't qualify for your list, so be it.

I also said:
New Zealand and Australia, incidentally, were the first two countries to grant Women's Suffrage, in 1893 for New Zealand and 1902 for Australia.
 

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