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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Here is a new article which may help with the broader creation evolution discussion, though it is not willdly scientific.

http://phys.org/news/2015-01-explores-universe-morality.html

Relevance to this thread:

In particular, they will likely agree with us that there is something morally special about rational, social creatures.

The guilters generally, and the Kercher family in particular score an epic fail here. It is immoral and irrational to persecute innocent people when a completely rational explanation that exculpates them has been exhaustively delivered.

I actually was thinking of the case of the Norfolk Four where the family and husband of Michelle Moore Bosko still believe they murdered the girl.

As well, you can look at how Linda LeBrane keyed in on Sarah Pearce even though her initial description was different and her first line up did not identify her.
 
{Highlighting added to quote.}

Whose issue?

Italian law considers a false statement presented to a judicial authority as a result of threat or violence an illegal act: CP 377-bis.

Italian law requires that a suspect under interrogation have a lawyer (IIUC - don't know the CPP). Amanda and Raffaele were both suspects. For example, in Honor Bound, Raffaele states he was ordered to empty his pockets during the interrogation. Would a witness be ordered to empty his pockets, or a suspect?

And if you look at ECHR case-law, suspects (and pretend witnesses) must be provided lawyers from the first interrogation, unless there are compelling reasons not to provide a lawyer (example of compelling reason: safety interview of a presumed terrorist about location of explosives).

Italian human rights law, according to the Convention, is the stronger (more protective of human rights) of its domestic law or the ECHR case-law. (Convention Art. 17, Art. 53)

{Highllighting added to quote.}

CPP 63 covers the requirement that a person under questioning who makes an incriminating statement requires the opportunity to have a lawyer.

Source: http://www.legislationline.org/documents/section/criminal-codes

Art. 63. Dichiarazioni indizianti.
1. Se davanti all'autorità giudiziaria o alla polizia
giudiziaria una persona non imputata ovvero una
persona non sottoposta alle indagini rende
dichiarazioni dalle quali emergono indizi di reità a suo
carico, l'autorità procedente ne interrompe l'esame,
avvertendola che a seguito di tali dichiarazioni
potranno essere svolte indagini nei suoi confronti e la
invita a nominare un difensore. Le precedenti
dichiarazioni non possono essere utilizzate contro la
persona che le ha rese.
2. Se la persona doveva essere sentita sin dall'inizio in
qualità di imputato o di persona sottoposta alle
indagini, le sue dichiarazioni non possono essere
utilizzate.

Google Translate to English:

Art. 63. Declarations indizianti.
1. If in the courts and the police
a legal person or an imputed
person under investigation makes
statements which disclose evidence of guilt in his
load, the investigating authority shall aborts its examination,
warning her that as a result of such statements
may be carried out investigations against him and
invites you to appoint a defender. the preceding
statements can not be used against
person who made them
.
2. If the person had to be felt from the outset
as a defendant or person under
investigations, his statements can not be
used
.

ETA: Merely another Italian law violated by the police and prosecutor.
 
More Italian Law that was Violated. CPP 64

Art. 64. Regole generali per l'interrogatorio.
1. La persona sottoposta alle indagini, anche se in
stato di custodia cautelare o se detenuta per altra
causa, interviene libera all'interrogatorio, salve le
cautele necessarie per prevenire il pericolo di fuga o di
violenze.
2. Non possono essere utilizzati, neppure con il
consenso della persona interrogata, metodi o tecniche
idonei a influire sulla libertà di autodeterminazione o
ad alterare la capacità di ricordare e di valutare i fatti .
3. Prima che abbia inizio l'interrogatorio, la persona
deve essere avvertita che:
a) le sue dichiarazioni potranno sempre essere
utilizzate nei suoi confronti;
b) salvo quanto disposto dall'articolo 66, comma 1, ha
facoltà di non rispondere ad alcuna domanda, ma
comunque il procedimento seguirà il suo corso;
c) se renderà dichiarazioni su fatti che concernono la
responsabilità di altri, assumerà, in ordine a tali fatti,
l'ufficio di testimone, salve le incompatibilità previste
dall'articolo 197 e le garanzie di cui all'articolo 197-bis.
3-bis. L'inosservanza delle disposizioni di cui al comma
3, lettere a) e b), rende inutilizzabili le dichiarazioni
rese dalla persona interrogata. In mancanza
dell'avvertimento di cui al comma 3, lettera c), le
dichiarazioni eventualmente rese dalla persona
interrogata su fatti che concernono la responsabilità di
altri non sono utilizzabili nei loro confronti e la
persona interrogata non potrà assumere, in ordine a
detti fatti, l'ufficio di testimone.

