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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Reminds me of the scene when the troopers in Aliens are descending into the bowels of a nuclear reactor to save the civilians from the acid-spewing aliens.

The dimwit lieutenant is informed that there can be no gunfire in that facility lest a nuclear explosion be triggered. So he orders the individual troopers to give up their ammunition, and use flame throwers only.

Private Frosst says to his buddy when surrendering his ammunition, "What are we supposed to use: harsh language?"

Unless the Committee of Ministers can lawfully order the seizure of Italian bank accounts or the arrest of Italian authorities who fail to carry out their directives.......

Then it does not have much teeth. Sounds to me that all they do is refer their outrage to another committee.....

That'll teach them!!!!

The Council of Europe is a confederation of States for some specific purposes. The States retain all their sovereignty but they oblige themselves to be bound by the final judgments of the ECHR. The Committee of Ministers is the group of all the Foreign Ministers of the CoE States.
Most of the States have followed their obligations with great fidelity.
There is a kind of diplomatic peer pressure placed on those States which do not follow ECHR judgments in good time.
 
The Council of Europe is a confederation of States for some specific purposes. The States retain all their sovereignty but they oblige themselves to be bound by the final judgments of the ECHR. The Committee of Ministers is the group of all the Foreign Ministers of the CoE States.
Most of the States have followed their obligations with great fidelity.
There is a kind of diplomatic peer pressure placed on those States which do not follow ECHR judgments in good time.

I don't know why I thought of this, but before WWII at a prewar diplomatic conference, the Nazi Foreign Minister Ribbentrop said to Winston Churchill that if there was another war, the Italians would be on Germany's side. To which Churchill said: "that seems only fair, we had them last time!"...
 
I've got WTBH pp305-311 - the summary of the testimony.

Ms Knox says:

"The police were suspicious of us from the start, she (Napoleoni) said..."

Napoleoni references:

- the kissing at the cottage
- at the questura AK and RS "were absolutely indifferent to everyone..." whereas the other people "were all crying"
- the Guede faeces issue, says "they began to fall into contradiction. Something wasn't right?
- the statement about the locked door
- the switched off phones

Napoleoni has also decided the burglary is fake. Both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito appear to be fully formed suspects by the end of the 2nd. Then they start bugging their phones.

IIRC one of the issues with the pooh in Filomena's toilet was that it would disappear then reappear.
 
Note the highlighted paragraphs in this, part of the Hellmann court motivation report, translated.

Hellmann says, IIUC, that Amanda Knox knew Patrick Lumumba was innocent because he had no connection with Meredith Kercher, and because his name only came up because of her message to him left on her cell phone and pointed out to her by police. He further argues, IIUC, that at the time of the spontaneous statements (plural) and the subsequent Memoriale 1, Amanda was not under pressure and was not suffering from a lack of will (in the text, double negatives are used) and therefore responsible for her allegations recorded on paper. Therefore she was guilty of calunnia.

I find the Hellmann court statements (in the highlighted paragraphs below and as summarized above) to be contradicted by the description Hellmann provided earlier in this section of the motivation report, where 1) the extreme nature of the interrogation (obsessive, both day and night, carried out by many police, an interpreter suggesting amnesia) and 2) Amanda's vulnerabilities (young, inexperienced, foreign, not speaking Italian at all well, under stress of the interrogation and her flatmate's murder) are pointed out at length. I believe the argument may be made that there is a disconnect between that section and the conclusions of Amanda Knox's responsibility that is a leap of logic and thus arbitrary. Furthermore, I don't see any reference to the report of the false confession/false memory expert which I believe was submitted to the first-level court. If the expert report was in the record and not discounted by a reasonable, scientifically supported and rational argument, that would be another indication of arbitrariness.

Excerpts from:
https://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/calumny/

Beyond the formal aspect, the context in which those statements were made was clearly characterized by a psychological situation which for Amanda Knox had become an unsupportable burden: witness Donnino reports that an outright emotional shock on the part of Amanda Knox occurred when the matter of the exchange of messages with Lumumba was raised.

