Near Death and Out of Body Experiences

No, what I have a problem with is accepting the research, thus far, as the complete explanation for NDE's when there are still questions about how the human brain functions.

There is no question whatsoever from what I can see that the function of the brain is purely chemico-physical.

There are question in the details of the process, but all evidence we found point to a pure physico chemical process. All of them.

Your objection is therefore void.
 
Why in the world would that be? Human neuron interaction is electro-chemical, with the exact type and amount of chemical being very important to the way the next neuron perceives the input. In all, scientists have discovered 30 to 100 types of neurotransmitters.

Computers, on the other hand, are electrical. There is no chemical connection needed, let alone dozens of different chemicals.

How on earth could one be compared to the other?

It seems that there are a few research projects out there investigating this. They take the nuerons and cultivate them into a neural network onto a microchip.
 
There is no question whatsoever from what I can see that the function of the brain is purely chemico-physical.

There are question in the details of the process, but all evidence we found point to a pure physico chemical process. All of them.

Your objection is therefore void.

Not really, because if the person is brain dead then none of this should happen, period, whether it's a chemical or an electrical process. As you say, we don't completely understand the process, or the timing of the events that are remembered. There are questions about redefining death medically and legally, maybe what we term brain dead isn't as dead as we think it is. Until then, we can't discount the experience based on a simple explanation like hypoxia.
 
Last edited:
Not really, because if the person is brain dead then none of this should happen, period, whether it's a chemical or an electrical process. As you say, we don't completely understand the process, or the timing of the events that are remembered. There are questions about redefining death medically and legally, maybe what we term brain dead isn't as dead as we think it is. Until then, we can't discount the experience based on a simple explanation like hypoxia.
As far as I know, truly brain dead people don't have near death experiences that they come back to talk about: they have full dead experiences and stay that way. Are you confusing people legally defined as brain dead with people having very low brain activity or in comas?
 
It seems that there are a few research projects out there investigating this. They take the nuerons and cultivate them into a neural network onto a microchip.

I don't think this means what you intend it to mean. Yes, electronics are used to detect the flow of ions that comprise biological neural actions. But the physical processes by which the signals are transmitted are very different in electronics versus nerves.
 
No, what I have a problem with is accepting the research, thus far, as the complete explanation for NDE's when there are still questions about how the human brain functions.

There are also some major questions about how gravity functions. Should we ignore all of what we do know until we have it all figured out?
 
I am a cognitive neuroscientist - though not a computer modeller (though I've worked with a few). However, I know enough to state the following as being a fair and accurate account relevant to that discussed above.

I can confirm that computer models of brain processes are mot regarded, by anyone I know of, as literal incarnations of the human brain. They are approximations - how close, is still a matter of debate. It is a form of comparative psychology - where it is just thought of as an approximation. Now there are many different approaches to using such methods including connectionism, neural modelling, AI, etc - they are not all the same. However, the principle is the same - they are trying to examine the principle components of how groups of neurons "might" be processing information and that includes; encoding, transforming, representing and retrieving data. The models have merit - but are limited.

There is an excellent issue of the journal "Cognition" - a special issue from the 1980s I think on connectionism with lots of big thinkers writing on the role and contribution of connectionist models in psychology. Even though dated, I highly recommend it as the debate captured in it is still relevant. The basic take home message is that such models are at their best when trying to account for very basic early sensory processing and not high-level cognition. So basic visual / language processing is an area where many models do a reasonable job of providing a candidate explanation - but only for very basic things (edge detection, early attentional selection, shading, orientation, early integration).

There are computational models of hallucination - and in line with my earlier point - these are mainly for early and basic processes. So, Jack Cowan (Chicago) and Paul Bressloff (UK) have developed models based on the Euclidean geometry of the primary visual cortex and breaking symmetrical patterns (based on fluid dynamics) of excitation / inhibition (imagine ripples in a pond). However, the imagery produced by the model is basic and meant to simulate the low-level stage 1 hallucinations of drug use, migraine aura and epilepsy. There is nothing even mid-level, let alone high level about the experiences it is trying to model. In addition, the 'tunnel' experiences it produces are not in line with the tunnel experiences described by NDEers (though Sue Blackmore and Tom Troscianko have a basic model that does fit better with descriptions). None of these models require, need, or are based on hand-wavy ideas of quantum computing. No need, classical understandings at the macro level still need exploring and are likely to produce the best results.

It is true that few if any connectionist / computer model takes into account the complex interplay of neurotransmitters. But it's even worse than that. One the whole, they don't take into account ionic processes, enphatic transmission (non-synaptic) or the role of glial cells in communication. Some neurotransmitters are actually gases as well (like Nitric oxide), and some ions can move in waves (calcium waves), some inhibitory neurotransmitters actually become excitatory under seizure conditions, the state of the neuron membrane is in a constant state of flux, and so on. So basically, many 'principles' get bent in exotic situations like hallucinations - but they are understandable under classical notions of brain science. Again, no need to even contemplate quantum anything.

Before his death, Victor Stenger e-mailed me for some information on a talk he was giving on NDEs. I duly sent him my papers and asked him about what he thought of QM and the NDE. The answer was that the brain is too warm, and wet and the macro-level of neurotransmitters is too big for QM effects to exist on them. He was utterly unconvinced by it (though I appreciate this is an area of debate).

Much of the work on QM and computer models, when applied to brains, is simply theoretical with no direct evidential basis that I can see. Full of unwarranted assumptions like "...if we assume x, and then assume y and z, then.......magic happens.....". Well, hold on, why assume x, y, and z, in the first place and what happens if we don't make such unwarranted assumptions? ;)
 
Last edited:
Not really, because if the person is brain dead then none of this should happen, period, whether it's a chemical or an electrical process. As you say, we don't completely understand the process, or the timing of the events that are remembered. There are questions about redefining death medically and legally, maybe what we term brain dead isn't as dead as we think it is. Until then, we can't discount the experience based on a simple explanation like hypoxia.