Google Translate to English

Art. 64. General rules for interrogation.
1. The person under investigation, although in
remanded in custody or detained for another
Because, intervenes free interrogation, prejudice
precautions necessary to prevent the danger of flight or
violence.
2. May not be used, even with the
consent of the person interrogated, methods or techniques
likely to affect the freedom of self-determination or
to affect the ability to remember and to assess the facts.

3. Before you begin the questioning, the person
should be warned that:
a) his statements will always be
used against him;
b) Subject to Article 66, paragraph 1, has
right not to answer any question, but
however, the process will follow its course;
c) if you make statements about facts concerning the
other responsibilities, will assume, in regard to these facts,
the office of witness, subject to the incompatibility provided
Article 197 and the guarantees of Article 197-bis.

3-bis. Failure to comply with the provisions of paragraph
3, a) and b), its use statements
made by the respondent. in the absence
the warning referred to in paragraph 3, letter c), the
any statements made by the person
questioned on the facts concerning the responsibility of
others can not be used against them and
respondent can not assume, in order to
those facts, the office of witness.
 
I actually was thinking of the case of the Norfolk Four where the family and husband of Michelle Moore Bosko still believe they murdered the girl.

As well, you can look at how Linda LeBrane keyed in on Sarah Pearce even though her initial description was different and her first line up did not identify her.
The Linda LeBrayne documentary is indeed totally baffling. That woman is collecting $50 a week for eternity from the innocent Sarah Pearce.
I am interested in the design of a new justice system, where only people with scientific credentials can play a part in determining the involvement of alleged perpetrators. If you can offer a reason I am on the wrong track I will listen, I am trying to think of a path by which this would lead to Injustice.
For example, the staging of the break in, upon which the case depends, would be tossed from the case, leaving the dna to the contamination brigade.
 
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Guilter's dilemma - if the cops witnessed Raffaele throwing Knox under a bus......

Why then did the cops still regard her as only a "person informed of the facts" and not a suspect with rights?

No wonder Machiavelli invents a third category of, "someone strongly suspected."
 
The Linda LeBrayne documentary is indeed totally baffling. That woman is collecting $50 a week for eternity from the innocent Sarah Pearce.
I am interested in the design of a new justice system, where only people with scientific credentials can play a part in determining the involvement of alleged perpetrators. If you can offer a reason I am on the wrong track I will listen, I am trying to think of a path by which this would lead to Injustice.
For example, the staging of the break in, upon which the case depends, would be tossed from the case, leaving the dna to the contamination brigade.

At the very least, testing of samples should be double-blind, rather than suspect centred like this one. Esp. this one where they just keep testing until they get a reason other than, "too low."
 
The Linda LeBrayne documentary is indeed totally baffling. That woman is collecting $50 a week for eternity from the innocent Sarah Pearce.
I am interested in the design of a new justice system, where only people with scientific credentials can play a part in determining the involvement of alleged perpetrators. If you can offer a reason I am on the wrong track I will listen, I am trying to think of a path by which this would lead to Injustice.
For example, the staging of the break in, upon which the case depends, would be tossed from the case, leaving the dna to the contamination brigade.

At the very least, testing of samples should be double-blind, rather than suspect centred like this one. Esp. this one where they just keep testing until they get a reason other than, "too low."
 
