Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It is theoretically possible, but it is not realistic, if you consider the principles of ECHR. The ECHR acknowledgest that the right to counsel can suffer delays or limitation for cautionary reasons that depend on the need to pretect the effectivness of investigation, since the effectiveness of investigation is a public interest which has a need to be protected as well as human rights, and human rights are supposed to pay a price (be "partly sacrified") when they come into conflict with other rights.
It is not easy to establish a point of balance between conflicting rights. For example, it won't be easy to tell how long a delay to access counsel would be "reasonable" (48 hours is not 5 days - and Italian law allows up to 5 days). So not all "delays" are the same. But it is certalily easy to tell that the answer won't be completely slanted on one side, it's not going to be the absolute extension of the rights of an individual in detriment to the collective interest. If that was the case, even cautionary custody wouldn't exist; cautionary custody is a law by which a legally innocent person is kept in jail for cautionary reasons. The liberties of individuals are restricted for reasons of public interest.



It's not because it facilitated the prosecution, it's because there was a cautionary need to safeguard the investigation from a risk of being polluted.
Your reasoning about the five days is baseless: Mignini delayed the right to counsel until the investigating judge hearing, so that the defendants would have a chance to be examined by the investigating judge before their testimonies may get "polluted" by each other.
We are talking about three defendants who were arrested at the same time while they were in the process of accusing each other about an extremely serious crime, with Knox even attempting to communicate threatning messages ("blood on hands"): this was obviously the specific and exceptional circumstance.

The problem you seem to have is being able to identify by citation from the case law, support for your contention that the ECHR is going to recognise "compelling reasons" for the denial of counsel in the present case. I cannot confirm an exhaustive search of all the 115 or so post Salduz judgements handed down by the ECHR, but between us here we have considered a good many.

There really is "no point of balance", no "conflicting rights" - not in this case.

But that's not your major problem. Your major problem is finding any exception relevant to the present case where statements used from interrogations without the benefit of counsel have been permitted to support convictions. Or perhaps you think the ECHR will anyway conclude that the 5:45 statement was the product of a "not an interrogation" kind of interrogation and congratulate Mignini for his most proper work?

...and you do realise don't you, unlike Popper, that one Article 6 violation and this conviction and this sentence is history, toast, never happened, doesn't count...etc etc. Have you explained that to all your boys and girls? CSC decision no. 2800? You have seen it right?
 
First trial, part of the evidence tossed against him was a number of elicit affairs. He was quite a philander, I give them that. On appeal, overturned based on that evidence being prejudicial.

You mean illicit and philanderer.

Elicit
Generally, the verb elicit means to obtain. However, it has the connotation of actively obtaining something (usually information). It can often be translated as to draw out, to extract, to obtain information, to deduce, or to construe.

Illicit
The adjective illicit means illegal or contrary to accepted morality (i.e., naughty)
 
The problem you seem to have is being able to identify by citation from the case law, support for your contention that the ECHR is going to recognise "compelling reasons" for the denial of counsel in the present case. I cannot confirm an exhaustive search of all the 115 or so post Salduz judgements handed down by the ECHR, but between us here we have considered a good many.

There really is "no point of balance", no "conflicting rights" - not in this case.

But that's not your major problem. Your major problem is finding any exception relevant to the present case where statements used from interrogations without the benefit of counsel have been permitted to support convictions. Or perhaps you think the ECHR will anyway conclude that the 5:45 statement was the product of a "not an interrogation" kind of interrogation and congratulate Mignini for his most proper work?

...and you do realise don't you, unlike Popper, that one Article 6 violation and this conviction and this sentence is history, toast, never happened, doesn't count...etc etc. Have you explained that to all your boys and girls? CSC decision no. 2800? You have seen it right?

The ECHR is quite clear. The "compelling reasons" must be very strong, amounting to the equivalent of mass casualties due to, for example, terrorism. And since terrorist conspiracies may involve many people, there can legitimately be a concern about leaks hampering the investigation. This cannot be true for the Meredith Kercher murder, in which the police invented a theory of a conspiracy involving three persons: Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Patrick Lumumba, all of whom were at hand (either in the police station or at a known location in Perugia).

