jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Any corroborating evidence such as the physical beings present listing the 'things' that were being done are correctly reported by Seymour. as having been done?
Near Death and Out of Body Experiences
- Thread starter zengirl
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Any corroborating evidence such as the physical beings present listing the 'things' that were being done are correctly reported by Seymour. as having been done?
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Hallucinations are very believable to the person hallucinating.
While recovering from surgery I was on morphine. During that time I have the distinct memory of speaking with my brother who was standing at the foot of my bed. We spoke for a while then he left. Problem is that my brother was never in the hospital room or even in the same city. He did call me from his home a 1000 miles away and we spoke for a while. I have the memory of him being on the phone but my entire conversation is a memory of him standing there then walking out. I do not have any memory of speaking on the phone or hanging the phone up. Reality was replaced by hallucination. I know this. However, if there were no competing memory and information I could easily see it being accepted as reality.
While recovering from surgery I was on morphine. During that time I have the distinct memory of speaking with my brother who was standing at the foot of my bed. We spoke for a while then he left. Problem is that my brother was never in the hospital room or even in the same city. He did call me from his home a 1000 miles away and we spoke for a while. I have the memory of him being on the phone but my entire conversation is a memory of him standing there then walking out. I do not have any memory of speaking on the phone or hanging the phone up. Reality was replaced by hallucination. I know this. However, if there were no competing memory and information I could easily see it being accepted as reality.
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Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
You do understand what a theory means in scientific terms don't you?
For one thing they are far better grounded in evidence than the conjectures* you keep throwing at us.
*What you are claiming is true is so badly evidenced, nay, actually goes so far against the evidence that in scientific terms it doesn't merit the term hypothesis. It is, at best, hypothetical daydreaming.
xterra
So far, so good...
I had the same kind of experience, except that I KNEW that the sky was cracking open* to allow something in from some other (place? dimension? layer? whatever) that would destroy the world. This was as real as the pain I was feeling, but a lot more terrifying.
The doctor on call came in soon thereafter, and I passed on the information. He said he would alert someone....
*Chicken Little, anyone?
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
I guess zengirl is off on a NBE and OFE*. Don't go towards the ban hammer!
Near Banning Experience
Out of Forum Experience
Near Banning Experience
Out of Forum Experience
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
While in recovery I upset a whole room full of nurses. Suffice it to say that I was a bit out of my mind worried about my wife who had stepped out for lunch (which I forgot) and did not know her way around the city(which was forefront in my mind, but a moot point I did not consider since she was across the street).
I don't like being high.
Point is of course that delusions and hallucinations are very "true" to the person experiencing them. Dreams and hypoxia induced hallucinations are no different than drug induced ones. When someone speaks of things such as NDE it behooves those investigating their veracity to find ways to falsify the claim. One such method would be for the details of the description of what is happening to be compared with what actually happened. If the NDE describes 6 people in the room and a female nurse intubating the patient but in fact it was a male doctor and only 4 people in the room, that destroys the claim.
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I've put a post up in the NDE thread with some references that might be interesting to the discussions here (no need to repeat it here).
OBEs occur primarily due to a breakdown in multi-sensory integration, where the typical stable sense of self becomes destablised. Some research is suggesting that such people have biases in Bayesian processes in the brain that may predispose them to such instances.
OBEs occur primarily due to a breakdown in multi-sensory integration, where the typical stable sense of self becomes destablised. Some research is suggesting that such people have biases in Bayesian processes in the brain that may predispose them to such instances.
Jodie
Philosopher
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Can you provide any documentation or research that unequivocally states that NDE's are related to oxygen deprivation?
Don't bother, I already know the answer, you can't. Therefore you simply believe that the results of the research are conclusive without question.
JohnG
Pedantic Bore
No, she isn't (emphasis on the word "cult" in "cult classic") and it's Christopher Reeve. Are you ever right about anything?
I can, and indeed I have in the other thread on NDEs. However, I add an important qualification.
Cerebral anoxia and hypoxia may well be part of the natural process of dying for most people. However, the hallucinatory imagery of the NDE should really be thought of as being due to neural disinhibition, which can be triggered by anoxia / hypoxia - but can also occur in the absence of both (i.e., migraine and epilepsy). So the real component is neural disinhibition.
I've provided a link in the other thread to two papers that should, if you take the time to read them carefully, explain and evidence these ideas (and others). Lots of citations and evidence there.
PS. I think it was Fujiwara et al., circa 1987, who was the first to show that as hypoxia increases and slowly turns into anoxia, inhibitory neurons are the first to fail, thus inducing a state of excitation in the brain. So these neurons are far more sensitive to imbalances in blood gases - which is important to know, as their failure is the process of neural disinhibition.
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Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I had the great pleasure of believing that I was being held prisoner by the Nazis and attempting to tell my doctor everything I knew about the Manhattan Project. I also thought my nurse was mad at me because I sold out by allowing "Wicked" to be performed on Broadway.
I got to see a movie that did not exist. I also got to listen to spies talking on the frequency of my breathing machine.
I highly recommend the experience insofar as it was horrible, painful and terrifying.
The mind, deprived of stimulation, will imagine just about anything.
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
DO you know how science works, at all?
You appear to be playing the same trope that those who believe in ESP play.
At any rate, here are two what you will likely call "equivocal" statements about the connection, which is more evidence than has ever been presented that the "soul" exists independently of the brain, or that there is an "afterlife" upon which to report (consider the "D" in "NDE"...)
http://www.livescience.com/11010-death-experiences-linked-oxygen-deprivation.html
http://www.koestler-parapsychology.psy.ed.ac.uk/Documents/MobbsWattNDE.pdf
Anyone can make "unequivocal" statements. Where is your "unequivocal" evidence that "NDEs" are experiences of anything other than the functions of the brain?
