Near Death and Out of Body Experiences

zengirl said:
put a dream, hallucination , delusion in a jar and send it to me so I will have proof that they exist...
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Folks, is this is the best the Woo-woo community has to offer?

Zengirl, your claims about OBE and NDE are the a priori claims. Put those in a jar and send them to me, same as you just demanded, or STFU.

:facepalm:
 
zengirl said:
sorry for accepting a non-science explanation....I am not a fundamentalist science fan and do not worship at the altar of ''I am a scientist and know what is real and what is not real".......
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What some are trying to find out is why do you then worship at the altar of "I am not a scientist and know what is real and what is not real".


zengirl said:
there is no proof of any of those explanations...theories at best.....
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Do you know why there is no proof?
 
I have no hope that Zengirl's caught the irony that she insists on someone proving that identified phenomena are real by capturing an abstract noun in a jar, yet she's willing to accept blithering idiots', con artists' and ufologists' claims as "verified", just because she read them in writing somewhere.
 
Jodie said:
We will never know if the reports of NDE's are right or wrong until we experience the death process for ourselves.
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If that were true, science wouldn't work. Of course we can know if they are right or wrong.

They are wrong.

zengirl said:
Interesting idea Jodie. I do believe nde's are real....
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I'm sorry but that's nonsense. It's very clear that they are oxygen-deprivation experiences under extreme circumstances. No wonder people see their gods and loved ones under those conditions.

Think about it: how about people who just die -- say, via a heart failure ? When they are reanimated, do they speak of going to heaven ? Nope, because the heart simply stopped, so did their consciousness. This is another indicator that NDEs are _not_ previews of the afterlife.

Logic first, wishful thinking second never.

There are people who travel out of body on a regular basis....my uncle, a doctor , is one of them....I have been out of body myself..
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No, you haven't.

Having a feeling isn't an indicator of truth. You felt like you were out of your body, maybe, but it doesn't mean you were. There are plenty of ways to alter consciousness chemically or physically. None of them amount to magic.

How about people who have fear of things that are perfectly safe, like elevators ? Do their feelings of dread indicate actual danger ? No, they do not. Don't trust your feelings.

The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.---------
-------The only source of knowledge is experience.

Albert Einstein
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Einstein was wrong sometimes. In this case, he was wrong. And this is coming from someone who has far more imagination than knowledge.

there is no proof that you exist....
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Of course there is. You should unlearn all that new-age crap you've bought into and instead invest on some basic logic courses.
 
Loss Leader said:
I had a heart arrhythmia that led to me being flat-lined for just about a minute. I saw and heard absolutely nothing. It wasn't dreamlike. It was just ... nothing.

Please add my anecdote to the pile and have it offset one pro-NDE anecdote. I would appreciate it if it could be Goldie Hawn's. Thank you.
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Locknar said:
Likewise (though for different reasons), I've been flat-lined...nothing to report.
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Pfft. Neither of you are celebrities.
 
zengirl said:
I would say millions of obe's around the world are corroboration...
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If that were the case, every single supernatural belief would be true, and the world would make zero sense. Unfortunately for you, the world _does_ make sense.

Also, I would like to point out that the experiences vary with belief and life experience, something you wouldn't expect if these were actual glimpses into the afterlife. Why would some people see Vishnu ?

Kids and adults are shown scenes of themselves in the future...
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Have you managed to rule out confirmation bias via carefully-designed double-blind protocols ?

Some people with no knowledge or understanding of their multi-dimensional existence manage to fool themselves into thinking only the physical worlds exist...............
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See, now that's a claim. Please present objective evidence for the existence of other "dimensions". The problem here is that we all experience different things. But there is only one reality that seems to operate the same way for all. Are you saying that there are several other realities, and that, say, the God of the bible is only one of several such deities ?

It's a non-physical experience....how do you measure that?
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More to the point: how would you experience that ? Bear in mind that if things can interact, then they affect each other and thus produce detectable movements or results. If your brain can experience other realities we should be able to see that. We don't. And if you're about to reply that the mind is multi-dimensional, that counts as physical.

