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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Stefanoni split the sample and used half of it. She decided not to split the remaining half as she feared to obtain no sample.
(But bear in mind that prof. Potenza and a magistrate were present and noted Stefanoni's extraction of the DNA profile).

There is no evidence that she split the sample.

It appears more likely that she took her 50 uL extraction sample and concentrated it down to 10 uL--enough to run one amplification--and then used up the entire sample during a single amplification process.

If she ever did split the sample and run two amplifications (which would have been the proper procedure), that is unknown to us. However, it would explain the missing plate no. 365 (first run, as opposed to 365bis, the re-run).

She did run two egrams for 36b, but they were taken off of the same amplification product, so they aren't helpful in deriving a consensus profile.
 
And if the defence wanted them, they would have asked them during the investigation and well before the end of the 2009 trial. And had the defence still wanted them after 2009, they would have submitted instances to the Supreme Court in order to have them and they would have asked them at the Hellmann appeal (which they did not do).

There is no "2009 trial." This is all one single trial, remember? But by all means, do let us know if you think there are separate trials, because then we will have a great big double jeopardy problem.

Anyway, they only need to ask for the information once, which they did . . . six years ago. And yet, it has never appeared (except to Novelli, who didn't ask for it until 2013).
 
No. Zero doesn't produce a profile when amplified, and that profile was a high quality profile.

I don't know about that. I've seen certain No Template Controls run by Stefanoni that have DNA in them. So obviously, Stefanoni has a way to generate a profile from 0.
 
Stefanoni has got herself into a bit of a double bind. If the quantity was above 100 pg then she had sufficient to run replicates, but she said the amount was too low to run replicates so she obviously thought it was much lower, probably less than 1000 ng (a hundred fold difference). 100 pg would not be LCNDNA, but everyone agreed it was, even Stefanoni never objected to this, so she obviously thought the amount was below 10 pg.

I think your measures are off, but this is a good point: Stefanoni believed that she didn't have enough DNA in 36b to run replicates. But, since the minimum amount that could be detected in the QF is 3ng in the 50 uL sample, there is no way that the QF could provide her with enough data to determine whether she could split a sample (i.e., a 50 uL sample could have had 2ng of DNA in it (plenty to allow a non-LCN split), and yet this would still report as "too low").

Moreover, I see no evidence that Stefanoni ever replicated ANY amplifications, and there are some amplifications that are clearly from LCN samples. She just never did it, it was not her protocol. So, all of this stuff about splitting samples and replications is just a great big Stefanoni lie.
 
I know opinions differ, but my assessment as a relative newcomer is that their discussions will be part of an advanced sociological dissertation reasonably soon, one which I would enjoy reading.

The indomitable Mr Pink, who Machine wanted to ban pretty early in his career at PMF just said

"There would be no hand-wringing if they were simply minor errors. I admire Nencini for his no nonsense approach to the PR campaign antics. I don't know what happened with the written report. Maybe he had to piece together a bunch of incompatible details that were determined to be facts by his fellow judges. Let's just say they reached the right verdict, but they got there in a broken-down Yugo with two flat tires and smoke coming off the engine."

I hope that has you chuckling platonov....

Pink is echoing what others are saying, that Nencini's motivations report is a stringing together of different reports by different authors. It's an explanation for why a point is sometimes developed early, but never completed - seemingly forgotten about.

It's strange, though, that one would still say Nencini reached the "right verdict", given that his reason for that verdict is mostly nonsensical.... including downright false info - like Raffaele's DNA being found on the blade of the kitchen knife.

Then there are other guilters - one of whom is taking Nencini to task for misreading the cell-tower info - that Amanda very well didn't leave Raffaele's to return the text to Lumumba about not going in tp work on Nov 1.

One wonders what it takes for the light to go on.....
 
And if the defence wanted them, they would have asked them during the investigation and well before the end of the 2009 trial. And had the defence still wanted them after 2009, they would have submitted instances to the Supreme Court in order to have them and they would have asked them at the Hellmann appeal (which they did not do).

Machiavelli,

I was in contact with some of the scientists who was consulting with the defense. The defense made multiple requests; all were turned down. The Johnson and Hampikian letter, which was co-signed by seven other forensic scientists, specifically discussed the EDFs.

There is no "2009 trial." This is all one single trial, remember? But by all means, do let us know if you think there are separate trials, because then we will have a great big double jeopardy problem.

Anyway, they only need to ask for the information once, which they did . . . six years ago. And yet, it has never appeared (except to Novelli, who didn't ask for it until 2013).


I have asked this before of Yummi - Why, in any case, should the EDFs not have been handed over without asking, in pre-trial discovery?

Italy has no support at the ECHR on this issue.

"The right to a fair hearing incorporates the principle of equality of arms.

This means that everyone who is a party to proceedings must have a reasonable opportunity of presenting his case to the court under conditions which do not place him/her at a substantial disadvantage vis-à-vis his/her opponent.A fair balance must be struck between the parties.

The right to a fair hearing also incorporates the right to adversarial proceedings, which means in principle the opportunity for parties to a criminal or civil trial to have knowledge of and comment on all evidence adduced or observations filed. In this context particular importance is to be attached to the appearance of the fair administration of justice.
In criminal cases, they overlap with some of the specific guarantees of Article 6 (3), but are not confined to those aspects of the proceedings. For example, the Court held in the case of Bönisch v Austria that when an expert witness appointed by the defence is not accorded the same facilities as one appointed by the prosecution or the court, there is a violation of Article 6 (1).
Further, the Commission held, in Jespers v. Belgium,that the equality of arms principle read together with Article 6 (3) b imposes an obligation on prosecuting and investigating authorities to disclose any material in their possession, or to which they could gain access, which may assist the accused in exonerating himself] or in obtaining a reduction in sentence. This principle extends to material which might undermine the credibility of a prosecution witness. In Foucher v. France the Court held that where a defendant who wished to represent himself was denied access by the prosecutor to the case file and not permitted copies of documents contained in it and thereby was unable to prepare an adequate defence, this was a violation of the principle of equal- ity of arms read together with Article 6 (3)."

http://www.echr.coe.int/LibraryDocs/DG2/HRHAND/DG2-EN-HRHAND-03(2006).pdf

pp 46/47

Remember, of course, that Italian law is meant to incorporate Convention law and must be applied in a convention compliant manner as per decisions 348 and 349 of the Constitutional court. So, why has it not been done? Why was there no discovery?
 
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This thread is getting long so a new continuation can be found HERE. As usual, the split point was arbitrary and please feel free to quote from previous thread(s) into the new one.
Posted By: Agatha
 
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