Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

{Referring to Mach}



We are in agreement that the square rectangle stain marks the hilt (handle) of the knife. Only Mach is misstating the evidence by his BS mock-up, ignoring empirical knowledge (how images are made by, for example, letter-press or block print).

I went so far as to do some experiments on a kitchen knife coated with watered-down spaghetti sauce (a blood substitute in this experiment). Here's a photo from the experiment; the handle is on the left, the cutting edge of the blade to the top. The handle (part toward blade) is more in contact with the paper towel under the knife, and creates a rectangular stain. There's a gap in the stain between the handle and the blade, because the contact points are, in the ideal limits, the tip of the blade and the handle section nearest the blade. The stain is larger because of the low viscosity of the watered spaghetti; it flows. And the blade may bend to a degree.

[qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/6858954c79d96a8dae.jpg[/qimg][/qimg]

Might be better to use this stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r5roAI1FXQ

 

[Bill Williams]

It is absolutely false.
As Nencini also notes.

The balcony is visible from the road only from a 35-meter distance, but it is completely at the side, off from headlights direction and in the darkness.

Moreover, a human being on the balcony would not appear suspicious.

All true break-ins were from the balcony.



Filomena's room is indeed only five meters from S. Antonio road right above; almost in the direction of headlights from cars at the parking crossroad, directly under the lamp lights and well visible from the parking lot and from the crossroad.

In fact, statistics say burglars basically always choose entrances that have a surface below them at the same ground level, that is either entrance doors and windows at ground floor, or windows with balconies.

Presumably you have night time photos which prove all of this? Because the daytime pictures I've seen show angles which back up my assertion. Would love to see some night time pictures with all the street lights etc on.

When did the balcony break ins happen? Do you have evidence for them? Filomena's window was fitted with bars after the murder, which seems excessive for a window which only Superman (or was it Spiderman? I forget) could access.

The above is one of Machiavelli's many fraudulisms.

This is also round 5 in my time at this, of this particular game of whack-a-mole. The "the balcony is a logical point of entry for a burglar" meme. Apparently, this will never end.

Last time we went wrong this with Machiavelli, the view from the road, directly at the balcony was shown. And interestingly enough, there was a street light on the road that presumably provided full illumination on the balcony.

However, part of Machiavelli's fraudulism about this, is the pro-guilt lobby contention that the climb in through Filomena's window is impossible anyway. The rhetorical escape route from that claim, once debunked, is that a burglar would go the easier route, namely default to the balcony.

Then one has to consider that the side of the building Filomena's window is on is completely in the dark - including the area on the ground under her window which is completely shielded from the wall, behind the retaining wall. That are is completely dark, offering cover to the experienced burglar Rudy Guede is.....

....... so experienced, assets Judge Nencini in the latest conviction of AK and RS, that no self-respecting professional like Rudy would do anything other than go in through the front door! Lock or no lock.

There is no end to the fraudulisms needed to sustain a posture of guilt towards AK and RS. The "the balcony is the only logical point of entry for a burglar" meme has been around the merry-go-round 5 times since I've followed this.

If AK and RS are so obviously guilty, why do folk like Machiavelli need to manufacture new evidence, a full 7 years after?

 

[Desert Fox]

The above is one of Machiavelli's many fraudulisms.

This is also round 5 in my time at this, of this particular game of whack-a-mole. The "the balcony is a logical point of entry for a burglar" meme. Apparently, this will never end.

Last time we went wrong this with Machiavelli, the view from the road, directly at the balcony was shown. And interestingly enough, there was a street light on the road that presumably provided full illumination on the balcony.

However, part of Machiavelli's fraudulism about this, is the pro-guilt lobby contention that the climb in through Filomena's window is impossible anyway. The rhetorical escape route from that claim, once debunked, is that a burglar would go the easier route, namely default to the balcony.

Then one has to consider that the side of the building Filomena's window is on is completely in the dark - including the area on the ground under her window which is completely shielded from the wall, behind the retaining wall. That are is completely dark, offering cover to the experienced burglar Rudy Guede is.....