Now, since Lumumba was in fact uninvolved in the murder, the emotional shock cannot be considered to have arisen from her having been caught (doing what, exchanging a message with a person who had nothing to do with the crime?), but rather from having reached the limit of emotional tension.

In that context, it is understandable that Amanda Knox, yielding to pressure and fatigue, would have hoped to put an end to that situation by giving her interrogators that which, in the end, they wanted to hear: a name, a murderer.

But why Patrick Lumumba, exactly? Because the police had found, on Amanda Knox’s phone, the message “see you later”, sent by her to Lumumba on the evening of November 1; which could also mean she actually intended to see him later to go somewhere, maybe to the house on Via Della Pergola — whence the insistent questioning about that message, its meaning, and its intended recipient.

By “giving up” [Dando “in pasto”] that name to those who were interrogating her so harshly, Amanda Knox probably hoped to put an end to that pressure, now a true torment after long hours, while adding details and constructing a brief story around that name would certainly not have been particularly difficult, if for no other reason than that many details and inferences [illazioni] had already appeared in many newspapers the next day, and were circulating all throughout the city, considering the modest dimensions of Perugia.

Furthermore, the very manner in which the story is told [la stessa articolazione del racconto], as contained not only in the transcripts of the spontaneous statements but also in the note written immediately afterward, makes it seem like the confused narration of a dream, albeit a macabre one, and not the description of events that actually happened — which confirms the state that Amanda Knox was in at the time she made the spontaneous statements and wrote the note, and rules out the possibility that the purpose of either could have been to conceal [tacere, lit. “keep quiet”] the name of the actual perpetrator, Rudy Guede, [even] on the assumption that it was known to her, as a co-conspirator [concorrente].

It is indeed totally illogical to suppose that Amanda Knox, if she actually had been a participant [concorrente] in the crime, could have hoped that naming Patrick Lumumba — whom in such a case she would have known to be entirely uninvolved and far, even physically, from where the crime took place — would have helped her position in any way; it would, if anything, have been easier for her to indicate the real perpetrator, even while stressing her own absolute innocence: after all, she lived in that house, and for her to have been in her own room at the time of the crime, perhaps actually entertaining Raffaele Sollecito as held by the first-level Corte di Assise, would have been entirely normal, and would certainly not have entailed responsibility for a crime committed by others in the next room.

Thus for Amanda Knox, in the event that she had been inside the house on Via Della Pergola at the time of the murder, the easiest way to defend herself would have been to indicate the true author of the crime, [who would have been] present in any case inside the house, because this would have made her credible; and not to instead indicate a totally innocent individual, whom she had no reason to hope would be without an alibi, and who might have been able to refute the account she had provided to the police.

This Court therefore finds that Amanda Knox had indicated Lumumba as the perpetrator only because, at that moment, it appeared to be the quickest and easiest way to put an end to the situation in which she found herself, her interrogators having insisted on an explanation of the message she sent to him.

It follows from this that, with regard to the murder, not only may the “spontaneous” statements not be used, but in reality neither may the note written later, since, although usable from a procedural standpoint, it does not deserve to be relied upon from a substantive one, as it does not represent what really happened in this case.

Besides which, in the note in question Amanda Knox does not indicate either herself or Raffaele Sollecito as the perpetrator of the crime, but [instead] writes of total confusion, [and] of not being in a position to remember what she is asked — the only thing of which she is sure being her and Raffaele Sollecito’s innocence.

To quote [original English text, with minor corrections]: “In these flashbacks that I’m having, I see Patrick as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don’t remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night”…and then… “The questions that need answering, at least for how I’m thinking are: 1. Why did Raffaele lie? (or for you) Did Raffaele lie? 2. Why did I think of Patrick? 3. Is the evidence proving my presence at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable? 4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrick or any other person? “

