Split Thread David Gilroy: murder conviction goes to Scottish Review Commission

[anglolawyer]

Yes, that was the conclusion I was coming to. You don't need the dogs. It's the rest of the evidence that suggests the dogs were probably right.

Did the police have the receipt for the air freshener?

They had CCTV footage from the store ('Quintavalle's') where he bought the stuff.

 

[Rolfe]

 

[Information Analyst]

All this talk of unsolved murders/disappearances reminded me of a case from my childhood that I was surprised to discover was the subject to a reinvestigation a couple of years ago. The stated, "connections to sportsmen and businessmen in the area," was that she was having an affair with one of my father's team-mates (who had a cast-iron alibi and no motive) at the Rugby Union club he used to play for. Even at the time my mother said she was obviously dead, as she was utterly devoted to her son, and so firstly would never have left him, and secondly would not have been in some sort of contact subsequently. The report of her getting in to a car with an unidentified man, of course, came only from the estranged husband, the butcher.

 

[Rolfe]

It is a great example of circumstantial evidence at work and a very useful comparator for other cases, especially the Knox case, where the guilters are always wittering on about such evidence (the osmotic case) without having the first idea what they are talking about. In Gillroy it all stands up and it all points one way to a coherent picture. Neither applies in the other case.

It's pretty horrifying, that a man could kill like that in such a mundane setting. I wonder if there were any incidents in his past to suggest he was capable of it?

I've been looking at the maps, and although Loch Ness as suggested by Duffy Moon isn't in the frame, he could easily have dumped her in Loch Awe which is probably deep enough! And he wouldn't have lost all that time. But then again there's a road right alongside the loch and a big chance of someone seeing what was going on. Lochsides tend to be overlooked from multiple vantage points. And he'd have needed a boat, and where would he have got one?

I think he's gone into one of these forest areas bordering the A819, and gone right off the forestry track to find somewhere to bury her. I'd have tried to trace him acquiring tools, like a spade, and maybe buying a large-scale OS map of the area to scope out a likely site. If he got the body reasonably deep (I assume he's a strong man who could dig a grave quickly), and staged the site with some vegetation, it would have to be found pretty quickly before nature just absorbed it back into itself.

 

[anglolawyer]

It's pretty horrifying, that a man could kill like that in such a mundane setting. I wonder if there were any incidents in his past to suggest he was capable of it?

I've been looking at the maps, and although Loch Ness as suggested by Duffy Moon isn't in the frame, he could easily have dumped her in Loch Awe which is probably deep enough! And he wouldn't have lost all that time. But then again there's a road right alongside the loch and a big chance of someone seeing what was going on. Lochsides tend to be overlooked from multiple vantage points. And he'd have needed a boat, and where would he have got one?

I think he's gone into one of these forest areas bordering the A819, and gone right off the forestry track to find somewhere to bury her. I'd have tried to trace him acquiring tools, like a spade, and maybe buying a large-scale OS map of the area to scope out a likely site. If he got the body reasonably deep (I assume he's a strong man who could dig a grave quickly), and staged the site with some vegetation, it would have to be found pretty quickly before nature just absorbed it back into itself.

Rolfe

Since we aren't going to attract any pro-innocence posters to this one, your post gives me an idea. Let's find the body! I'll meet you in Inverary at 10 on Saturday morning.

 

[Rolfe]

Inveraray is scheduled to be under rather a lot of cold fluffy white stuff by Saturday morning. Better wait for the thaw.

I expect once the SCCRC refuse him leave to appeal (which I think they will) and he comes up towards the point where he might be looking at parole, they might make fessing up to the location of the body a condition of considering parole. That's going to be a long time though, what a shame for her poor parents.

 

[anglolawyer]

Inveraray is scheduled to be under rather a lot of cold fluffy white stuff by Saturday morning. Better wait for the thaw.

I expect once the SCCRC refuse him leave to appeal (which I think they will) and he comes up towards the point where he might be looking at parole, they might make fessing up to the location of the body a condition of considering parole. That's going to be a long time though, what a shame for her poor parents.

