Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[cullennz]

Because acting on their desires is wrong.

.....Because those desires are wrong

 

[Butter!]

.....Because those desires are wrong

It's clear to me that this is boiling down to an insurmountable semantic quibble. Also, it's a serious derail, so let's just stop. Or, alternatively, we could start another thread about this, but it would also just turn into a bunch of semantic quibbling round and round in circles forever, so...

If someone starts another thread, I'll join it. But I'm not sure we'd get anywhere.

 

[colander]

Who is saying that trans women are objectively not women?

Several posters in this thread have said that. If you want to know who, you can go ahead and re-read it.

Who is saying they would be angry about finding out their partner is trans? You make it sound like it's the trans-ness that would make people angry. I haven't seen that. I might be angry that somebody had failed to reveal something that they could reasonably have expected one would find important and potentially had non-trivial social consequences, but that isn't specific to this issue and in any case is completely dependent on the specific circumstances. I don't think that anybody is claiming that getting angry would be the best reaction. It would be a lot to absorb though. Given the suicide rate amongst trans people and the lack of acceptance, they clearly have a lot to deal with. Presumably partners of trans people have to deal with some portion of that. It's a lot to absorb. If I was hit with it suddenly I'm not sure that I'd react as I would if I had time to process it. That last part has nothing to do with trans. I don't turn on a dime when my expectations are turned upside down by a run of the mill born-women either. I definitely regard that as a character flaw, but for reasons outside the current topic.

My sympathy for your feelings of anger ends the second you take them out on your partner. As an emotionally and sexually mature adult, you ought to understand that people have a hell of a lot more to lose from revealing their trans-ness to the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong way than you do from learning that someone you're attracted to or have done sex with is trans.

 

[Tony]

.....Because those desires are wrong

No. Because sex with someone unable to consent (like children) is wrong.

 

[shuttlt]

Several posters in this thread have said that. If you want to know who, you can go ahead and re-read it.

OK. I'm going to assume you are wrong for now. I'm not going to search the thread to try and work out what it was that you interpreted to mean that. In past threads you've taken a completely different meaning from peoples statements to the meaning I've taken, I don't claim my interpretation is correct, so I have no confidence I'd find what ever you are referring to. If you don't want to explain what you are talking about, fine.

My sympathy for your feelings of anger end the second you take them out on your partner.

Who is doing that? What do you mean by "take them out"?

As an emotionally and sexually mature adult, you ought to understands that people have a hell of a lot more to lose from revealing their trans-ness to the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong way than you do from learning that someone you're attracted to or have done sex with is trans.

I'm pretty sure I said that in the comment your a responding to. I should add though that in this imaginary scenario, presumably they've been getting used to the whole idea for quite a while, where as I'm hitting it cold.

Honestly Colander, I struggle to relate your interpretation of this thread or my post to what I've read and written.

 

[petrov2500]

I'm not sure if these figures have been posted here or not. I did a thread search and I didn't find anything related. I read this on a UK Facebook page dedicated to Leelah Alcorn and the figures seem to check out:

• In the U.S. 41% of people who are transgender attempt suicide.
• In the UK 48% of people who are transgender under the age of 26 attempt suicide.
• In Canada 43% of people who are transgender attempt suicide.

That's staggering. It is obviously a very traumatic process.

If these numbers are accurate they debunk the notion that mean conservatives are driving transgendered people to suicide. The UK and Canada are way to the left of the United States on social views.

 

[shuttlt]

No. Because sex with someone unable to consent (like children) is wrong.

I wonder if the confusion is whether the desires are wrong, or one is wrong for having the desires?

 

[shuttlt]

If these numbers are accurate they debunk the notion that mean conservatives are driving transgendered people to suicide. The UK and Canada are way to the left of the United States on social views.

Religiously we are ridiculously different as well.

 

[luchog]

If these numbers are accurate they debunk the notion that mean conservatives are driving transgendered people to suicide. The UK and Canada are way to the left of the United States on social views.

That does not mean that UK or Canadian culture are any more accepting of transgender/transexual individuals than US culture. My experience, and that of many of my acquaintances, is that they are just as far from accepting such people as the US is; and the far-left is often just as homophobic/transphobic as the far-right.

 

[Primus]

That does not mean that UK or Canadian culture are any more accepting of transgender/transexual individuals than US culture. My experience, and that of many of my acquaintances, is that they are just as far from accepting such people as the US is; and the far-left is often just as homophobic/transphobic as the far-right.

That's pretty accurate. Look at Julie Bindel, super leftie Guardian columnist who more than once has user her column to direct a screed at transgender people.

TERF I believe is what they call themselves. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

 

[Butter!]

That does not mean that UK or Canadian culture are any more accepting of transgender/transexual individuals than US culture. My experience, and that of many of my acquaintances, is that they are just as far from accepting such people as the US is; and the far-left is often just as homophobic/transphobic as the far-right.