However, this Court does not find that there is any significant objective evidence that, when she made her spontaneous statements and wrote her note, Amanda Knox was in not only a situation of considerable psychological pressure and stress but also even in a condition of not intending or wishing; so that, having accused of such a serious crime a person whom she knew to be innocent, she must in any case be held responsible for the crime of calumny, the constitution of which does not require any specific purpose from a psychological point of view, such as shifting the blame off of oneself [conseguire la propria impunità] (an aggravating circumstance alleged [here]). Generic criminal intent [il dolo generico] is sufficient, thus including the aim of escaping from a particularly oppressive personal situation.
According to the prosecution’s theory, it would be contradictory to find Amanda Knox guilty of calumny while acquitting her of the other crimes, since (it is argued) Amanda Knox could know that Patrick Lumumba was innocent of the murder only because she herself had participated in the crime, and thus was aware of its true perpetrators; if she had not participated in the crime or had not been present in the house on Via Della Pergola at the moment of the murder, she could not have known that Lumumba was innocent. This argument cannot be accepted: the circumstances under which Lumumba’s name emerged in the course of the police interrogation (a message directed to him taken from the cellular phone of Amanda Knox), and the lack of evidence of a connection between Lumumba and Meredith Kercher [should have] allowed Amanda Knox, even if actually innocent herself and far from the house on Via Della Pergola at the time of the crime, to be aware of Lumumba’s total innocence, and thus of the calumny that she was committing by pointing to him as the perpetrator of the murder. There is no contradiction, therefore, in finding her guilty of the crime of calumny, and nonetheless rejecting the aggravating circumstance under C.P. Article 61 no.2.

Taking into account the criteria established by C.P. Article 133, and recognizing mitigating circumstances equivalent to the aggravating circumstance under C.P. Article 368, second paragraph, for the reasons already explained by the first-level Corte di Assise (lack of criminal record, young age, involvement in academic pursuits [impegno nella vita scholastica], etc.), and considering the particular gravity of the underlying crime of calumny, it is equitable to determine the sentence for the crime of calumny as three years of confinement.
 
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The Council of Europe is a confederation of States for some specific purposes. The States retain all their sovereignty but they oblige themselves to be bound by the final judgments of the ECHR. The Committee of Ministers is the group of all the Foreign Ministers of the CoE States.
Most of the States have followed their obligations with great fidelity.
There is a kind of diplomatic peer pressure placed on those States which do not follow ECHR judgments in good time.

I don't know why I thought of this, but before WWII at a prewar diplomatic conference, the Nazi Foreign Minister Ribbentrop said to Winston Churchill that if there was another war, the Italians would be on Germany's side. To which Churchill said: "that seems only fair, we had them last time!"...

Peer pressure is certainly working on Russia.
 
Yeah, the Italians will have to set aside the conviction based on the Article 6 violations using an appropriate mechanism - there is a form of habeas corpus in the constitution - art 13. Then, presumably, either they drop the case, or there's a re-trial without all the bits that led to the judgement of violations. But there will be so many violations - fair trial, equality of arms etc.

How could they run the case either without any DNA evidence or with the EDFs disclosed?

Just playing devil’s advocate; what do you think would happen if Italy stuck 2 diplomatic fingers up at your hypothetical scenario of what the ECHR will do?
 
I thought it was oil prices???

ECHR affecting the price of a barrel of oil? Good one, funny!

I think some other unforeseen force is affecting oil prices, cannot think who or what that could be.

Does Raffaele also have a slam-dunk case later this month?
 
ECHR affecting the price of a barrel of oil? Good one, funny!

I think some other unforeseen force is affecting oil prices, cannot think who or what that could be.

Oh, you mean the ECHR.

So, you think that Italy will act just like Russia?
 
Kauffer said:
Yeah, the Italians will have to set aside the conviction based on the Article 6 violations using an appropriate mechanism - there is a form of habeas corpus in the constitution - art 13. Then, presumably, either they drop the case, or there's a re-trial without all the bits that led to the judgement of violations. But there will be so many violations - fair trial, equality of arms etc.

How could they run the case either without any DNA evidence or with the EDFs disclosed?
Just playing devil’s advocate; what do you think would happen if Italy stuck 2 diplomatic fingers up at your hypothetical scenario of what the ECHR will do?