....... so experienced, assets Judge Nencini in the latest conviction of AK and RS, that no self-respecting professional like Rudy would do anything other than go in through the front door! Lock or no lock.

There is no end to the fraudulisms needed to sustain a posture of guilt towards AK and RS. The "the balcony is the only logical point of entry for a burglar" meme has been around the merry-go-round 5 times since I've followed this.

If AK and RS are so obviously guilty, why do folk like Machiavelli need to manufacture new evidence, a full 7 years after?

Iff you think they are guilty, fine, but be honest. If your case is weak in areas, admit that. Part of the problem I have with Machiavellian's stance is that he/she will not admit to being weak in any way.

 

[Diocletus]

Actually, with the Qubit for quantification, she couldn't tell: "too low" apparently could be zero DNA, but she might test it anyway. The contamination might enter the sample as it was being concentrated using a vacuum pump. (Please correct this statement if it's not accurate.)

She profiled everything that was "quantified" via Qubit. In effect, the only thing the Qubit was used for was i) to tell whether the sample should be diluted before amplification, and ii) (maybe) to tell whether the sample should be concentrated before amplification.

The Qubit was not used to weed out any no/low-quantity samples. Thus, she was amplifying samples without knowing whether they had DNA in them. There are a lot (e.g., 90% of plate 365bis) of no/low DNA profiles that have been suppressed for the period in which the Qubit was in use. But we do have 36b.

 

[anglolawyer]

The May Inquiry "stopped short of alleging a deliberate conspiracy to mislead the court", but it was pretty damn clear that at some point the scientists had lost objectivity and were actively trawling their results for data points to support the police case.

Only recently someone here quoted Hellman as saying he either had to acquit amanda of calumny or accuse the police of lying (so *********** what!) A refreshing aspect of the Pistorius and Dewani cases was the complete absence of any sense of the SA judiciary circling the wagons around the police.

 

[Bill Williams]

Iff you think they are guilty, fine, but be honest. If your case is weak in areas, admit that. Part of the problem I have with Machiavellian's stance is that he/she will not admit to being weak in any way.

Machiavelli's manufacture of a knife on a bedsheet, and claiming compatibility with his theory is not weak....

..... it is fraudulant.

I have a theory - a weak one, and it is perhaps even a conspiracy theory. I think the reason why the bedsheet-stain/kitchen-knife equivalence is being touted to begin with, begins with what Prosecutor Crini figured out:

The RIS Carabinieri report to the Nencini court removes the kitchen-knife, formerly known as the double-DNA knife, from the corpus of evidence. The finding by the RIS Carabinieri that sample 36I belongs to Amanda Knox pretty much crashes that knife as the murder weapon.

I think the RIS Carabinieri have also read the Conti-Vecchitotti report. Debunked or not by the March 2013 Cassazione reversal of Hellmann's acquittals.... the RIS Carabinieri personnel who handle the investigation into Sample 36I can read, and perhaps can even parse science if need be.

I think Prosecutor Crini knew that the kitchen knife was about to disappear, so needed something else to tie it to the murder room: and the bedsheet stain was all that was left.

Was is telling is that Crini only asserted this: in grand "judicial truth" fashion, that if a prosecutor can assert it, then it now becomes the defences' job to prove him wrong (rather than have him prove it as fact first).

Even the Crini prosecutor didn't order a photoshopped equivalence produced and entered into evidence into court. Apparently, actually entering fraudulent evidence into a court-of-law is still a crime in Italy..... I think. So it's best to just assert it, and hope the judge believes you, because like 4 years' previous Massei believed Stefanonie "just because".

So the task falls to an essentially anonymous internet poster to reveal the photoshopped counter to what the RIS Carabinieri knew - that the kitchen knife had nothing to do with the crime.

That's my conspiracy theory for the morning. If even remotely true, then who knows the back-room stuff - let's just hope someone from Section 5 of Cassazione has had a private lunch with someone from the RIS Carabinieri....

