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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Did the prosecution present any empirical tests or analyses (such as finite element computer modeling) to support its hypothesis regarding the window break-in? Did Judge Massei present any such tests or analyses?

If not, from an engineering POV, there was no objective support for the hypothesis by either prosecution or judge. And doesn't the burden of proof rest on the prosecution? In a fair trial, in accordance with the Convention, that is.

What hypothesis exactly?

There are many ways of skinning a cat, I guess. The prosecution can prove the burglary was staged by inviting the court to draw inferences from the sheer improbability that a real, professional burglar would ever choose that window and from other evidence purportedly suggesting a scenario quite different from the lone wolf burglar one and that the inferences are so strong that scientific demonstrations are unnecessary. I see nothing wrong in principle with that, it's just that the application of the principle in this case gives rise to very weak (if any) inferences at all. I don't think the prosecute has to prove, in general, that what it is suggesting is not impossible*.

Is it possible for Nara to have heard the scream? I don't think it is so if I were a juror I would want that demonstrated for me if I were not to reject this part of the prosecution case (which I might still reject anyway for other reasons including her unreliability) but I don't think the prosecution is obliged to prove in any particular way whether she heard the scream.

*this may be too sweeping. We had a case of a guy who was found naked and dead inside a bag in his bath, itself within his locked apartment. At the inquest, evidence from an 'expert' was given that he could not have closed himself within the bag, the expert having tried repeatedly to do it himself, proving it was not suicide. Laughably, right after the inquest, some kid showed how to do it easily. Leaving that aside, suppose they found a suspect and accused that person of murder, using CCTV, DNA forensics, fingerprints and all sorts. On whom would the burden have fallen to show it was impossible for the guy to have trussed himself up? The party alleging impossibility or the crown as part of its burden of closing all avenues of reasonable doubt?
 
What hypothesis exactly?

There are many ways of skinning a cat, I guess. The prosecution can prove the burglary was staged by inviting the court to draw inferences from the sheer improbability that a real, professional burglar would ever choose that window and from other evidence purportedly suggesting a scenario quite different from the lone wolf burglar one and that the inferences are so strong that scientific demonstrations are unnecessary. I see nothing wrong in principle with that, it's just that the application of the principle in this case gives rise to very weak (if any) inferences at all. I don't think the prosecute has to prove, in general, that what it is suggesting is not impossible*.

Is it possible for Nara to have heard the scream? I don't think it is so if I were a juror I would want that demonstrated for me if I were not to reject this part of the prosecution case (which I might still reject anyway for other reasons including her unreliability) but I don't think the prosecution is obliged to prove in any particular way whether she heard the scream.

*this may be too sweeping. We had a case of a guy who was found naked and dead inside a bag in his bath, itself within his locked apartment. At the inquest, evidence from an 'expert' was given that he could not have closed himself within the bag, the expert having tried repeatedly to do it himself, proving it was not suicide. Laughably, right after the inquest, some kid showed how to do it easily. Leaving that aside, suppose they found a suspect and accused that person of murder, using CCTV, DNA forensics, fingerprints and all sorts. On whom would the burden have fallen to show it was impossible for the guy to have trussed himself up? The party alleging impossibility or the crown as part of its burden of closing all avenues of reasonable doubt?

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Yes, what you are describing could be (or was) the prosecution strategy. But the defense did counter what it thought was that strategy. Did the judge reasonably account for the defense counter and the prosecution allegation (or hypothesis), and reasonably decide between them? Or did the judge realize that the prosecution hypothesis was not viable, and so assumed the role of prosecutor, providing his own hypothesis, which the defense was not aware of and thus could not rebut, and the judge then made his hypothesis the judicial finding.

Have I described the situation accurately? If so, is the judgment in the case fair in this respect of whether or not the break-in was staged? And if it this element of staging a break-in is important for the conviction, is it fair over-all? And of course, if it leads to an unfair conviction, there is a violation of Convention Article 6.

How did Nencini treat the issue of the alleged staged break-in? (I actually don't remember.) Was it fair or unfair in itself, and was it fair or unfair in terms of Nencini's judgment of conviction?

ETA: With respect to Nara and the "scream": the defense attempted to challenge the possibility that it could have been heard, using audiometric testing, IIRC. The judge (Massei) denied the defense request. What was the reason for the denial? Was it fair or arbitrary? Was the result important for the conviction? If yes, then if it was arbitrary, the conviction is burdened by that unfair denial of a defense request, and there would be further grounds for ECHR to judge a violation of Convention Article 6.