Another difference between Ibrahim and the current case is that the UK police had real evidence against at least the first three arrested persons prior to the start of the interviews. There was no such evidence before the "interviews" of Knox and Sollecito. In fact, there ever any reliable or credible evidence against Knox and Sollecito.

And the Italian judicial system eventually decided not to charge Lumumba, in part because he had a solid alibi, which a competent (should one write: non-Italian) police force would have investigated before going to the trouble and extreme violation of human rights in this judicial fiasco the police brought upon themselves and innocent persons.

From Ibrahim and others v the UK 50541/08 {emphasis added}:

198. The first question to be examined is whether there were compelling reasons to restrict the applicants’ access to legal advice in their early police interviews. The Court has no doubt that there were (compare and contrast Salduz, cited above, § 56; and, more generally, Panovits, cited above).

199. It is important to note, first, that the present case is different from the case of Salduz as the absence of a lawyer during the applicants’ initial police questioning did not result from the systemic application of a legal provision (see Şedal v. Turkey (dec.), no. 38802/08, § 33, 13 May 2014; compare Dayanan v. Turkey, no. 7377/03, § 33, 13 October 2009; and Çimen v. Turkey, no. 19582/02, § 26, 3 February 2009). Under the law in force in England, all of the applicants had the right to legal assistance upon arrest and the legal framework required that individual decisions be taken in each case as to when an arrest was to be made and whether, having regard to all of the circumstances, legal assistance was, exceptionally, to be delayed in order to enable “safety” interviews (see paragraph 17 above) to be carried out.

200. As the Government explained, the pressures and responsibilities of the police in the days after 21 July 2005 were substantial (see paragraph 162 above). Two weeks earlier, suicide bombers had detonated their bombs on the London transport system to devastating effect. The attacks had killed fifty-two people and injured countless more, and had temporarily disabled the entire London public transport system. When the first three applicants and Mr Osman detonated their devices two weeks later, the police had to work on the assumption that their conspiracy was an attempt to replicate the events of 7 July. At that stage, the police could not know why the bombs on 21 July had failed to explode and they had to assume that those responsible might attempt to detonate other bombs. The possibility of further loss of life on a large scale was no doubt foremost in their minds. The need to obtain, as a matter of critical urgency, information on any further planned attacks and the identities of those potentially involved in the plot, while ensuring that the integrity of the investigation was not compromised by leaks, was clearly of the most compelling nature.
 
The ECHR is quite clear. The "compelling reasons" must be very strong, amounting to the equivalent of mass casualties due to, for example, terrorism. And since terrorist conspiracies may involve many people, there can legitimately be a concern about leaks hampering the investigation. This cannot be true for the Meredith Kercher murder, in which the police invented a theory of a conspiracy involving three persons: Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Patrick Lumumba, all of whom were at hand (either in the police station or at a known location in Perugia).

Another difference between Ibrahim and the current case is that the UK police had real evidence against at least the first three arrested persons prior to the start of the interviews. There was no such evidence before the "interviews" of Knox and Sollecito. In fact, there ever any reliable or credible evidence against Knox and Sollecito.

And the Italian judicial system eventually decided not to charge Lumumba, in part because he had a solid alibi, which a competent (should one write: non-Italian) police force would have investigated before going to the trouble and extreme violation of human rights in this judicial fiasco the police brought upon themselves and innocent persons.
.......

One additional point. From the DNA profiling of the rape kit and other evidence, the Italian police should have known the DNA profile of the actual murderer/rapist in Meredith Kercher's murder and rape on or about November 6, 2007. By comparing that DNA profile with those of the suspects in the conspiracy invented by the police, the police would have known that none of the three individuals (Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba) were the actual murder/rapist.

The remaining police activity was to invent evidence by further misconduct to justify their original official misconduct. Thus, the unreliable and non-credible kitchen knife and its alleged Kercher LCN DNA (with no blood) on the blade (an obvious contamination or fraud), and later the bra-clasp, with its multiple male DNA profiles suggesting contamination.
 
Raffaele's timeline of events in the Questura, Nov 5/6, 2007. This highlights the "guilter dilemma" where neither of them are suspects until Knox "names Lumumba".