At the very least, testing of samples should be double-blind, rather than suspect centred like this one. Esp. this one where they just keep testing until they get a reason other than, "too low."
All sorts of ideas come to mind.
Question:
Is there a citation for anyone with scientific or engineering credentials testifying for the prosecution on the subject of the window vandalism/break in?
All miscarriages seem to be characterised by assumptions made by the police judiciary and prosecution. We had the case in NZ recently where the police brought a shotgun to a trial, and science precluded the weapon from any possibility of being the murder weapon. Ewen MacDonald was acquitted after a vast waste of public money.
Just in NZ, there is Bain, Pora, Lundy*, Dougherty, Thomas, Ellis. Then Chamberlain and others in Australia. All the above are exonerated by science. And very basic motivational psychology I might add.

* Retrial begins shortly, very interesting, but unclear yet.
 
At the very least, testing of samples should be double-blind, rather than suspect centred like this one. Esp. this one where they just keep testing until they get a reason other than, "too low."

I think the idea of double blind testing is a very good idea.
 
The Linda LeBrayne documentary is indeed totally baffling. That woman is collecting $50 a week for eternity from the innocent Sarah Pearce.
I am interested in the design of a new justice system, where only people with scientific credentials can play a part in determining the involvement of alleged perpetrators. If you can offer a reason I am on the wrong track I will listen, I am trying to think of a path by which this would lead to Injustice.
For example, the staging of the break in, upon which the case depends, would be tossed from the case, leaving the dna to the contamination brigade.

There have been some fundraising for Sarah so she should have help with paying the money at least.
 
I think the idea of douBle blind testing is a very good idea.

If nothing else it puts the burden on the proper party. The Italian courts in this case seem to put the burden on the defence to prove it WAS suspect centred even in the absence of double-blind.
 
Guilter's dilemma - if the cops witnessed Raffaele throwing Knox under a bus......

Why then did the cops still regard her as only a "person informed of the facts" and not a suspect with rights?

No wonder Machiavelli invents a third category of, "someone strongly suspected."

Don't start again dirty tricks attempting to misquote other people's words. Nobody invents categories here.
 
If the Kercher family had accepted Hellmann and paid and sacked Maresca, would this case be live now? This is a question that some one may be able to answer, Machiavelli maybe.
It seems to me that if the Italian state would have backed off then, they are now doing to the Knox and Sollecito families what Guede did to their family.

The case for the annullment of Hallmann-Zanetti was brought to the Supreme Court by an act signed by the Prosecutor General of Umbria, Galati, and argued before the court by the Rome SC Prosecutor General Riello.
These are not folks who would depend on Maresca's opinion.
 
The case for the annullment of Hallmann-Zanetti was brought to the Supreme Court by an act signed by the Prosecutor General of Umbria, Galati, and argued before the court by the Rome SC Prosecutor General Riello.
These are not folks who would depend on Maresca's opinion.
But the Kercher's instructed Maresca to appeal Hellmann immediately he acquitted. You are suggesting this has no bearing on the willingness of the judiciary to persevere?
 
But the Kercher's instructed Maresca to appeal Hellmann immediately he acquitted. You are suggesting this has no bearing on the willingness of the judiciary to persevere?

I actually think that Machiavellian is right. . . . .They don't care too much about the family but the judiciary is concerned about the egg in the face.
 
Yes, there was a small drop of Amanda's blood on the faucet, and there is no way of knowing when it was deposited. When Amanda testified that the bathroom had been clean when she left the day of the murder, she didn't mean totally without any drops of any kind. A drop of a person's blood in a bathroom they use every day is not evidence of anything, unless you have a lot more to back it up (which they don't).

This is an argument showing the pro-defense bias. The drop on the faucet was very visible. One may claim that it was small, you may not notice when you enter the bathroom. It's true. But it's not a strong argument. Because when one use the bathroo, at a certain point they would wash their hands, use the water tap and put their hands under the water flow. During this movement, you would look at the water tap at a certain point. It's a very attention grabbing point, a focus of visual attention.

It is possible, in rerum natura, that a blood spot is left there for days unnoticed. But it is not likely. Not by both Amanda and Meredith, especially since Meredith was reported to have been particularly grossed by blood drops in the bathroom. That blood drop wouldn't remain in that visible spot for days after days. It's unrealistic.
But also, another relevant fact is that the blood spot is Knox's blood, not Merediths, and this not only makes it become suspicious and unjustified because of its dating, but also because of its unjustified origin: because Amanda Knox fails to explain its origin, so that you talk now about a blood stain the origin of which remains vague and unknown; but in fact since the blood is her, she must have know exactly its origin and day.

