Is ESP More Probable Than Advanced Alien Life?

I will explain the blindingly obvious
And I will explain the blindingly obvious to YOU: folks in this thread with in-depth knowledge of these issues and the studies involved disagree with you. Yours is not the only interpretation in this thread.

I see. So asking for something more than circumstantial evidence to explain a phenomena reported by hundreds of millions of people is somehow questionable.
That's not what you did. You systematically set up a situation where you would be able to dismiss any statement I made. I've debated Creationists; I have seen that tactic too many times to count. It's boring, it's counter-productive, and I refuse to take the bait.

Excuse me…the vast majority of what passes for individual and collective activity on this planet would utterly cease to occur if that standard were imposed.
We're not talking about thevast majority of human activity. We're talking science. You don't get to say "But this is allowed in football!!!!" if we're playing Poker, which is the equivalent of what you are trying to do.

Play by the rules, or your arguments are inadmissible. It is as simple as that.

…and I’m going to say this again because you keep ignoring it.

You are the ones who claim to have conclusively explained these phenomena.
We have. You don't like the explanations, but we have. Now I'm bored with playing your game and will go back to the actual rules: Put up or shut up. Provide evidence that every single one of these claims is valid--which is EXACTLY what scientists are obliged to do--or admit you can't and shut up about them. Those are your two options. I will consider claims that can be substantiated, using the standard scientific definition of the term. Any other claim doesn't rise to the level of being worth considering in a scientific discussion.

As I will indisputably establish when I get my replies, the explanations you have produced are…and can be nothing but…very far from conclusive.
See, this is how I know you were using weasle words. NOTHING I provide will be conclusive, because your standards shift. If I provide something that establishes that 99% of the cases are not real, you'll say it's not conclusive because 1% aren't addressed. If I provide two that show collectively that 100% aren't real, you'll dismiss both because one only covers 70% of them and one covers 80% of them.

Here's the dirty little secret your entire contribution to this thread is designed to hide: You are demanding more evidence to disprove your claims than you demand before accepting them. This is an egregious and wanton violation of scientific protocols, a clear demonstration of bias on your part, and a dishonest attempt at shifting the burden of proof. If that were all I knew about this subject, I could dismiss every single thing you say--EVERY. SINGLE. WORD.--on that basis alone. You are not a reliable source, pure and simple. But folks here are overly-generous, and are bending the rules for you, often to the breaking point. And your response is nothing but vitrial and personal attacks.

Either demonstrate--conclusively, by standard definitions for the relevant terms in scientific discourse--that the cases involved are valid--every one of them, because we only need consider the ones you do so demonstrate to be valid--or we're done here. Given your posting style, I will give you ONE chance to do so. If your next post is not an in-depth analysis of these claims (again, I'm being overly generous--a good faith effort of a dozen or so will sufficie) I will not respond to anything else you have to say in this thread.
 
And I will explain the blindingly obvious to YOU: folks in this thread with in-depth knowledge of these issues and the studies involved disagree with you. Yours is not the only interpretation in this thread.

That's not what you did. You systematically set up a situation where you would be able to dismiss any statement I made. I've debated Creationists; I have seen that tactic too many times to count. It's boring, it's counter-productive, and I refuse to take the bait.

We're not talking about thevast majority of human activity. We're talking science. You don't get to say "But this is allowed in football!!!!" if we're playing Poker, which is the equivalent of what you are trying to do.

Play by the rules, or your arguments are inadmissible. It is as simple as that.

We have. You don't like the explanations, but we have. Now I'm bored with playing your game and will go back to the actual rules: Put up or shut up. Provide evidence that every single one of these claims is valid--which is EXACTLY what scientists are obliged to do--or admit you can't and shut up about them. Those are your two options. I will consider claims that can be substantiated, using the standard scientific definition of the term. Any other claim doesn't rise to the level of being worth considering in a scientific discussion.

See, this is how I know you were using weasle words. NOTHING I provide will be conclusive, because your standards shift. If I provide something that establishes that 99% of the cases are not real, you'll say it's not conclusive because 1% aren't addressed. If I provide two that show collectively that 100% aren't real, you'll dismiss both because one only covers 70% of them and one covers 80% of them.