Jodie, there has never been a documented NDE case, where the patient was declared brain dead, and this was evidenced by detailed recordings.

The NDE occurs, when the brain is very much alive and working. Please read the papers linked to a few posts ago. It will take some time to fully read and appreciate them - though please make the effort.
 
Jodie, there has never been a documented NDE case, where the patient was declared brain dead, and this was evidenced by detailed recordings.

The NDE occurs, when the brain is very much alive and working. Please read the papers linked to a few posts ago. It will take some time to fully read and appreciate them - though please make the effort.

And, even if someone was declared brain dead, and then recovered, and reported "memories" of a near death or an out of body experience, it does not prove that the experience took place during the period of brain death and not in the intervening period between being brain dead and recovering full consciousness.
 
And, even if someone was declared brain dead, and then recovered, and reported "memories" of a near death or an out of body experience, it does not prove that the experience took place during the period of brain death and not in the intervening period between being brain dead and recovering full consciousness.

Yes, I made that point a number of posts ago in the links to two papers (the dying brain and Occam's chainsaw) - where it is discussed at length. But yes, indeed.

I just wish the broader community discussing these issues were aware of these important observations. ;)

The evidence in one of those papers talks about syncopy as a comparative model. Where the hallucinations happen on recovery.
 
Yes, I made that point a number of posts ago in the links to two papers (the dying brain and Occam's chainsaw) - where it is discussed at length. But yes, indeed.

I just wish the broader community discussing these issues were aware of these important observations. ;)

The evidence in one of those papers talks about syncopy as a comparative model. Where the hallucinations happen on recovery.

You and I both agree. Me from a simple application of logic and you from your greater education, understanding and experience. ;)

Too bad there are so few of either of us. :w2:
 
Jodie, there has never been a documented NDE case, where the patient was declared brain dead, and this was evidenced by detailed recordings.

The NDE occurs, when the brain is very much alive and working. Please read the papers linked to a few posts ago. It will take some time to fully read and appreciate them - though please make the effort.
I think there is often confusion in anecdotal reports of 'death' or 'brain death', between the common term 'clinical death' (no breathing or circulation), a clinical diagnosis of death (a variety of tests invcluding reflex tests of brainstem activity), casual diagnosis of 'brain death' (e.g. no detectable signs of brain activity on EEG), and real, permanent death.

The significant difference being that the casual terms are guesswork; the diagnoses are clinical judgements that can be flawed - as demonstrated by patient recovery; and real death or brain death is terminal cessation of activity - so there can be no subsequent reports of any experience.

There may also be exaggerated play on these differences for melodramatic effect - a temporary flatline ECG or apnoea might be reported as, "The doctors told me I died on the operating table!" - to which an appropriate response is, "Really; were you buried or cremated?"
 
Not really, because if the person is brain dead then none of this should happen, period, whether it's a chemical or an electrical process.

Well, it doesn't. So there's that.

NDEs very distinctly occur while there is still brain activity. If the patient is brain dead, nothing is happening.

Because they're dead. In which case it isn't a near-death experience.
 
Regarding quantum woo, it seems to me that we can't rule out some macro-scale quantum effect participating in brain function, perhaps at a synaptic level; there's been a lot of recent interest in unexpected quantum effects in biology - such as the claimed optimization of electron transfer in photosynthesis, or the possible quantum entanglement involved in the magnetic sense of the European robin (both disputed).

However, as I understand it, at present there is no reason to suppose such quantum effects are involved, or that if they are, they might be more significant than simple biochemical optimizations (akin to more efficient enzymes). In evolutionary terms, self-aware consciousness seems to be a relatively recent development, and there hasn't been much time for the evolution of more complex effects, particularly given the fragility and rapid decoherence of quantum effects in a typical biological context.

ETA: regarding brain death and brain activity, it's worth noting that it is now possible to perform surgery while a patient is chilled (e.g. by replacing blood with chilled saline), slowing cell metabolism to a degree where circulation can be stopped for 45 minutes or more without tissue damage from anoxia. In these conditions, there is unlikely to be any neural signalling activity, detectable or otherwise, but the brain is still not dead.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I made that point a number of posts ago in the links to two papers (the dying brain and Occam's chainsaw) - where it is discussed at length. But yes, indeed.

I just wish the broader community discussing these issues were aware of these important observations. ;)

The evidence in one of those papers talks about syncopy as a comparative model. Where the hallucinations happen on recovery.

Dr B:

Is the "Occam's Chainsaw" article available to read without having to sign up for Academia.edu? I do not qualify to sign up, evidently...
 
Too many people think that quantum mechanics means anything can happen at any time, and that science is therefore useless. In fact, quantum mechanics is a branch of science, and very carefully explains what can happen and what cannot. Many of these quantum aspects become important only at very tiny scales (electrons, etc.), and are different from what we expect from observations at larger scale. Thus people cannot "tunnel" through walls at any realistic probability, but electrons can tunnel through certain forms of tiny junctions. The "uncertainty principle" refers primarily to an inability to accurately detect both a small particles position and momentum at the same time. It does not mean that "all bets are off" and everything is uncertain. The uncertainty principle also applies to the basic particles that make up baseballs, but the effect at the whole baseball scale is so very tiny that a batter can ignore it when trying to hit the ball.

I am certain that quantum mechanics must apply to biological systems at a tiny scale (absorption of a light photon by a rhodopsin molecule) as it applies to all physical things, but as in hitting a baseball, can probably be ignored when dealing with the bigger systems that comprise most of biology.
 

Back
Top Bottom