Holy cow - CoulsdonUK and I are on the same side of an issue! Can world peace be far behind!?

All of this is what is behind asking about the (non-existent) coercive measures available to any "European" level of accountability against Italy.

Once again - When Lawrencia "Bambi" Bembenek escaped a Wisconsin prison and fled to Canada, Wisconsin understandably petitioned Canada (through extradition treaty with the USA) for her judicious return.

Theoretically the process right there - heck, Wisconsin even almost borders Canada. Shouldn't Canada just drop her off at the Pigeon River Park border crossing, and have some Minnesotan cop drive her to Milwaukee? Isn't that the legalism which will be mechanically abided by all!? ("Look! Look! It says so in the treaty!")

Canada said, "not so fast", and promptly interfered in some other state's business, in a manner not explicitly spelled out in the treaty, which was bound to get the Milwaukee D.A. to exclaim, "Why don't those crazy Canuckeheads just mind their own business!?"

Bembenek had been a Milwaukee cop convicted of the murder of Christine Schultz, who was killed in 1981.

Wikipedia said:
Bembenek, however, sought refugee status in Canada, claiming that she was being persecuted by a conspiracy between the police department and the judicial system in Wisconsin. The Canadian government showed some sympathy for her case, and before returning her to Wisconsin, obtained a commitment that Milwaukee officials would conduct a judicial review of her case. The review did not find evidence of crimes by police or prosecutors, but detailed seven major police blunders which had occurred during the Christine Schultz murder investigation, and she won the right to a new trial.​

The point being.... even when there is a formal treaty, this stuff between nations is tenuous at best. Even with treaty obligations, one country can exercise its essential sovereignty by saying....

..... well, as CoulsdonUK says.

In the Bembenek case, the ONLY leverage Canada had to make demands on the Soveriegn State of Wisconsin was that Canada had the person in question - and barring intervention from American SEAL Team 6, was likely to stay there unless Wisconsin played ball.

Everyone here is overvaluing the efficacy of international treaties - even the ECHR stuff. There is probably political dickering going on about this right now because, afterall......

...... this case has never been about evidence in a courtroom. Heck, if you believe Oggi, even Hellmann didn't want to accuse police of a crime.....
 
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As far as politics, the US also does not want to leave an internal impression that they will protect soldiers but will abandon innocent American college student. This is why, I think in the end, the US will find excuses to avoid her extradition.
 
As far as politics, the US also does not want to leave an internal impression that they will protect soldiers but will abandon innocent American college student. This is why, I think in the end, the US will find excuses to avoid her extradition.

The Italian courts are handing the USA those "excuses" on a platter.
 
The following is an excerpt from the deposition of a defense consultant on false memory syndromes. See highlighted part below.

My contention is that if the Hellmann court motivation did not analyze this consultant's testimony or report, then finding Amanda Knox guilty of calunnia was an arbitrary judicial decision.

Google Translation (Original on IIP in Italian)

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/2009-09-25_Itl.pdf

SITTING ON 25/09/2009 Aula Assizes - Massei Court

DEPOSITION OF CONSULTANT - CALTAGIRONE CARLO

CONSULTANT - I am Carlo Caltagirone, a neurologist and have come called precisely to report on the basis of my knowledge of and facts of the matter as I will later, born 21 October 1948 in Catania.

Yes, I am indeed a doctor specializing in neurology and psychiatry and is a university professor, teach neurology at the Medical Faculty of the University Rome Tor Vergata and are currently scientific director of a research institute that is an institution of recovery and care science that is the foundation of Saint Lucia, I hold this position for a few years and I am in that context clinical activities, research activities connected with the with cognitive function in their normal course and possible amendments, changes which result in facts or functional diseases of the brain.

LAWYER DALLA VEDOVA - Here, but are instead the assignment that has had by this defense, we have it in charge from the start of this process so since December last year, this Defense has had the need to have its part a technical advice on medical and scientific topics that are important in this process, our assisted Amanda Knox in particular has had a series of episodes where we Defense and now we would like you presented the topic from the scientific point of view and then obviously applied to the case in relation to the problem memory, the problem of memories, the possibility of have false memories and of course then expanded to speeches suggestion for both subjective elements that elements objective that can be compared to this contour, then I would ask first of all what kind of business you have done since he took the job, what kind of documents and that type of activity conducted within this advisory.
 