Here's the dirty little secret your entire contribution to this thread is designed to hide: You are demanding more evidence to disprove your claims than you demand before accepting them. This is an egregious and wanton violation of scientific protocols, a clear demonstration of bias on your part, and a dishonest attempt at shifting the burden of proof. If that were all I knew about this subject, I could dismiss every single thing you say--EVERY. SINGLE. WORD.--on that basis alone. You are not a reliable source, pure and simple. But folks here are overly-generous, and are bending the rules for you, often to the breaking point. And your response is nothing but vitrial and personal attacks.

Either demonstrate--conclusively, by standard definitions for the relevant terms in scientific discourse--that the cases involved are valid--every one of them, because we only need consider the ones you do so demonstrate to be valid--or we're done here. Given your posting style, I will give you ONE chance to do so. If your next post is not an in-depth analysis of these claims (again, I'm being overly generous--a good faith effort of a dozen or so will sufficie) I will not respond to anything else you have to say in this thread.


...all you have to do is provide one piece of evidence (or a mountain of evidence...I don't care what it is) that conclusively establishes that even a single event is fraudulent (that what someone says they experienced is not what they experienced).

I know for a fact that you cannot even begin to do this and I know, and can very effectively argue, why that is the case. As for the other couple of hundred million, I'll be back later.
 
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...the point was, Nonpareil insisted that ALL memories are flawed. Are you agreeing with Nonpareil?
Nonpareil responded to:
…so because it has been circumstantially (do you know what that word means?) established that in-some-cases memories are fallible and recollections can be ‘polluted’ (whatever that means)… it is scientifically valid to conclude that every single one of the hundreds of millions of reported cases can be thus dismissed.



What exactly else did you do between eating a bagel for breakfast and visiting a business client?
 
...all you have to do is provide one piece of evidence (or a mountain of evidence...I don't care what it is) that conclusively establishes that even a single event is fraudulent (that what someone says they experienced is not what they experienced).

I know for a fact that you cannot even begin to do this and I know, and can very effectively argue, why that is the case. As for the other couple of hundred million, I'll be back later.

And this is where your habitual dishonesty, and the inherent dishonesty of your"method", becomes inescapable.

The highlighted is not the definition of "fraudulent"; it is not a definition of "fraudulent"; it is not equivalent with, or synonymous to, "fraudulent". It is, instead, your attempt to move the goalposts. It seems to be your way of posing as "more sinned against than sinning".

Did you ever come up with any of the evidence for your own claim for which I asked you?

It would be refreshing if you would address what people have actually posted, rather than continuing to alter their words to fit what seems to be your own script.
 
Why don't unviersities give a dam about ESP research and the Nobels that would come their way if they showed evidence of ESP in any shape?


Because there is not even a sniff of anything interesting in all the work that has been done.
 
...the point was, Nonpareil insisted that ALL memories are flawed. Are you agreeing with Nonpareil?
I agree with Nonpareil that all memories are fallible. Mine certainly is; I have several memories which I know cannot possibly be accurate.

Are you insisting that every memory you have is 100℅ accurate? Or do you simply not understand the meaning of the word fallible? Hint: it is not a synonim for flawed.
 
How about ESP?

Life is not fully defined by science. A good book and easy read is "Weird Life" by David Tommey. One chapter deals with the problem.
However, so called advanced life might not be as difficult to determine as it will include the ability to create tools with which to alter various environments to better suit the organism. Humans occupy some of the coldest and hottest regions on this planet and are capable of creating tools to briefly work in even much harsher environments, including the vacuum of space.

. We know of no person or race that has developed an evolutionary advantage over the rest of us plebes by being able to know our thoughts, or know the course of future events, or have the capability of manipulating tools without having to touch or be physically connected to them. Imagine the hunter gatherer community that has remote viewing capabilities. They waste less energy searching for food by being able to scout the countryside. They avoid predators easily. They find prey animal populations with little effort, etc.

Me, I could swing an ability to know the exact weather any location will experience, into my becoming a billionaire. Put those duffers at the weather channel right out of business. The State of Idaho itself would pay me millions for perfect forecasting of potato crop watering and temperatures.:D
 
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You have just insisted that it has been definitively established that in ALL cases memory is fallible.

Yes.

One has to wonder why you think otherwise.

Definitively established where, how, by who?

If you really insist on playing this game, then this is all the answer I am required to give.

Why don’t we play a little game. Why don’t we ask everyone here to list the things they remember doing today. The things they remember doing yesterday. The previous day. The previous week, month, etc.

Then we ask…how many of these things can their authors be categorically sure actually occurred.