ETA2: The prosecution, in proposing something which is physically impossible as a basis for conviction, will generally be countered by the defense. Perhaps all the defense would do is bring in an expert to state that there is a physical impossibility. Does the prosecution have evidence that contradicts the defense argument? But the argument must be fairly adjudicated, and the judge can of course bring in experts to help resolve differences. But I don't believe the judge can play the role of prosecutor; if the prosecution case is not viable, then the defense must be acknowledged as "winning", the judge cannot substitute a new prosecution theory or hypothesis for one that has failed. And certainly not one the defense has not had the opportunity to evaluate and rebut. Do you see otherwise?
 
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{Highlighting added to quote.}

Yes, what you are describing could be (or was) the prosecution strategy. But the defense did counter what it thought was that strategy. Did the judge reasonably account for the defense counter and the prosecution allegation (or hypothesis), and reasonably decide between them? Or did the judge realize that the prosecution hypothesis was not viable, and so assumed the role of prosecutor, providing his own hypothesis, which the defense was not aware of and thus could not rebut, and the judge then made his hypothesis the judicial finding.



Have I described the situation accurately? If so, is the judgment in the case fair in this respect of whether or not the break-in was staged? And if it this element of staging a break-in is important for the conviction, is it fair over-all? And of course, if it leads to an unfair conviction, there is a violation of Convention Article 6.
Forgive me, Numbers, but I don't actually know what the prosecution contended nor what the defence counter was. So I can't meaningfully comment.

How did Nencini treat the issue of the alleged staged break-in? (I actually don't remember.) Was it fair or unfair in itself, and was it fair or unfair in terms of Nencini's judgment of conviction?
I think he rejected the idea Guede came in through the window on the laughable premise that, as a pro, he would have jemmied the door. Note how in the course of the proceedings Guede was imperceptibly transformed from a misunderstood guy trying to do his best into a pro burglar (i.e. when it suited some specious argument he was allowed to be what his suspiciously unpublicised conviction for the Milan job shows he was - a crook)

ETA: With respect to Nara and the "scream": the defense attempted to challenge the possibility that it could have been heard, using audiometric testing, IIRC. The judge (Massei) denied the defense request. What was the reason for the denial? Was it fair or arbitrary? Was the result important for the conviction? If yes, then if it was arbitrary, the conviction is burdened by that unfair denial of a defense request, and there would be further grounds for ECHR to judge a violation of Convention Article 6.
The reason for the denial of the request was:

3) In relation to the request for an audiometric examination in order to verify the veracity or not of the testimony given in Court by witnesses Capezzali, Dramis and Monacchia, the technical assessment requested, without questioning the reliability of the witnesses statements, is not required for the evaluations that this Court will have to make as to the reliability of such statements, which must therefore be evaluated in correlation with the other circumstantial evidence;

Pick the bones out of that.
 
The reason for the denial of the request was:

3) In relation to the request for an audiometric examination in order to verify the veracity or not of the testimony given in Court by witnesses Capezzali, Dramis and Monacchia, the technical assessment requested, without questioning the reliability of the witnesses statements, is not required for the evaluations that this Court will have to make as to the reliability of such statements, which must therefore be evaluated in correlation with the other circumstantial evidence;

Pick the bones out of that.

In other words, the issue is not, "did it happen?", the issue is, "does it fit my theory of who did it?"

Ah, the legal concept of compatibility, not the legal concept of evidence. We need that here in North America.
 
Forgive me, Numbers, but I don't actually know what the prosecution contended nor what the defence counter was. So I can't meaningfully comment.


I think he rejected the idea Guede came in through the window on the laughable premise that, as a pro, he would have jemmied the door. Note how in the course of the proceedings Guede was imperceptibly transformed from a misunderstood guy trying to do his best into a pro burglar (i.e. when it suited some specious argument he was allowed to be what his suspiciously unpublicised conviction for the Milan job shows he was - a crook)


The reason for the denial of the request was:

3) In relation to the request for an audiometric examination in order to verify the veracity or not of the testimony given in Court by witnesses Capezzali, Dramis and Monacchia, the technical assessment requested, without questioning the reliability of the witnesses statements, is not required for the evaluations that this Court will have to make as to the reliability of such statements, which must therefore be evaluated in correlation with the other circumstantial evidence;

Pick the bones out of that.

Let's skip over Massei for now.