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Holy cow - CoulsdonUK and I are on the same side of an issue! Can world peace be far behind!?

All of this is what is behind asking about the (non-existent) coercive measures available to any "European" level of accountability against Italy.

Once again - When Lawrencia "Bambi" Bembenek escaped a Wisconsin prison and fled to Canada, Wisconsin understandably petitioned Canada (through extradition treaty with the USA) for her judicious return.

Theoretically the process right there - heck, Wisconsin even almost borders Canada. Shouldn't Canada just drop her off at the Pigeon River Park border crossing, and have some Minnesotan cop drive her to Milwaukee? Isn't that the legalism which will be mechanically abided by all!? ("Look! Look! It says so in the treaty!")

Canada said, "not so fast", and promptly interfered in some other state's business, in a manner not explicitly spelled out in the treaty, which was bound to get the Milwaukee D.A. to exclaim, "Why don't those crazy Canuckeheads just mind their own business!?"

Bembenek had been a Milwaukee cop convicted of the murder of Christine Schultz, who was killed in 1981.

​

The point being.... even when there is a formal treaty, this stuff between nations is tenuous at best. Even with treaty obligations, one country can exercise its essential sovereignty by saying....

..... well, as CoulsdonUK says.

In the Bembenek case, the ONLY leverage Canada had to make demands on the Soveriegn State of Wisconsin was that Canada had the person in question - and barring intervention from American SEAL Team 6, was likely to stay there unless Wisconsin played ball.

Everyone here is overvaluing the efficacy of international treaties - even the ECHR stuff. There is probably political dickering going on about this right now because, afterall......

...... this case has never been about evidence in a courtroom. Heck, if you believe Oggi, even Hellmann didn't want to accuse police of a crime.....

Italy's sovereignty is not in question. They have treaty obligations that's all. Also those obligations are ultimately not a matter judiciaries are accountable for. Italy will stick two fingers up to it's own judiciary if necessary.

In the example you gave, I see no evidence that Canada operated outside the terms of it's obligations to the US. Indeed the law in Canada would have provided certain rights to a potentially extraditable prisoner and the opportunity to contest extradition on specific grounds, although one would hardly have expected the Mikwaukee DA to have seen the big picture. As it turned out Bembenek went back with a new trial guarantee (but pleaded no contest).

In any case the relationship the Italians have with the ECHR through the CofM is somewhat different than the extradition arrangements between states. The problem with this case is not the government of Italy, it is the Italian judiciary. Any notion that Italy will not comply with the judgement of the ECHR in this case is not really credible.
 
Italy's sovereignty is not in question. They have treaty obligations that's all. Also those obligations are ultimately not a matter judiciaries are accountable for. Italy will stick two fingers up to it's own judiciary if necessary.

In the example you gave, I see no evidence that Canada operated outside the terms of it's obligations to the US. Indeed the law in Canada would have provided certain rights to a potentially extraditable prisoner and the opportunity to contest extradition on specific grounds, although one would hardly have expected the Mikwaukee DA to have seen the big picture. As it turned out Bembenek went back with a new trial guarantee (but pleaded no contest).

In any case the relationship the Italians have with the ECHR through the CofM is somewhat different than the extradition arrangements between states. The problem with this case is not the government of Italy, it is the Italian judiciary. Any notion that Italy will not comply with the judgement of the ECHR in this case is not really credible.

The point is that absent some coercive end-game to force compliance, there is no such thing, really, as either inside or outside obligations.
 
The point is that absent some coercive end-game to force compliance, there is no such thing, really, as either inside or outside obligations.

I can't agree with this. Countries voluntarily enter into arrangenents and take on obligations. Coercion is really not going to be necessary. These are agreements. When countries fail to keep to their international agreed obligations, you move closer to war. In Europe, we're rather keen, mostly, to avoid that.
 
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