Yeah. Prejudice doesn't always know partisan boundaries.

 

[Lithrael]

TERF I believe is what they call themselves. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Yeah. Ugh. I can sorta see where they're coming from if I squint hard enough, but that sort of sentiment seems well off the rails of paying attention to what anybody's lived experience is. It's like the idea that trans men are just 'running away from crap treatment as a woman' or just want 'in' on male privilege. That, I assume, is classic projection.

Radicals ruin everything for everybody, film at 11.

 

[shuttlt]

I found this quote from Peter Tatchell about her on her wikipedia article:

On his website, Tatchell endorsed Bindel's criticism of "traditional male and female roles and the social pressure to conform to cultural expectations of how men and women are supposed to behave," recognising these as "often profoundly oppressive." But he criticises her for "putting gender theory and ideology before the happiness of individual human beings who feel out of place and unhappy in their birth sex".

 

[Belz...]

A question Belz

If you knew someone was what you call an ethical pedo.

Would you be fine with them being your kids primary school teacher?

Or swimming coach

Before I answer, could you at least confirm that you've read and understood my point ? Because your question seems to indicate that you have not, and your habit of not quoting people when replying to them makes following your train of thought difficult.

That said: Of course I wouldn't. But it doesn't make their preference wrong. The only things that are wrong are actions that harm other people, not mere thoughts.

 

[Belz...]

.....Because those desires are wrong

Well at least that answers my question in the previous post: you have not read and understood my post.

You seem to be unable to understand is because of personal bias. It's useless to discuss this with you until you let go of that.

 

[cullennz]

Well at least that answers my question in the previous post: you have not read and understood my post.

You seem to be unable to understand is because of personal bias. It's useless to discuss this with you until you let go of that.

The bias is because there are a huge amount of un-ethical pedos

 

[cullennz]

Before I answer, could you at least confirm that you've read and understood my point ? Because your question seems to indicate that you have not, and your habit of not quoting people when replying to them makes following your train of thought difficult.

That said: Of course I wouldn't. But it doesn't make their preference wrong. The only things that are wrong are actions that harm other people, not mere thoughts.

But they are ethical.

Why would it be an issue?

 

[Meadmaker]

If it is'nt wrong why do they have to be ethical?

I think what you seem to be missing is that the other posters are talking about desire only. Desire is generally seen as something over which you have no control. It is difficult, and perhaps impossible, to control your desires, so calling those desires "wrong" or "immoral" isn't very reasonable.

Only actions are generally considered immoral. Applying that to this situation, it would say that having sex with children is wrong. Being sexually attracted to children is an unfortunate condition, because it tempts people to do something wrong, but it is not inherently wrong in and of itself.

A pedophile is, by definition, one who is sexually attracted to children, which, as noted above, is not inherently wrong in most people's belief systems. An ethical pedophile would be one who never acts on that attraction. If one is truly worried about self control, an ethical pedophile would also need to make sure that he avoid what the Catholic Church calls "near occasions of sin". Those are situations which might make possible sexual contact with children. i.e. he shouldn't be an elementary school teacher or scoutmaster.

 

[marplots]

That's pretty accurate. Look at Julie Bindel, super leftie Guardian columnist who more than once has user her column to direct a screed at transgender people.

TERF I believe is what they call themselves. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Wow, that sounds like a well crafted Poe on their part.

 

[Meadmaker]

Just having read some things about transgender people and sexual reassignment surgery leads me to wonder:

There have always been gay men who had strong feminine feelings. There have always been cross-dressers aka drag queens. Is the percentage of men who believe themselves to be females on the increase? Or is it just that people are more willing to talk about? To acknowledge those feelings?

Physicians call this "Gender identity disorder:" People who express strong discontent with the gender they were assigned at birth or develop an aversion to it based on the gender role society expects them to play. A role that feels inappropriate to them.

Is there any physiological basis for these feelings or is it emotional in origin? In males -- like Leelah Alcorn -- who say they have always felt more female than male, is there a brain chemistry or chromosome marker associated with this? Apparently there is. Researchers now believe that there are quantifiable identifiers. Variations in genetics, hormonal variations as well as differences in brain functioning and brain structures. One research team in the Netherlands found:

Fascinating. And not in a slouch journal either. "Nature" is in the major leagues. If further research shows there really is such a thing as a "male brain" or a "female brain", that would probably change a lot of people's thinking about transgender issues. I couldn't read the article (it's a pay thing) to see how extensive the data was and how well brain physiology predicted transgender characteristics, but the abstract certainly looks like something that will have to be considered in the future.

ETA: Wait. I see the paper was published in 1995. It hasn't exactly changed the way we look at gender yet. For what reason, I wonder.