Now that you mention Nencini's reasoning, I can only wonder how I forgot such a beautiful example of specious reasoning. Nencini's reasoning is that Guede is such a pro burglar, he could only have entered through the front door. And since going through a window was a well-known (by police) MO for him, he certainly wouldn't use it, and therefore only someone wanting it to appear as though he had burgled the place would stage a break-in through the window.

I don't believe whatsoever that the Nencini statement paraphrased above will be considered as fair rather than arbitrary reasoning by the ECHR. And it certainly influences the over-all fairness of the conviction, since if burglars sometimes continue to follow their established MOs, and there is no objective reason for Guede not to have done so in this case, then there is no need for a key-holder (namely, Amanda Knox) to have let him in.

Now for the screams in the night, it seems arbitrary to me that the defense was denied audiometric verification simply because the court (Massei) didn't feel the need. It is really, according to ECHR judgments, the defense's right to get its evidence and counters into the record for judgment. The exceptions would be for extraordinary situations, for example, a national security need or a confidential agent need to prevent disclosure of identity. And in such cases, a judge typically must review the actual information that the defense is not allowed to inspect. Clearly, those exceptions are not present in this case. So ECHR will rule this denial of a defense request for evidence unfair, and a conviction based on it unfair, a violation of Convention Article 6.

The bottom line is that any retrial resulting from an ECHR ruling must follow Convention Article 6, so all the unfair evidence from the original trials cannot be included, and all the requested defense evidence unfairly excluded from the original trials must be included.
 
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Anode said:
Yes, but if you consider the police infallible, then it is evidence of a clean-up.

Is it wrong for me to consider that Amanda and Meredeth's DNA probably came from the gloves of the investigators?

Reminder: at trial in 2009, when shown her own department's video of the Dec 2007 second-round evidence collection, Patrizia Stefanoni not only wore obviously dirty gloves (seen clearly in the close-ups), but when cross examined....

..... could neither confirm nor deny that she herself had touched the hooks of the bra-clasp as she turned it over in her hands.
 
...

Now that you mention Nencini's reasoning, I can only wonder how I forgot such a beautiful example of specious reasoning. Nencini's reasoning is that Guede is such a pro burglar, he could only have entered through the front door. And since going through a window was a well-known (by police) MO for him, he certainly wouldn't use it, and therefore only someone wanting it to appear as though he had burgled the place would stage a break-in through the window.

I don't believe whatsoever that the Nencini statement paraphrased above will be considered as fair rather than arbitrary reasoning by the ECHR. And it certainly influences the over-all fairness of the conviction, since if burglars sometimes continue to follow their established MOs, and there is no objective reason for Guede not to have done so in this case, then there is no need for a key-holder (namely, Amanda Knox) to have let him in.

....

The bottom line is that any retrial resulting from an ECHR ruling must follow Convention Article 6, so all the unfair evidence from the original trials cannot be included, and all the requested defense evidence unfairly excluded from the original trials must be included.

When Guede was arrested at the nursery in Milan, he had a small hammer in his possession. An ideal tool for breaking a window, or for breaking off pieces of glass adjacent to the hole made in a window by a thrown rock.
 
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Platonov plainly does not understand the significance of the glass distribution so pretends it's not a problem, which is ridiculous, while Machiavelli seriously considers the possibility that the window was broken from outside by someone standing inside. That would mean (I presume) opening the right hand window and the outer shutters reaching out with rock in hand and then throwing it in through the left hand window. To further the impersonation of an external throw the stager would have had to then pick some shards out of the frame (as Guede did) to simulate someone on the outside needing to reach inside to unlatch the window so as to climb in. Seems fanciful at best, like many guilter explanations of things that always have a much simpler explanation (Guede did it).


Yet another reboot on Machiavelli's part. He has long ago run out of crap to throw at the wall and is recycling old discredited crap that has no stick left. By looking at the pieces in isolation he finds credible explanations for each piece. But where Machiavelli is standing to do his one handed imitation of a 3 point shot is exactly where he cannot be to put this one in the bag.
 
You don't have to pick the points in isolation. There is a single innocent scenario that explains all of them.

This doesn't mean that you are allowed to present points that are actually false. So these will be obviously singled out. In other words, lies and falsities may not be used to strengten other pieces of evidence.

There isn't any.

And also, you can't build a scenario with a series of points each of which is weaker then the alternative option.

I am obviously not presenting any false point.
But an alleged coercive interrogation of Amanda Knox is lie. A police conspiracy or accusations against Stefanoni are lies.
 
If you cannot be honest about what evidence exists then there is no reason for anyone to pay attention to what you say. We have discussed the writting on the wall and the doctors analysis of it. Have you got anything to add that we don't already know?