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Belz...
Fiend God
Do you think it's polite to answer your own question and conclude based on said answer ? Can I try it ?
Can you provide scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that NDEs are what you claim they are ? Of course you can't. Therefore your claim is make-believe.
Can you provide any documentation that you're not an alien from Gamma Orionis ? Of course you can't, damn invader !
See, it's so easy ! Instead, why don't you ask a question and watch me squirm ?
Oh, and by the way:
http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/444/Near-Death-Experience.html
Have fun with the links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
You have been served.
Olowkow
Philosopher
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Posted early in this thread.
Indeed, the GLOC stuff is well known about. If you read the papers I mentioned earlier you will see other examples, so far ignored (i.e., cardioinhibitory syncopy) all of which provides more evidence.
I think I'm right in saying there were also experiments in the 1960s using inflatable neck collars, which made people pass out...All produce similar findings - dissociation and hallucinatory imagery of a similar theme and all for similar reasons - disinhibition due to cerebral hypoxia / anoxia.
Here is the link to one paper
https://www.academia.edu/10060970/O...ist_notions_of_the_Near-death_experience_NDE_
and a link to an earlier one
https://www.academia.edu/574245/Towards_a_Cognitive_Neuroscience_of_the_Dying_Brain
https://www.academia.edu/10060970/O...ist_notions_of_the_Near-death_experience_NDE_
and a link to an earlier one
https://www.academia.edu/574245/Towards_a_Cognitive_Neuroscience_of_the_Dying_Brain
Jodie
Philosopher
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I can, and indeed I have in the other thread on NDEs. However, I add an important qualification.
Cerebral anoxia and hypoxia may well be part of the natural process of dying for most people. However, the hallucinatory imagery of the NDE should really be thought of as being due to neural disinhibition, which can be triggered by anoxia / hypoxia - but can also occur in the absence of both (i.e., migraine and epilepsy). So the real component is neural disinhibition.
I've provided a link in the other thread to two papers that should, if you take the time to read them carefully, explain and evidence these ideas (and others). Lots of citations and evidence there.
PS. I think it was Fujiwara et al., circa 1987, who was the first to show that as hypoxia increases and slowly turns into anoxia, inhibitory neurons are the first to fail, thus inducing a state of excitation in the brain. So these neurons are far more sensitive to imbalances in blood gases - which is important to know, as their failure is the process of neural disinhibition.
My point in quoting Belz was to stress that the explanation of anoxia is too simplistic. Not everyone experiencing hypoxia and anoxia, that is revived, will have an NDE therefore it can't be the only explanation.
I was thinking of the research for developing AI and what is involved with human perception in mind when I responded to Belz.I might be reading too much into AI research but I think it reflects how our organic brains work to some extent. Organic AI, or biological computers, are too new to really compare them to the human brain but that might change in the future. I hope I get to download into Six if it happens in my lifetime.
With the Multi-net-logic, the description of qbits as morphogrammatic pattern on the level of possibilities in pre-conscious quantum spacetime, is a new theory of quantum computing given, in an entirely different sense compared with theories of classical physics and computing science. All linearity and value restrictions are annulled. There is no algorithm but furthermore parallel processing of reflections operators and transjunctional gaps for transformation of quantum information in and between neurons that produces a series of conscious events.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225303548_Quantum_computing_-_An_attempt_to_unify_HameroffPenrose_orchOT_with_GuentherKaehr_kenomic_computation
Jodie
Philosopher
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Everyone likes a pat explanation but very little in life conforms to that mold.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I'm sorry, but your post is gibberish. The fact that not all people suffering hypoxia have NDE's has nothing to do with the relationship between hypoxia and NDE's. Not all people who are human are women; but all women are human. Some people may not remember an NDE, or the part of their brain that synthesizes experience may turn off before neural disinhibition begins, or many other possibilities.
Your last paragraph has nothing to do with anything at all. It just has the words "brain" and "quantum" in it.
As I stated above, and in the other thread on here, it is not the useful or helpful way to concepualize the situation by focusing on anoxia in that way.
Neuroscientific accounts are clear on this. NDEs are produced by a massively disinhibited brain. That disinhibition can come about for a variety of reasons some of which have nothing to do with anoxia (i.e., stress, anxiety, drugs, migraine, epilepsy, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, illness, fever, tumour, syncopy). So you can see how this navigates, easily, around the claim that the neuroscientific argument is wrong, as NDEs are reported in non-anoxic situations. Indeed they are, but not in situations where neural disinhibition is absent and also, non-anoxic NDEs tend to be less vivid, striking and contain fewer core elements - likely due to the level of disinhibition being less. Anoxia is not necessary for an NDE, however, it is likely to be the main contributing factor to initiating disinhibition during a 'typical' death.
It is more than interesting that hypoxia and anoxia are associated with hallucinations and dissociation because it induces states of neural disinhibition which is the scenario in many NDEs.
I must confess that a little part of me dies when anyone talks about quantum and brain. All you are really doing here is saying "hey consciousness is spooky and hey, so is quantum mechanics, perhaps consciousness is quantum" You are taking one mystery and trying to use it to explain another - and in so doing - explaining nothing.
We are no where near having exhausted brain processes at the classical level yet - best do that first I think.
Please dont ignore the earlier posts and discussion and please read the papers cited / linked to above. Lots of food for thought.
Regards
DrB
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