- 10 pm (Nov 5) while at a friend's for dinner (with Amanda) he gets a call to come into the Questura.
- 11 pm: now at the Questura, Raffaele's dad calls him, the last call R. got as a free man.
- in the interrogation room, Marco Chiacchiera and Daniele Moscatelli want to know why he came with Amanda.
- Napoleoni and others come in and out
- "You need to tell us what happened that night," was met with Raffaele saying, "Which night?"
- (Here Raffaele concedes that his memory of the events at interrogation could differ in order; yet he also points out that of all the things secretly taped - legally or otherwise - someone forgot to tape this most important of events, so it is a bit of a saw-off who is right!)
- Raffaele recounts that he and Amanda had gone out shopping, not something he'd said before.
- He was asked, "Did Amanda go out that night?" Unsure which day of the week Nov 1st had been, he asked to see a calendar.
- The demand was for an answer without the calendar, and Raffaele was unsure which night it was that Amanda had gone out to work.
- He then wrote, "I had the two days muddled in my head and couldn't sort them out. I offered both scenarios."
- He was told that he was getting himself into trouble by telling them different things.
- He said, "If it was Thursday, she probably went to work."
- They accused him of not knowing what happened.
- Napoleoni, then in the room, said, "You don't know what that cow, that whore, got up to."
- That was the first glimmer for him that they though Amanda could have been the murderer.
- Raffaele recounts that this was before Amanda was taken into her own interrogation room, so this is all before 11:30 pm Nov 5.
- Raffaele is asked to empty his pockets. The pocketknife is taken.
- Raffaele asks for a lawyer and is denied. He asks to call his father and is denied.
- After a flurry of coming and going, Raffaele is eventually alone with one officer who threatens to leave Raffaele, "in a pool of blood," if Raffaele tries to leave.
- Raffaele heard Amanda screaming from another room, "Aiuto! Aiuto!" "Help! Help!"
- Raffaele was told nothing was wrong, but he heard the cries three or four more times.
- Raffaele is asked to surrender his shoes.
- Raffaele is **still** being asked if Amanda went out that night (not saying which night), and is asked again why he is vouching for "that cow".
- He was asked to sign a statement prepared for him, which conflated Oct 31 with Nov 1 which he admits reflected his own confusion over the two dates.
- The statement had his father calling on Nov 1 at 11 pm, and Amanda going out but returning at 1 am.
- Raffaele signed the statement at 3:30 am Nov 6; although says in the book it was out of sheer exhaustion.
- Raffaele wanted the part changed that said, "In my last statement I told you a lot of crap," but the police insisted that it be included and that it didn't matter to his position.​

In the book, Raffaele then recounts Amanda's story, saying that by the time 3:30 am rolled around, Amanda had already cracked.

Maybe the pro-guilt lobby can come up with a timeline. The implication of this timeline presented by Raffaele, is that both of them were clearly suspects right from the git-go, thus the guilter dilemma.
 
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There really is "no point of balance", no "conflicting rights" - not in this case.

But that's not your major problem. Your major problem is finding any exception relevant to the present case where statements used from interrogations without the benefit of counsel have been permitted to support convictions. Or perhaps you think the ECHR will anyway conclude that the 5:45 statement was the product of a "not an interrogation" kind of interrogation and congratulate Mignini for his most proper work?

...and you do realise don't you, unlike Popper, that one Article 6 violation and this conviction and this sentence is history, toast, never happened, doesn't count...etc etc. Have you explained that to all your boys and girls? CSC decision no. 2800? You have seen it right?

You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.
 
You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.

Well yes Mach, generally to find some one guilty there should be at least some evidence that points to their guilt. And to convict, we still use the standard 'beyond reasonable doubt', I think its the same in Italy.

In this case, only one set of footprints in the victim's wet blood, and only traces of Rudy Guede, but no similar traces of anyone else in comparable or reliable quantity in the murder room, pretty much establishes only Rudy physically killed Meredith.

Now if you want to argue others were there, perhaps outside the room for example, at least that argument wouldn't conflict with the evidence from the murder room.

Except that Amanda and Raf never left Raf's apartment, as supported at least if not proven by their computer records that survived the police investigator's mishaps, and also by eye witnesses and phone calls. There is no credible evidence they ever left the apartment.