Yes. I suggest you turn the book the other way.
 
Yes. My understanding is the prosecution only ever claimed the window was broken from the inside. The prosecution never specified any details this was 'left' to the judge. This meant there was never really a prosecution hypothesis for the defence to refute.

First, people should understand that there isn't a bond on a "prosecution scenario". Indeed the judges and the civil parties can put forward their own variants, without affecting the trial under a legitimacy point of view.

Second, as far as I know, there wasn't any specific prosecution scenario about how the window was smashed by the stagers. That was basically a judges "favoured" scenario. Evidence abot the direction of the rock has been widely discussed in trial instances, there was even a defence video discussed, about which the only objection by the prosecution was that it didn't take into account the external shutters.
 
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From what I now know, I wouldn't personally have used that window, and I would have to see the house myself before saying that definitively, but I do wonder, why would a stager think that was the perfect place to stage a break-in and not a burglar?

If it's true that Rudy used a similar method of entry before, then it adds weight to the arguement that's what Rudy did there also.

It's also interesting that someone who thinks Raffaele and Amanda are probably guilty (and don't think they are a victim of confirmation bias), also thinks no evidence of Rudy in the break-in room helps to prove that Rudy didn't commit that crime, but no evidence of Amanda in Meredith's room doesn't help to prove Amanda didn't commit that crime.

How exactly does that make sense?

d

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Which would you have used, out of interest?
 
There isn't any.

And also, you can't build a scenario with a series of points each of which is weaker then the alternative option.

I am obviously not presenting any false point.
But an alleged coercive interrogation of Amanda Knox is lie. A police conspiracy or accusations against Stefanoni are lies.

The police have produced no records of the interrogation - strange don't you think?

As far as the ECHR is concerned - whose opinion matters as yours does not - it was coercive (you would know this if you understood case law). Additionally, there was no lawyer, no valid waiver and (whether you like it or not) statements obtained without benefit of counsel were used to convict.

As for Stefanoni - it is astonishing that you have spent more than five years denying that she mislead the court and more recently asserting that an analysis of the data dump does not reveal the presence of contamination, the withholding of evidence which must be of a exonerating nature and sharp practice.

She should be struck off or in prison or both.
 
Mach - can you remind me which witness testified that the lamp was already in the room when the door was broken open (clue: there isn't one)

Maybe you don't have a clear concept about the burden of proof here.

and tell me the results of the tests conducted on the lamp for prints (e.g. on the plug) and DNA (hint: there were no tests)?

No. So what?

Thanks in advance. Amazing how this item of 'undoubted significance' (Nencini) was dealt with by the muppets who prosecute and try serious criminal cases in Italy. Massei totally ignored it and Nencini treated its presence as a fact without any evidence. Weird.

They did so with several pices of evidence, which were in fact usable. Yet you think they acted as unfavourable judges only discarding exculpatory evidence. Indeed, they left out incriminating evidence too. They left out Knox's diary or her phone contacts with drug dealers, etc.
 
The police have produced no records of the interrogation - strange don't you think?

No. I don't think it's strange, at all.

As far as the ECHR is concerned - whose opinion matters as yours does not - it was coercive (you would know this if you understood case law).

It wasn't - except in the dreams of posters who think the Italian Judiciary celebrates Mussolini's birthday.

Additionally, there was no lawyer, no valid waiver and (whether you like it or not) statements obtained without benefit of counsel were used to convict.

You know, basically crimes are committed by people while they have no lawyers counsel.

As for Stefanoni - it is astonishing that you have spent more than five years denying that she mislead the court and more recently asserting that an analysis of the data dump does not reveal the presence of contamination, the withholding of evidence which must be of a exonerating nature and sharp practice.

What is astonishing is your foolish conspiracy theory. How you are willing to "convict" some people with no shred of evidence or clue whatsoever in your hands, and willing acquit other ones despite loads of evidence at the same time.
 
What is astonishing is your foolish conspiracy theory. How you are willing to "convict" some people with no shred of evidence or clue whatsoever in your hands, and willing acquit other ones despite loads of evidence at the same time.

The only conspiracy theory in this case is yours - the one involving Guede, Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito; the only attempt to "convict some people with no shred of evidence" lies with your side.

As for Stefanoni, we actually have real evidence of her incompetence, stupidity and criminal mischief - what say you about the differences between her report, her testimony and the partial disclosure of data before the end of the Massei trial? Can you see no problem at all?
 
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