 

[Rolfe]

Only recently someone here quoted Hellman as saying he either had to acquit amanda of calumny or accuse the police of lying (so *********** what!) A refreshing aspect of the Pistorius and Dewani cases was the complete absence of any sense of the SA judiciary circling the wagons around the police.

Well, y'know, he could have acquitted her on the grounds of not proven, as it were. Since there was no record of the interview, he couldn't adjudicate on which party was lying.

But otherwise, yes, the spirit of Lord Denning is alive and well.

 

[Dan O.]

If this statement is true then my post 2899 should be addressed (by anyone who believes the break in was staged).

Machiavelli appears to be making up new "truths" these days. As if his old "pack of truths" we're no longer good enough.

We have the testimony of Filomena recounting the phone call from Amanda on the morning of the second where it is Filomena that tells Amanda where Laura is. While Amanda knew that Filomena was going to a party on the first, there is nothing to say Amanda would know when or if Filomena would be returning that night. As with the preceeding night, Filomena could choose at any time to stop by the cottage for a quick pizza snack with her boyfriend. And unless you believe Rudy's date story, Meredith herself had not advanced any plan to be back at the cottage by 2100. Amanda having spent the last several nights at Raffaele's place would be the least informed of the roomates as to the others normal evening routine.

 

[Dan O.]

The balcony is of course a perfectly fine entry point for a closed office building or a sealed crime scene. The key attribute is that the place is known in advance to be empty. There is no threat that anyone inside is going to hear a noise or chance looking out a window and spot the perpetrator in a location for which they have no cover and no easy escape.

Machiavelli must have been born to this case yesterday to not know this point from previous discussions here.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, y'know, he could have acquitted her on the grounds of not proven, as it were. Since there was no record of the interview, he couldn't adjudicate on which party was lying.

But otherwise, yes, the spirit of Lord Denning is alive and well.

I think he was hoping that the Italian Supreme Court would accept is as a compromise and just let it go away. Kind of like judges in the US will often accept returns to court where in order to achieve finality, the defendant is given "Time Served." The judge knows that the defendant is most likely innocent.

 

[Rolfe]

I think you're right. She'd still have gone after them in the ECHR for the calunnia thing even if the SC had upheld Helmann though.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think you're right. She'd still have gone after them in the ECHR for the calunnia thing even if the SC had upheld Helmann though.

Even so, if that was the only thing (potentially) being argued in front of the ECHR, it would have been far easier to come to a friendly resolution.

 

[Rolfe]

Very true.

 

[Methos]

[...]
When did the balcony break ins happen? Do you have evidence for them?
[...]

La Repubblica, Feb 18th, 2009: Meredith, incursione nella casa del delitto per terra coltelli e una candela, forse un rito

Gli investigatori hanno accertato che per entrare nella casa è stato sfondato il vetro di una finestra sulla terrazza del retro, che dà sulla cucina. Una finestra che non è visibile dalla strada.

La Repubblica, Mar 21st, 2009: Perugia, giallo nella casa del delitto Rubato il materasso e i coltelli di Meredith

 

[Numbers]

{Referring to Mach}



We are in agreement that the square rectangle stain marks the hilt (handle) of the knife. Only Mach is misstating the evidence by his BS mock-up, ignoring empirical knowledge (how images are made by, for example, letter-press or block print).

I went so far as to do some experiments on a kitchen knife coated with watered-down spaghetti sauce (a blood substitute in this experiment). Here's a photo from the experiment; the handle is on the left, the cutting edge of the blade to the top. The handle (part toward blade) is more in contact with the paper towel under the knife, and creates a rectangular stain. There's a gap in the stain between the handle and the blade, because the contact points are, in the ideal limits, the tip of the blade and the handle section nearest the blade. The stain is larger because of the low viscosity of the watered spaghetti; it flows. And the blade may bend to a degree.

[qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/6858954c79d96a8dae.jpg[/qimg][/qimg]

BTW, the funny swelling by the end of the knife handle on the same side as the knife blade cutting edge is a real feature of the handle. It has a shape to accommodate one's grip.