But perhaps you'd like to argue someone other than Amanda or Raf was guilty by standing outside the room when Rudy killed Meredith by himself? It seems wholly speculative though as far as I can tell.

But resorting to "science-denial" by suggesting the negative TMB results do not disprove the presence of blood, isn't really an argument anyone can or should take seriously.

Resorting to "citation-denial" when arguing the ECHR calunnia case appeal will not be successful, is just more propaganda. And its hard to see where such motivation comes from.

Why would anyone want to see innocent people in prison for a crime they didn't commit? Unless its a civil attorney using the law to steal money from innocent families, and who doesn't care about miscarriages of justice. Such a lawyer belongs in prison and is worse than an "honest criminal", imo, because they add the lie.

By the way, didn't the judge in the Calamandrei case acquit on the basis that, "the crime did not exist", thereby formally rejecting the allegation of a double body swap? And since the prosecutor did not appeal, doesn't that make it a judicial truth that there was no double body swap?
 
You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.

Yes, it would be nice to find some forensic evidence before sending them to prison for decades to come.

The opposite of this is not necessarily, "otherwise the suspect must be innocent." I'm surprised at you Machiavelli: you are not usually this sloppy, relying on strawman arguments.

There is no one I know who is making this dichotomy, in the manner which you state. It is why I fundamentally believe you are being dishonest in your posts here.

Others' mileage will vary in their view of you.
 
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You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.

If her confession matched the crime scene with information that was not known at the time, I might believe that the evidence should not be used but I would believe that she was guilty. There are cases where I believe that the defendant is guilty but should not be convicted.

Since Amanda's confession does not match the crime and seemed to be under intense pressure, I would argue that it is no different than the many other cases of false confession.

If it was a circumstantial case but the circumstantial evidence was solid, I would support the conviction. You don't even have a poor circumstantial case though.
 
You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.
I just read this on TJMK, where you post, by P Quennell.

Extensive forensic evidence within days tied them both to the scene. Not a single element of it has been discredited in the eyes of the Massei trial and Nencini appeal court. Not even one. Nothing was proven falsified, no item at all.

Considering Matteini used the shoeprints in the bedroom as evidence tying Sollecito to the crime, and a reason to detain, can you find any explanation for PQ making this very strongly worded false statement?
 
I just read this on TJMK, where you post, by P Quennell.

Extensive forensic evidence within days tied them both to the scene. Not a single element of it has been discredited in the eyes of the Massei trial and Nencini appeal court. Not even one. Nothing was proven falsified, no item at all.

Considering Matteini used the shoeprints in the bedroom as evidence tying Sollecito to the crime, and a reason to detain, can you find any explanation for PQ making this very strongly worded false statement?

That's quite the statement by P Quennell. Who is he again?

Take "mixed blood" for instance. Even though forensic samples found at the crime-scene (all of them outside the murder room) were described by some as containing blood of Amanda mixed with blood of Meredith, the Massei court was clear in its motivation report:

It was Amanda's biological material mixed with Meredith's blood. Setting aside the sloppy manner in which these samples were collected by the Scientific Police, this alone is a major departure from what P Quennell claims. Massei even suggests the manner in which the biological material from Amanda came to be mixed with Meredith's blood - he said it was sloughing of skin cells from Amanda when she allegedly cleaned Meredith's blood off of her.

In no way, shape or form is Massei advancing mixed-blood, unlike the pro-guilt lobby which has blanketed comments' boxes of news services for the last 5 years....

Nencini is different. His motivations report (in the English version) is unclear on this subject.

The Massei report did not accept about 13 or 14 major issues that was presented at the 2009 trial by Mignini. Another one was the state of the relationship between Amanda and Meredith, which Massei found to be normal. Another was motive - for Massei the motive was all Rudy's, from which Amanda and Raffaele made an inexplicable "choice for evil".

So it is unclear what P Quennell is talking about. It sounds like he doesn't know much about the case. (Is he really going to use Mattieni!?!?)
 