Which doesn't actually matter.

You do not understand what is being said to you.

I will absolutely guarantee you…that just about everyone will categorically insist that their recollection of today’s listed events will be 100% accurate…

Whether or not they agree (and they won't, as you can see from other responses) is irrelevant. We know memory is imperfect.

…but you have the audacity to actually insist that there is not a single memory that anyone can rely on.

No, I don't.

You can't read.

Darat CLAIMED his explanation resolved the issue.

His CLAIM…his EVIDENCE.

You still don't understand the burden of proof.

You admitted personal observation is valid evidence. Much obliged.

Yes.

And you insist on confusing this with admitting that anecdotes are evidence.

I will explain the blindingly obvious (...no apologies necessary…).

Everything that you listed there…and that others have listed (as if they’d produced some manner of revelation)…does NOT fall under the category of psi / esp / anomalous psychological phenomena (the very things that comprise those enormous statistics).

Did anyone else hear the whistle as the point went over his head?

I see. So asking for something more than circumstantial evidence to explain a phenomena reported by hundreds of millions of people is somehow questionable.

Please explain how this is so?

You say "circumstantial evidence" as if this is somehow less than other types of evidence. Presumably you mean to imply that anecdotes are that other kind.

They are not.

And a complete lack of evidence supporting the veracity of any of those anecdotes, even after decades of research, coupled with an established mechanism which does explain them in a completely logical manner is more than enough evidence to dismiss any number of such claims.

That is my claim. I have no problem establishing that it is correct. I have done far more than that on these threads in the past (just ask Nonpareil how much his argument was demolished by Dr. Rees).

You have a problem.

Excuse me…the vast majority of what passes for individual and collective activity on this planet would utterly cease to occur if that standard were imposed.

Are you going to argue that this is not the case ?!?!?!?

We've been over this.

You ignoring explanations does not make them go away.

The simple fact is, you cannot even conclusively disprove a single claim. All you can do is circumstantially / conditionally disprove claims.

Oh, no, you guys. He's right. All we can do is prove that it looks exactly like nothing is happening, there's not even a coherent definition of the thing being searched for, none of the anecdotes have any actual evidence supporting them, and there's a perfectly reasonable explanation which tells us why people might make these claims when they are not true!

What are we gonna do?
 
Can you give an example of something that exists but is not demonstrable (not: demonstrated to exist)?

Ignoring how bad this question is in the first place, I have to ask why? So you can try to troll badly again? Sorry, you don't get any more free passes.

Why is this question bad? It follows naturally from your post.
 
I agree with Nonpareil that all memories are fallible. Mine certainly is; I have several memories which I know cannot possibly be accurate.

Are you insisting that every memory you have is 100℅ accurate?


…of course not. Not even close.

For lunch today I ate some cheese. I am 100% percent confident that this memory is not fallible.

Are you actually going to agree that every memory you have is fallible? What did you do an hour ago? At lunch time? I’m sure I could ask you any number of questions about your life and activates…all of which you could answer without the slightest risk of ‘fallibility’.

Therefore…quite obviously…any of us, anywhere, anytime, can provide innumerable examples of recollections that we are 100% percent confident of, and be 100% confident that we are 100% confident.

So much for Nonpareil’s claim.
 
…of course not. Not even close.

For lunch today I ate some cheese. I am 100% percent confident that this memory is not fallible.

Are you actually going to agree that every memory you have is fallible? What did you do an hour ago? At lunch time? I’m sure I could ask you any number of questions about your life and activates…all of which you could answer without the slightest risk of ‘fallibility’.

Therefore…quite obviously…any of us, anywhere, anytime, can provide innumerable examples of recollections that we are 100% percent confident of, and be 100% confident that we are 100% confident.

So much for Nonpareil’s claim.
Still not grasping the meaning of the word fallible, I see.
 
…of course not. Not even close.

For lunch today I ate some cheese. I am 100% percent confident that this memory is not fallible.

Are you actually going to agree that every memory you have is fallible? What did you do an hour ago? At lunch time? I’m sure I could ask you any number of questions about your life and activates…all of which you could answer without the slightest risk of ‘fallibility’.

Therefore…quite obviously…any of us, anywhere, anytime, can provide innumerable examples of recollections that we are 100% percent confident of, and be 100% confident that we are 100% confident.

So much for Nonpareil’s claim.

Right, what, exactly, did you do in the interim, annnnoid?
 

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