Then, do not forget the other multiple lies - that is inconsistent, non credible statements - by Amanda Knox that relate to that spot, in her account: first she thinks it is from her ear, then she deems the size of the bathmat stain "too large" to be from her and rules out the idea of being wounded without checking her body, and finally, as I just said above, this fact that she only refers to a vague and unknown origin, whereas realistically she must have known if she had been bleeding in the bathroom, because it'ts not something that goes unnoticed.

Yet, in rerum natura it is still possible for people to hypothesize that the drop may originate from any other day, that the remaining there of the blood was causal and that went unnoticed by Meredith for days by chance, and that vagueness forgetting on the part of Knox's memory is just mistakes.
All this is possible.
But it's not credible, not likely. It's weak.

The blood drop crossed with all these suspicious inconsistencies in statements and circumstances about it, and with the findings of other mixed traces of non diluted blood (cotton swab) and other suspicious mixed DNA traces, is indeed a piece of circumstantial evidence.
 
But the Kercher's instructed Maresca to appeal Hellmann immediately he acquitted. You are suggesting this has no bearing on the willingness of the judiciary to persevere?

I don't see how Maresca could have the power to influence the judiciary.
But, I see that also, it appears you don't realize how abhorrent and revolting the Hellmann-Zanetti sentence is under jurispprudence. How much it utterly offends principles of law, and also of truth and logic as a consequence.
 
In this case, however, Sollecito and Gumbel are co-authors of Honor Bound and jointly responsible for its contents. Among the plentiful lies included in the "memoir" is a detailed account of an illegal plea deal meeting involving the PM and Sollecito's lawyers.

All Sollecito needs to do is to produce evidence of this meeting and the whole case against the pair vanishes.

You could do something constructive for the convicted murderer by urging him to publicly distance himself from the claims as both his father and at least one of his lawyers already has. Instead, you're nitpicking about the alleged unfairness of the law itself. Italy is hardly the only constituency where defamation carries steep penalties. Here in Canada we have similar laws affecting even established professional journalists such as Ezra Levant. There is also a reason that the other book, soon to be the subject of legal action, wasn't released in the UK as planned.

None of this should have to be explained there is a surfeit of self-proclaimed legal experts at the ISF to guide you. Ask one of them.

Regarding sources: they're all in the Italian media as the US media is peculiarly uninterested in anything regarding Meredith's murder apart from what they're fed by the influential PR campaign financed by the family of one of the killers.

It's correct, in fact the book is basically a false report. If Sollecito was able to bring witnesses about his claims, and if he didn't have some obvious evidence that belies his false reports (such as the actual transcript of misreported Mignini's words at Quarto Grado interview, or Mignini's words to Bob Graham, etc) he could be on the winning side. He can't, thus he will be convicted for defamation and will have to pay damages.
 
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How come the publisher wasn't also included in this suit?

Also, you would think those who run this PR campaign (Marriott, for example) would also be included in some kind of defamation lawsuit. Maybe the reason that hasn't happened is because there is no PR campaign and it's all just a conspiracy theory cooked up by some of the probably guilty crowd to make fun of the probably innocent crowd's alleged conspiracy theory about the Italian judiciary, but that's just my opinion,

d

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A publishing company cannot be sued for criminal defamation, only individuals can. However Mignini's lawsuit was an "open complaint", meaning that included possible unknown editors and staff who contributed to the book content.
 
It's correct, in fact the book is basically a false report. If Sollecito was able to bring witnesses about his claims, and if he didn't have some obvious evidence that belies his false reports (such as the actual transcript of misreported Mignini's words at Quarto Grado interview, or Mignini's words to Bob Graham, etc) he could be on the winning side. He can't, thus he will be convicted for defamation and will have to pay damages.

He obviously has the tapes of the bob graham interview.
 
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