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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The ECHR has ruled trials unfair - not in accordance with Convention Article 6 - where the court and prosecution did not provide documentation, including computer records, that the defense has requested be put into evidence. It is also an obligation of the domestic court to assure that the defense is given the documentation, facilities, and time to prepare a proper defense. (...)

Whenever you talk about what ECHR would think is fair or unfair, you should make clear that this topic - whatever your opinion is - is a point of law, namely European HR law, thus it is something completely separate from claims and allegations about Stefanoni, which is what Kaosium is pushing.

Whatever your opinion is about the fairness of procedure, you have no factual elements for making accusations against Dr. Stefanoni or others (those allegations would be points of facts for which Kaosum and the pro-Knoxes have manifestly no evidence to support their claims).
 
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Which would you have used, out of interest?
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I don't know. I would have to walk around the building at night to see for myself.

I'm a ground floor kind of guy, so maybe I'm biased, and maybe that window is the best entry way, but from what I know now, I don't like that window as an entry,

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De Nile is not just a river in Egypt. The defense asked for the documentation for the results and didn't get what little it did until after July 30th, 2009 for a trial that started around October of 2008.

The investigation under the incdente probatorio started in Nov. 2007 and anded in June 2008. The defence experts could ask whatever they wanted and they were granted access to the laboratory. But they didn't request not access the evidence. Only prof. Vinci came.

Everybody in the legal world in Italy knows that evidence documentation is performed discussed by parties during the incidente probatorio when this procedure is applied, while no scientific expert discussion is usually admitted at the trial.

They complained they didn't receive all the documentation they needed (as per Massei) and asked that independent experts be appointed to evaluate the DNA evidence for the appeal.

Conti and Vecchiotti testified they had received all the documentation they had requested, and they praised the police forensics for being completely cooperative. They testified this on May 21. 2011.

Those independent experts asked for all data pertaining to the bra clasp and knife blade and did not receive what little they did until after their commission expired, requiring an extension.

Thse experts requested an extension because in May 2011 they made a further request of documentation, and it was to the Peugia Mobile squad (NOT Stefanoni's laboratory). It was not about the blade but about the police reports about the knife collection (which was prformed by the Perugia Mobile squad, not by the Rome forensics).

Do you remember when I quoted and showed the dates of when they received the data including peak area from Stefanoni and how it was after their original commission expired?

And so what? This means nothing. Vecchiotti and Conti made a series of requests, not just one. That one was only the last one.
And it was fulfilled.
Delays and shifting of terms are just the mst common of the common things in the Italian legal system, if this is what you complain about talking about Stefanoni, it's absolutely ridiculous.

The facts are, Vecchiotti praised Stefanoni for presenting her all the documentation she had requested.

By the way, you should also recall that there is independent evidence that Vecchiotti and Conti are liars, they cheated and lied in theor report and testimonies, don't forget that.

Do you recall posting the part of the transcript where Vecchiotti noted that the defense wanted the EDFs too?

They noted they wanted the data from the tests that Vecchiotti was about to perform (that means the "new" samples tested by Vecchiotti, including trace "I")
There wasn't - and couldn't be in Vecchiotti's report - any defence request about the raw data from the tests performed by Stefanoni.

Do you recall the ridiculous lies told by Comodi about how including the EDFs (a CD) would make the case file too large?

Absolutely not, and there is absolutely no lie. Comodi only made perfectly reasonable arguments, and anyway, if the defence didn't agree, they may well have explained the juge about their problem; the judge (judge Micheli in the first place) obviously recalled that the defence didn't request the data during the incdidente probatorio.

Chris Halkides was posting about the edfs from nearly the time he started posting on this case here, which was December of 2009, and he is in contact with the defense consultants and knows what they wanted and why.

Chris Halkides may know what they told him.
The trial papers prove the defence didnt request the data until the end of the 2009 trial, and even then, they were not clear about wanting raw data and failed to explain the court what they wanted and why, and why they were unable to have them previously.