This knife has been used in secret-society lunch and dinner rituals performed on, for example, tomatoes.

 

[Numbers]

Hiding in the Electronic Data Files. If these were seen, it would be understand she ran a dirty lab, with enough contamination to, with a little fiddling, find Meredith Kercher's LCN DNA on the knife blade, and what seems to be Raffaele Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp (along with 3 or 4 other gents').

My English teachers would be horrified by my statement. It should read:

If these were seen, it would be understood she ran a dirty lab,....

But this statement should be repeated not merely to please the grammar police. Thus, the emphasis is new.

 

[Bill Williams]

My English teachers would be horrified by my statement. It should read:

If these were seen, it would be understood she ran a dirty lab,....

But this statement should be repeated not merely to please the grammar police. Thus, the emphasis is new.

So.... of the two, mutually exclusive conspiracies, one of which we're supposed to believe.....

1) Stefanoni ran a dirty lab, which confirmed Mignini's compatibilities, which the ISC over-ruled Hellmann over, lest all DNA evidence since 1986 in Italy be now suspect, or:

2) A mid-level Seattle PR firm has hoodwinked the North American media with deep pockets and a large measure of Masonic help; and Perugian Appeal's Court President Wladimiro De Nunzio and Perugian Appeals Judge Hellmann are criminals, and have been paid off by American media interests, with money funnelled through Masonic sources:​

Which do you believe?

 

[Numbers]

So.... of the two, mutually exclusive conspiracies, one of which we're supposed to believe.....

1) Stefanoni ran a dirty lab, which confirmed Mignini's compatibilities, which the ISC over-ruled Hellmann over, lest all DNA evidence since 1986 in Italy be now suspect, or:

2) A mid-level Seattle PR firm has hoodwinked the North American media with deep pockets and a large measure of Masonic help; and Perugian Appeal's Court President Wladimiro De Nunzio and Perugian Appeals Judge Hellmann are criminals, and have been paid off by American media interests, with money funnelled through Masonic sources:​

Which do you believe?

There is evidence on the first theory. It is a reality.

The second theory is not true, based on comments from my ritual tomatoes.

 

[Numbers]

I think you're right. She'd still have gone after them in the ECHR for the calunnia thing even if the SC had upheld Helmann though.

I suspect it was Hellmann's intent in convicting her of calunnia to give her a chance to go to ECHR before the main case was finalized (if the CSC annulled his court's acquittal). The CSC in their eagerness to convict her of something fell into his trap.

Hellmann out-maneuvered the authoritarians. That may be one reason guilters disparage Hellmann.

ETA: Since Hellmann's reasoning in his motivation report is self-contradictory regarding the calunnia (he presents reasons why she made the statements against her will, in an interrogation without a lawyer although she was suspected of very serious crimes, but then has some BS why it was willful on her part), the calunnia conviction is fated to be considered a violation by Italy of Convention Article 6 before the ECHR. I see no way out for Italy on that.

 

[platonov]

Just like old times

This reminds me a wee bit of the lab tests that were used to frame the Maguire Seven. Samples were taken from under the suspects' finger nails, and from their hands, and tested for explosives. The lab said it had generated positive results, but the reaction was later found to have been due to some sort of coating on playing cards they had been using to while away the time on a train journey.
One of the major problems identified by the subsequent public inquiry was that only selected results had been made available to the court. When the inquiry (conducted by Sir John May) asked for raw data to try to figure out what had been going on, the lab supplied only photocopies of selected pages of the lab notebooks (this was pre-computer). Only when May specifically requested the complete books to be turned over was that done, and in that he found all sorts of undeclared results that showed the scientists were basically at it.

After that, the lab switched from using bound laboratory notebooks to loose-leaf sheets torn off a pre-printed pad. I wonder why they did that? That's a whole other can of worms though.

Hmm. No that was the Birmingham 6.*
You appear to know as much about those cases [slightly famous MoJ’s in the UK I believe] as you do about the Perugia three.


* And no - they aren't the last 6 white men in Muslim Birmingham.