It changes the soul forever
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Question-begging.

You don't measure it...you experience it...
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Same thing. Your ignorance of all things rational sure help paint a picture of why you believe nonsense like this.

Donald Sutherland
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Your fascination with the tales of celebrities is cute but irrelevant.
 
zengirl said:
Again, zengirl, this is a discussion forum, not a personal blog site for copying and pasting from elsewhere. If you wish to reference material from elsewhere, cite a short passage and provide the source and then, you know, discuss the subject matter instead of just posting copypasta. Please see Rule 4 and Rule 6.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
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Countdown to zengirl suspension/ban...

10... 9... 8....
 
zengirl said:
Not true....humans are more than a brain and a body
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Prove it.

It wasn't a dream....read books on the subject and see....
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Why read books written by people who have something to sell you ?

Read some scientific literature instead.

.....people who aren't neurosurgeons know what they have experienced...
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Once again: the experience doesn't tell you how it happened. You don't know how your brain produces images and sounds, but it does.

why are many of the experiences so alike?
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Why are so many not ?

being told it's not your time, you have more to do....
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If it's not your time, then why are you even seeing these things ? That makes no sense.

chemicals don't tell you it's not your time, go back, or show images of your future....
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They also don't make you run. Oh, wait, they do ! Imagine a house, right now. Wait, chemicals can't make you imagine a house, can they ? Of course they can.

......and how do you know they weren't guides...
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The claim must be proven, not disproven. Otherwise you'd have millions of different, mutually-exclusive claims (and religions) to believe simultaneously.

no evidence of that at all....next...
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Evidence ? How about YOUR evidence ? We KNOW hallucinations exist. We KNOW that brains produce them when deprived of oxygen. We KNOW that people tend to see what they want to see. Is that not evidence ?

Your skepticism is ironic, given your knee-jerk acceptance of the magical one.

And as MikeG said, you don't even consider a prosaic explanation. Why do you jump to the supernatural when it has never been shown to exist ?

you can't prove something is a dream
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Of course you can, unless your belief is that everything experienced exists. So if I dream about Darth Vader, he actually exists somewhere.

put a dream, hallucination , delusion in a jar
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Put an NDE or OBE in a jar.

Oh, wait, that's not what "proof" means.
 
Belz... said:
The woo-woo community has nothing to offer except as an example of how not to think.
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It's more than that. They want a reversal of proof and belief. Because science uses repeatable methods and demonstrable evidence somehow that's just a belief. And when woos use 'gut feeling', 'it seems', 'I believe' and 'I just know' somehow that's proof.
 
Spindrift said:
It's more than that. They want a reversal of proof and belief. Because science uses repeatable methods and demonstrable evidence somehow that's just a belief. And when woos use 'gut feeling', 'it seems', 'I believe' and 'I just know' somehow that's proof.
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And the reason is obvious: feelings are more real to most people than anything else. Anything that clashes with those feelings must therefore, by definition, be wrong.
 
Belz... said:
Yes.
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xterra said:
Hmm, what about Flaccon, and Robin1, and George Simpson?
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Far from it. These are the lunatic fringe, True BelieversTM and wannabes. The "best" that the dark side has are raking in serious money selling books and readings and entire lifestyle packages. We aren't seeing those people. Deepak isn't coming here to argue with Dawkins because Dawkins isn't here and they both get far more coverage than our little board provides. John Edward isn't coming over to give Robin1 a "Big Hugs" smiley, because John's too busy fleecing his flock out of millions.

We are no longer a magnet for 36th degree True Believers. The best we've got is Noreen Renier doing drive-by postings, trying to save a tad of credibility after Sherlock's two-decade long de-fanging.
 
Different interpretations of the word: "best" as in "most committed in belief." I was thinking of the True Believers, rather than the show-biz people.


In any case, this is ... innerestin, innit?
 
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