Regarding the TMB negatives, she did those tests in December of 2008 and omitted them from her comprehensive technical report, the RTIGF and it wasn't discovered they existed until that July 30th, 2009 disclosure dump for a trial that was mostly over (all of August is a recess).

The SALs were released when they were requested.
They were released as the prosecution offered to release them - saying "yes" - only in 2009, precisely because the defence did not request this documentation during the investigation. And let's point out that prof. Potenza was there when the tests on luminol prints were done, and (testimony says) he assisted to the whole work till the end.

You can go into 'Deny Everything' mode as that keeps the dingbats and dupes in line, but you and I know better. This type of nonsense won't work with the sorts of people who'll be looking at this case in the future, they're more than familiar with corrupt officials and recognize 'Deny Everything' mode.

There is nothing to deny. There is simply nothing!
There is nothing in your "facts" that supports your wild allegations.
 
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I was discussing the issue of the break-in through Filomena's window with someone who has seen the Channel 5 documentary - showing how easy it is to get in through that window.....

And in response to the whole thing about which is the easiest route, which is the easiest or most logical entry point, he said:

"Why is it that a stupid burglar is not allowed to choose a stupid route into a building? Why does anyone with half-a-brain assume that looking at the break-in 'logically' has anything to do with ANY burglary."

I was stumped for an answer. Maybe Machiavelli can help!
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I agree with your friend. Sometimes how you break-in is what you feel comfortable doing. Logic really doesn't have anything to do with it. The only burglars that i can think of who would really use logic as to where to break-in would be someone breaking into a place with an alarm system. Maybe I'm wrong here.

It's why personally I wouldn't use that window. Like I've already said many times already, I'm a ground floor break-in kind of guy.

Besides, if a stager thought that was the best place to stage a break-in, why wouldn't a burglar? I'm still wondering about that one,

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Whenever you talk about what ECHR would think is fair or unfair, you should make clear that this topic - whatever your opinion is - is a point of law, namely European HR law, thus it is something completely separate from claims and allegations about Stefanoni, which is what Kaosium is pushing.

Whatever your opinion is about the fairness of procedure, you have no factual elements for making accusations against Dr. Stefanoni or others (those allegations would be points of facts for which Kaosum and the pro-Knoxes have manifestly no evidence to support their claims).

The ECHR will not (probably) make any directly negative statement about anyone, including Lab Tech "Doctor" Stefanoni. The ECHR is concerned with the actions of the respondent State, which will be Italy in this case. Any misconduct by any agent of the Italian State is attributable to Italy; that is how the Convention is set up.

The human rights violations judged by the ECHR will necessarily be addressed by Italy under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers. If Italy decides certain procedures or laws need to be changed, it will its responsibility to do so. If Italy decides any of its agents have violated the law or committed misconduct, it is up to Italy to deal with that.

Posters here or elsewhere who point out the issues of misconduct and fraud are actually trying to be helpful to Italy as well as Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito. The problems uncovered in the forensic lab under Stefanoni are the responsibility of Italy, and can only be pointed out by the posters.
 
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Granted, he is on the pro innocence but why should I believe your position over a forensic engineer? I could repeat what he wrote but what is the point, you can read his stuff already.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html

Edit: Looking at pictures of the rock, being that it broke easily, it is a soft rock which indicates it was not granite.
Looks like it is the size of an average brick. 4 kg seems a bit much for its weight. I would think 2 or 3 kg is far more likely.
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I have a jacket with zippered pockets big enough to hold that rock. You don't even really need to take the rock out of your pocket. You can also put your hand in and use a jacket-pocket to clean away a lot of the broken glass from the window..

Burglars as a group can be quite innovative,

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Here's another thought: If the "stagers" brought the lamp in to do their staging, wouldn't they have turned it on? Was it still on when the police entered the room? If not then did the "stagers" remember to turn off the lamp but forget to put it back in Amanda's room? That seems unlikely...
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Good point,

d

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I have a jacket with zippered pockets big enough to hold that rock. You don't even really need to take the rock out of your pocket. You can also put your hand in and use a jacket-pocket to clean away a lot of the broken glass from the window..