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You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.
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I would tend to agree with you Mach, except for your use of the adjectives "nonsense" and "delusion", those are subjective at best, but I do agree with your point about comparing Rudy's non-presence in the bathroom to Amanda's non-presence in Meredith's room. It's a good point, and I also wonder what will happen with the ECHR. I don't think anything will be changed because of it, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Being a critical thinker like myself, wouldn't you agree that you should always be willing to be proven wrong. Doesn't mean you will be, but I believe a real critical thinker should always be open to being proven wrong. What you use as a standard for being proven wrong is totally up to you. It has to be that way or it won't feel right to you.

I look at life as one long research project and my goal is to disprove all my beliefs. It's an interesting way to learn about how your perceptions can color your way of looking at things, and one way to see this in other people's writings is in the adjectives they chose to use.

I honestly believe that the adjectives you chose shows the perceptive bias you are using to parse things.

But, that's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary,

d

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tsig,

Without a recording, it starts out as Ms. Knox's word against the police. Ms. Nadeau is broadly PG and clearly has no kind feelings toward Ms. Knox, yet she at the very least accepts Ms. Knox's account as plausible. Ms. Knox lied about the marijuana use in the house. The police lied about so many things that I wouldn't trust myself to name them all in one sitting. The lies, misdirection, and unethical behavior from ILE include the bleach receipts, the Harry Potter book, whether or not Ms. Knox's clothes were found, CCTV coverage, the supposed match between the bloody shoe print and Raffaele's shoes, and the red bathroom photo. I also have to wonder who was responsible for the false rumors about Raffaele. Anyone with a real bias for the truth would have to acknowledge that Dr. Giobbi's testimony that he heard Amanda scream is more consistent with a high pressure interrogation than the tea and crumpets version of the police (BTW, I don't think that Ms. Knox being struck was the worst part of the interrogation, as others have noted).

This is the mass of pro-Knoxes myths. All those are false. They are falsehoods construed by the Knox propaganda folks, and this has been shown (I debunked severs of them on this board). Many are also complete nonsense, beyond unsupported or proven false. And all those points bear a burden of proof by those who claim them (the pro-Knox).
 
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different hospital in the Patricia Stallings case

From what you write in the quoted post, there was an ethylene glycol standard run at about the same time as the unknown, and there was a 30 s retention time difference. Did the lab maintain a record of ethylene glycol retention times to give them a statistical measure of how likely the 30s difference was due to chance? Is that how they decided there was no difference in the compositions of the unknown and the standard? Or did they "hand wave" = BS?
I am not sure how many standards they ran or how close in time the standards were run to the unknown. I probably should have made that clearer. However in my experience with the gas chromatography of other compounds, when the same sample is run multiple times, the retention times are usually close (within a few sections). That is why I said that claiming identity effectively required a hand wave to explain this discrepancy. I don't know whether or not anyone from the lab was directly questioned about this, but I doubt it. The review happened long after the test.

The other big problem was the length of time between the feeding and the measurement of the amount of ethylene glycol, which was several days. This should have raised a warning flag but did not. Patricia Stallings was unlucky in some ways; she drove to the wrong hospital, one that had a toxicology lab (which may have predisposed them to think in terms of poisons). If she had driven to the hospital she intended, they might have been better able to diagnose a rare, inborn metabolic disorder, having a program to do that IIRC.
 
You have the right to believe any nonsense and delusion you like; I also recall that you had the idea that to find someone guilty you should find forensic evidence still in the murder room, otherwise the suspect must be innocent. You can believe any irrational theory and make up any baseless reasoning of your like.
This conviction will never be erased, and no ECHR statement will ever change thus.

Except for the statement "we find that there has been a violation of article 6". That will change everything. I mean, maybe some lunatic Italians will prefer to continue to say that the kids are "convicted killers" per the human-rights-violating-court. But who would care.
 
This is the mass of pro-Knoxes myths. All those are false. They are falsehoods construed by the Knox propaganda folks, and this has been shown (I debunked severs of them on this board). Many are also complete nonsense, beyond unsupported or proven false. And all those points bear a burden of proof by those who claim them (the pro-Knox).
With respect Machiavelli, this post is far from your best work, but definitely has a place in proving guilters can not respond to detail.
 