What a shame! I was looking forward to putting ISF on the map once and for all. Maybe we have some clairvoyants who could locate her?

Btw. I am just re-reading the judgment and its stinks to high heaven that he was not treated as a suspect. Still as his statements don't seem to hurt his case, what's the big deal? He elected not to give evidence at his trial. Not sure whether that is mentioned anywhere.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm a little curious as to what the police did to try to find her. It was summer, so people would be around and it would be light about 20 hours a day. On the other hand, vegetation grows fast. Asking about purchases of gardening tools. Checking CCTV footage of big garden centres for someone checking out a spade. Someone buying a map. Asking people working in the area to look out for signs of car tyres where there shouldn't be any. If does sound as if he nearly came to grief with his car. What about his clothes, were they too late to rescue anything from the washing machine? Probably. I wonder what his wife had to say about his behaviour over these few days?

I agree he should probably have been cautioned earlier than he was. Carloway is trying to fudge that in my opinion. Maybe that's what the new appeal to SCCRC is all about. Well going by what I've heard, it's going to take more than a technicality of when the accused was cautioned to get them to make a referral. They've actually got to be convinced that there's a realistic chance of the appeal succeeding, and that it's in the public interest for the appeal to go ahead (that "certainty and finality" thing).

Yes, the appeal judgement did note that he relied on the statements he gave to the police rather than give evidence in his own trial. As Carloway said, without these statements, unless he'd given evidence, he'd have had no defence other than the presumption of innocence.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm a little curious as to what the police did to try to find her. It was summer, so people would be around and it would be light about 20 hours a day. On the other hand, vegetation grows fast. Asking about purchases of gardening tools. Checking CCTV footage of big garden centres for someone checking out a spade. Someone buying a map. Asking people working in the area to look out for signs of car tyres where there shouldn't be any. If does sound as if he nearly came to grief with his car. What about his clothes, were they too late to rescue anything from the washing machine? Probably. I wonder what his wife had to say about his behaviour over these few days?

I agree he should probably have been cautioned earlier than he was. Carloway is trying to fudge that in my opinion. Maybe that's what the new appeal to SCCRC is all about. Well going by what I've heard, it's going to take more than a technicality of when the accused was cautioned to get them to make a referral. They've actually got to be convinced that there's a realistic chance of the appeal succeeding, and that it's in the public interest for the appeal to go ahead (that "certainty and finality" thing).

Yes, the appeal judgement did note that he relied on the statements he gave to the police rather than give evidence in his own trial. As Carloway said, without these statements, unless he'd given evidence, he'd have had no defence other than the presumption of innocence.

I guess he might have popped a spade in the boot when returning home on the morning of 4th May to bring his car to the office. It says he was unable to park his car underground, which means he had to park it in Thistle Street. That must mean he lugged her body outside into the street and put it in the car in broad daylight. Wow.

Maybe he didn't bury her, but just concealed her under a log and left nature to do the rest. I have never tried but I imagine digging a deep grave is pretty hard and time-consuming work. He had just two hours including driving off the road and returning to it. Give him an hour and a half of pure digging. Is that enough?

 

[anglolawyer]

4 hours to do a decent job

 

[Rolfe]

I wasn't thinking he would go so deep as a proper grave in a cemetery. On the other hand he wouldn't be practised at the job, and in wild country he'd have to contend with stones, boulders and vegetation roots.

If he just concealed the body and got lucky, then there will be bones. That area is not wilderness. It's commercial forestry, or hill sheep farm. I presume he'd go for the forest part, to remain under cover. When they finally harvest these trees, I wonder what they'll find?

Since it must all have been improvisation and thinking on his feet, I'm surprised he made as good a job of concealment as he did. Decent piece of police work.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I guess he might have popped a spade in the boot when returning home on the morning of 4th May to bring his car to the office. It says he was unable to park his car underground, which means he had to park it in Thistle Street. That must mean he lugged her body outside into the street and put it in the car in broad daylight. Wow.