Burglars as a group can be quite innovative,

One of the items I noticed is that the retaining wall (I thing that is what I am looking at) has dirt up against it. It creates a slope that makes it easy to get between the patio and the lower yard area. I would have looked there for tracks.

Another item I note is that ion this article
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/window.html
There are pictures of clothing by the window that might have had foot prints. Being that there appear to be no pictures of them, it is more evidence of a poor job by the police.

Finally, I have dropped one item which causes another item to fall which then causes yet another. I see nothing strange about the paper back being ripped and knocked down by a rock thrown through the window.
 
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I agree with your friend. Sometimes how you break-in is what you feel comfortable doing. Logic really doesn't have anything to do with it. The only burglars that i can think of who would really use logic as to where to break-in would be someone breaking into a place with an alarm system. Maybe I'm wrong here.

It's why personally I wouldn't use that window. Like I've already said many times already, I'm a ground floor break-in kind of guy.

Besides, if a stager thought that was the best place to stage a break-in, why wouldn't a burglar? I'm still wondering about that one,

Wasn't the door reasonably solid as well. . . .Likely take a number of hits before being broken down.
 
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One of the items I noticed is that the retaining wall (I thing that is what I am looking at) has dirt up against it. It creates a slope that makes it easy to get between the patio and the lower yard area. I would have looked there for tracks.

Another item I note is that ion this article
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/window.html
There are pictures of clothing by the window that might have had foot prints. Being that there appear to be no pictures of them, it is more evidence of a poor job by the police.

Finally, I have dropped one item which causes another item to fall which then causes yet another. I see nothing strange about the paper back being ripped and knocked down by a rock thrown through the window.
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I agree about the paper bag.and the rock. I'm going to have to get a paper bag and a rock and see what happens to be sure though.

I'm sorry to use your post to ask this question again.

If you're not basing your decisions on confirmation bias, why would you believe non-evidence of Rudy in the break-in room helps prove his innocence of that crime, but Amanda's non-evidence in Meredith's room doesn't help prove her innocence of killing Meredith?

I don't get it. It just doesn't make any sense to me,

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Wasn't the door reasonably solid as well. . . .Likely take a number of hits before being broken down.
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Which door? The front door? I'm not as versed in the house as I should be I guess. I know the general layout of the rooms on the second floor and that the door to their apartment didn't lock without a key, but that's pretty much it. At least as far as I can think of off hand any way. Sorry.

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I agree about the paper bag.and the rock. I'm going to have to get a paper bag and a rock and see what happens to be sure though.

I'm sorry to use your post to ask this question again.

If you're not basing your decisions on confirmation bias, why would you believe non-evidence of Rudy in the break-in room helps prove his innocence of that crime, but Amanda's non-evidence in Meredith's room doesn't help prove her innocence of killing Meredith?

I don't get it. It just doesn't make any sense to me,

I do not know in any absolute sense if Guede broke in through the window or not. I would argue that, since we don't really have any physical evidence of him breaking in the room in that manner, we can still argue from a circumstantial position. I think he most likely broke in in that manner.

However, if there was not a sexual assault and murder case and it was only a case of breaking and entering, I think I would find him "not guilty" without some kind of solid evidence. I want a very strong circumstantial case before I will convict.

I have something similar in my own life. I was in a jury of a case of a felon with a firearm. He had a second charge of carrying a concealed weapon. He implicated himself on the stand of having the weapon (otherwise I would have argued for "not guilty") but there was no evidence of the weapon being concealed. Yes, I think the weapon was likely concealed but I did not think it was proven.

As far as Amanda and Raff, I would argue that we neither have a physical or circumstantial case against them. In fact, the circumstantial case points to innocence - Meredeth being murdered between 21:00 and 21:30 while they were on the computer.

I do think also that in the room where the murder occurred, it would be far more likely that there would be solid physical evidence. Even if there was no actual evidence that it was Amanda and Raff, I would expect evidence of four people being involved in a fight.
 