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tsig,

Without a recording, it starts out as Ms. Knox's word against the police. Ms. Nadeau is broadly PG and clearly has no kind feelings toward Ms. Knox, yet she at the very least accepts Ms. Knox's account as plausible. Ms. Knox lied about the marijuana use in the house. The police lied about so many things that I wouldn't trust myself to name them all in one sitting. The lies, misdirection, and unethical behavior from ILE include the bleach receipts, the Harry Potter book, whether or not Ms. Knox's clothes were found, CCTV tcoverage, the supposed match between the bloody shoe print and Raffaele's shoes, and the red bathroom photo. I also have to wonder who was responsible for the false rumors about Raffaele. Anyone with a real bias for the truth would have to acknowledge that Dr. Giobbi's testimony that he heard Amanda scream is more consistent with a high pressure interrogation than the tea and crumpets version of the police (BTW, I don't think that Ms. Knox being struck was the worst part of the interrogation, as others have noted).

This is the mass of pro-Knoxes myths. All those are false. They are falsehoods construed by the Knox propaganda folks, and this has been shown (I debunked severs of them on this board). Many are also complete nonsense, beyond unsupported or proven false. And all those points bear a burden of proof by those who claim them (the pro-Knox).
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I don't know Mach. A lot of these things have been discussed here and I don't think they are all myths.* You read like you're pissed off and your Italian to English translation is a little off. That seems to happen a lot.

I personally have to admire you for knowing and being able to converse in two languages, something I can't do except a little French, but I have to say I like the calm objective you more than the seemingly (in my opinion) pissed off you.

It's the adjectives you chose to use I tell ya, in my opinion of course.

And also in my opinion, I hope you keep hangin' out here often like you have (and all the other probably-guilty crowd also), some of your points are well taken even though some other people here can't see them that clearly,

d

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ETA: *As an example, I personally know the red (pink in my opinion) bathroom photo is not a myth, because I remember seeing it and reading some of the article that accompanied it. Sorry I don't have a source, but that don't prove it ain't a myth to me. It just makes it my opinion only. Maybe someone here can supply a source.

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I would tend to agree with you Mach, except for your use of the adjectives "nonsense" and "delusion", those are subjective at best, but I do agree with your point about comparing Rudy's non-presence in the bathroom to Amanda's non-presence in Meredith's room. It's a good point, and I also wonder what will happen with the ECHR. I don't think anything will be changed because of it, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Being a critical thinker like myself, wouldn't you agree that you're always willing to be proven wrong. Doesn't mean you will be, but I believe a real critical thinker should always be open to being proven wrong. What you use as a standard for being proven wrong is totally up to you. It has to be that way or it won't feel right to you.

I look at life as one long research project and my goal is to disprove all my beliefs. It's an interesting way to learn about how perception can color your way of looking at things, and one way to see this in other people's writings is in the adjectives they chose to use.

I honestly believe that the adjectives you chose shows the perceptive bias you are using to parse things.

In my opinion,

d

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Amy, my positions and perceptions and those of most of those writing here are so far apart from each other that I believe I too will be seen as a fool or a liar by many of those holding those views.

Several people writing here, btw, have said they would never be ready to accept a guilty verdict (Diocletus, carbonjam) at no condition, others (Kauffer) have set absurdly undue conditions. Some others set conditions that are openly irrational about a number if points of evidence and believe a series of unsupported postulates at the same time. Some believe a series of myths (carbonjam is ready to believe Mignini was inspired by Carlizzi, even she proven that Carlizzi was arrested by Mignini and that her theory was totally different; or some think it makes sense to believe fake ELISA tests or think police publishes red bathroom pictures etc. all in the face of evidence of the contrary). Some have expressed positions that I consider plain racist and prejudicial.
I am not particularly optimistic about the possibility of being proven false give the absence of any ground for dialogue.

The Wikipedia page about the Narducci case says Cassazione in 2013 stated that the double body theory was false and Narducci committed suicide. This is false, I have the 2013 Cassazione ruling, and it says nothing like that. Many things like this are proven false to the Knox supporters all the time, and they seem to not notice or to forget.
 
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Machiaveli,

Your comment is rubbish, and it is not even up to your usual standards of obfuscation.

You talk about police lying about bleach receipts and smuggling bathroom pictures to tabloids, you make claims of "lies" that never existed, and you call my statement "obfuscation"...
 
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