Maybe he didn't bury her, but just concealed her under a log and left nature to do the rest. I have never tried but I imagine digging a deep grave is pretty hard and time-consuming work. He had just two hours including driving off the road and returning to it. Give him an hour and a half of pure digging. Is that enough?

I've done a fair amount of digging (Not for body disposal purposes I hasten to add..) and it's nowhere near enough, also Scottish forests are poor places to dig, there are tree roots everywhere and the soil isn't very deep. He'd have needed a pick and shovel and to have been fairly practiced at digging to achieve a decent grave in any time.

I'd tend to agree with you that he concealed her in undergrowth, but it's kind of surprising that no foxes or dogs have dragged bones out into the open.

 

[Rolfe]

Remember the way he totalled the suspension on his car. He's been somewhere fairly inaccessible. Carrion eaters probably have dragged bits into the open and left bones lying, but someone has to find them. They don't exactly comb these woodlands on a daily basis.

And then again, if I saw the odd bone in a place like that, I'd probably assume it was a deer or a sheep without looking too closely. If the skull itself wasn't seen, the whole thing could look relatively natural.

Then again, were I in the place of Lothian and Borders' finest, I'd have had a word with all the shepherds and forestry men around there, about what to keep their eyes peeled for.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Remember the way he totalled the suspension on his car. He's been somewhere fairly inaccessible. Carrion eaters probably have dragged bits into the open and left bones lying, but someone has to find them. They don't exactly comb these woodlands on a daily basis.

And then again, if I saw the odd bone in a place like that, I'd probably assume it was a deer or a sheep without looking too closely. If the skull itself wasn't seen, the whole thing could look relatively natural.

Then again, were I in the place of Lothian and Borders' finest, I'd have had a word with all the shepherds and forestry men around there, about what to keep their eyes peeled for.

Actually, I disagree with that, he'd been somewhere with a forestry track to it, which means forestry workers would go there at least once a year (If they went less often it would become truly inaccessible, due to overgrowth). He can't have carried her too far off the track, so I think he's just been extremely lucky.

 

[Rolfe]

He wouldn't have smashed his suspension on a forestry track though. I think he's gone up a forestry track (God alone knows which one, there are dozens) and then gone some way off the track. People will go there, but they won't be covering every inch of the ground.

But I agree, he was lucky in that respect. I think, given the impulsive nature and the location of the murder, that he gave himself an impossible task. Concealing the body successfully took planning plus luck, but he simply couldn't avoid there being sufficient clues to point to him.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, I don't see why we shouldnt have a stab at finding it. Little bit of lateral thinking ought to do it. We're only up against Plod for goodness sake.

ETA unfortunately, if he didn't do any digging then that gives more time for lugging the body cross country once the car can't go any further, which widens the search area. If she's at the bottom of a loch, forget it but that's a very difficult thing to do (unless you know my secret method, which takes preparation anyway)

 

[Rolfe]

We're up against nearly five years, and a good few square miles of unfettered mother nature!

I think she will turn up, but I think it would actually have been fairly good luck if she'd turned up quickly, given the nature of the terrain.

 

[anglolawyer]

We're up against nearly five years, and a good few square miles of unfettered mother nature!

I think she will turn up, but I think it would actually have been fairly good luck if she'd turned up quickly, given the nature of the terrain.

Let's have no defeatism. This is the ISF. We can basically do anything.

 

[Rolfe]

Out of curiosity, if you were tasked with finding her body, how would you set about it?

 

[anglolawyer]

Out of curiosity, if you were tasked with finding her body, how would you set about it?

Great question. I would drive the route in a car like his and try to put myself in his shoes, interview his parents about childhood holidays, consult local foresters, shepherds, gamekeepers, ramblers etc and analyse the plant material under his car to see if there was anything distinctive about it. I would also try to get to know him and/or his cell mates to see what could be gleaned that way. I would post in a thread at ISF to consult the knowledge pool. Can't think of anything else just now. You?