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I have a jacket with zippered pockets big enough to hold that rock. You don't even really need to take the rock out of your pocket. You can also put your hand in and use a jacket-pocket to clean away a lot of the broken glass from the window..

Burglars as a group can be quite innovative,

d

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Worth remembering that Guede was often seen with a zaino...backpack. Perfect for a burglar to hide gold watches, glass hammers, knives and rocks in. Could even scale a wall maybe with that on his back.

( re zaino and 'often', it was mentioned by friends/acquaintances plus he had it when caught in Maria del Prato's asilo in Milano)
 
Whenever you talk about what ECHR would think is fair or unfair, you should make clear that this topic - whatever your opinion is - is a point of law, namely European HR law, thus it is something completely separate from claims and allegations about Stefanoni, which is what Kaosium is pushing.

Whatever your opinion is about the fairness of procedure, you have no factual elements for making accusations against Dr. Stefanoni or others (those allegations would be points of facts for which Kaosum and the pro-Knoxes have manifestly no evidence to support their claims).

It is high time that you understood that "European HR law" is also Italian "HR law". The right of defendants to have speedy access to the evidence against them and to have disclosed to them that which is helpful to them and unhelpful to the prosecution, is an essential element in the convention and its case law supporting findings of Article 6 violations. There must be "equality of arms".

So, all "unused material" by the prosecution should be available to the defence to scrutinise should they wish to do so. The bulk of this material regardless of the reasons you might cite, has never been made available to the defence and Stefanoni's report omitted information, which, when disclosed, demonstratively weakened the prosecution's case.

You appear to be arguing in these threads variously, either that the defence could have had anything it wanted if only it had asked, or, that what the defence asked for it got and in a timely fashion. The transcripts do not support either position. Additionally, tests requested by the defence, in particular the putative semen sample, were refused.

Italian law, as far as I can discern, requires that all "investigatory material" must be handed to the defence; this would be in harmony with the requirements of Article 6. In other words, I do not see why the requirement to disclose is in any case, "request dependent".

If you wish to argue that Italian law does not impose this requirement on the prosecution, I would be interested to hear your argument from the code as to what is required. However, you should be aware that if the law is incapable of being applied in a convention compliant manner, then it must be unconstitutional.

It is axiomatic that the disclosure even now at this late stage of all the unused material in this case will be of a profoundly helpful nature in relation to the task of assessing the value of the evidence presented against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito. I fail to see how anyone actually interested in the truth would not be supportive of such disclosure.
 
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The issue of funding didn't occur to me. In the US the defense would pay the costs of testing it wanted to do. The court could choose to require that a place be tested for acoustics; I doubt that a court could require someone who was only a witness to be audiometrically tested if he/she did not want to be.
I am rather lazily guessing that this is possible. Witnesses are compellable (i.e. they may be obliged to give evidence, like it or not) and the compulsion extends to producing documents to the court. A civil court certainly has powers of compulsion over third parties, although invasion of property might not be among them.

It doesn't matter because the worst that can happen is that at trial you get to ask: Now then, Mrs Capezzali, you expect the court to believe you heard this blood-curdling scream that you elected to tell nobody about for a year, but yet you have refused to let the defence test the acoustic properties of your apartment. Why is that?
 
Here's another thought: If the "stagers" brought the lamp in to do their staging, wouldn't they have turned it on? Was it still on when the police entered the room? If not then did the "stagers" remember to turn off the lamp but forget to put it back in Amanda's room? That seems unlikely...

It wouldn't have been on by the time the door swung open as the theory is that the cord was yanked out of the wall. Maybe it has a switch with an 'on' and an 'off' position that would have told an alert and attentive detective (Columbo for instance) how it was left. Pity there weren't any on hand :D
 
You expect evidence that something did not happen. Namely expect that evidence is presented that police officers did not tamper with a murder scene doing something nonsensical. This is foolish.

The lamp was photographed behind the door as obviously pushed aside by the door when it was broken wide open.

Are you able to state in a clear, coherent manner what, exactly, is relevant to the case against Amanda Knox and why, of the presence of her lamp in Ms Kercher's room? Nencini seems to think it is significant but does not explain why.

What do you think it proves?
 
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Worth remembering that Guede was often seen with a zaino...backpack. Perfect for a burglar to hide gold watches, glass hammers, knives and rocks in. Could even scale a wall maybe with that on his back.

( re zaino and 'often', it was mentioned by friends/acquaintances plus he had it when caught in Maria del Prato's asilo in Milano)
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I didn't know that about the zaino. I've always had a backpack with me all the time and still do. I don't know if you could use it to carry a rock. Could you swing it around easily to the front or is it a back pack you wear in the front. That would be better. Keep the center of gravity towards your front. Worth thinking about.

Good catch and thank you,

I'm now just wondering if it's a good tactical idea to climb up to throw the rock through the window. How do you physically do that? I gotta find me a 4 kg rock and do some test. I'm wondering if you can get enough leverage to actually throw the rock, or maybe you wouldn't have to.

I need to think about this some more,

d

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All what you say has nothing to do with your allegation against Dr. Stefanoni, there is not a single fact there to support your false allegation that Stefanoni lied or hid results.
Stefanoni presented the e-grams when she was requested - this is information that comes from her, that she did not hide, but rather provided to the defence, even if the defence failed to do their request she it was due time - the simple and true fact, that you try to dance from your consciousness, together with all its legal and thus factual implications, is that the defenses did not request such documentation when it was due time for evidence documentation.

Now all your defensive complaints are nothing but complaints about documenting and providing documentation. That is what the defence decided not to do, every time when they were invited to do so.
The defence experts did not request to access Stefanoni's laboratory - thus did not come to access the raw data about the knife - not even when a phase of trial discussion (rinnovazione dibattimentale) was re-opened by Hellmann. Prosecution expert Novelli did go to Stefanoni's laboratory to read electronic data, the defence experts did not.
Not even Vecchiotti requested raw data, insofar we know she said she had obtained all what she had requested.

So the simple truth is the defence did not document the incidente probatorio and did not access the laboratory despite they were told Stefanoni would grant the access, they never did so for over 7 months, all the time when they could have access, until June 2008.

And all what the defence complain about is nothing but documentation. When we know the reason why they don't have some information, is precisely because they never wanted information. They were never interested in documenting evidence, when they could do that with no problem.

So Stefanoni never hid anything, and she never "tried to hide" anything neither, since there is absolutely no element to state so. What you can only say, is that when she was requested SALs, she provided those that she kept, and all what you know from them, you know because she chose to let you know it since she provided the SALs herself testifying the were authentic documentation. This is all you can't say: no element to say she was attempting to hide documentation information she provided herself!

Besides, it is also not true that she ever testified something false about such documentation, in fact in her 2008 testimony she herself says "we made several tests" beyond luminol on the footprints. This is what she says herself, without even being questioned about it.

I am not sure you mean what you have written here. You imply that she kept some SALs and therefore that there were some she did not keep. Disposing of laboratory records / field notes raises all sorts of alarms with me and I am sure with others who work in laboratory environments.

I think it was TomB who said how he was taught that when you make a correction you make a ruled line so the deleted comment can be read initial and date and insert correction. This is also how I was taught in a different specialisation in a different country. Many scientists keep their note books all their life, in the UK forensic material is stored until completion of sentence.
 
I am not sure you mean what you have written here. You imply that she kept some SALs and therefore that there were some she did not keep. Disposing of laboratory records / field notes raises all sorts of alarms with me and I am sure with others who work in laboratory environments.

I think it was TomB who said how he was taught that when you make a correction you make a ruled line so the deleted comment can be read initial and date and insert correction. This is also how I was taught in a different specialisation in a different country. Many scientists keep their note books all their life, in the UK forensic material is stored until completion of sentence.

I have notebooks going back decades. And I have had occasion to have to dredge information from them too.
 
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