Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[cullennz]

Im going to get vilified for this, but hundreds of teens kill themselves every week.

For various reasons. Broken relationships, useless parents, friend pressure, being gay

What makes this one special?

 

[Arcade22]

What an extremely selfish act. I hope he (or she) is not made into some kind of martyr. Other kids will not follow her lead and ruin other families.

Yeah lets focus on the important things here: not making your parents sad because you were so incredibly depressed that you decided to kill yourself. I mean that's just selfish and that's like really really bad.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I'm having a hard time seeing how a heterosexual Christian takes it upon themselves to terrorize a gay couple in order to split them apart, is at all comparable to transwoman who goes about her day-to-day life causing no harm or grief to anyone.

In both examples someone was making a unilateral decision to screw around with someone else's life choices and sexual existence because they decided they knew better and that the other person's desires could be ignored because they didn't agree with the basis of them.

Knowing your partner's intimate thoughts and feelings would certainly help you make an informed decision about whether you commit to them, but I doubt you'd say this gives you a right to snoop through their private diaries and emails. That must mean your right to know is balanced against another person's right to privacy.

Someone having been born male when they're representing themselves as a female or vice versa is a pretty big thing. It's a very unusual thing, and wouldn't you agree that the majority of people, both men and women, who are straight and your average sort of person... would not knowingly enter into a relationship with someone if they knew that about them?

That is undeniable, I think. If you could poll every straight male in the US for instance, and ask them whether they would have a sexual relationship with a woman who was born male and had their penis surgically removed... what percentage do you think would say "no"? I'm thinking the percentage would be in the high 90's. I think such a widely and strongly held desire cannot be easily dismissed or treated as trivial.

As for the sorts of things a person would be likely to discover in someone else's diary? Well, you'd have much lower percentages saying categorically "no" for that sort of thing. Most of what would be revealed in there is that the person has had a lot of drama and trauma in their life, might be more clingy/obsessive/stalkery than they appear... maybe has had more sex partners than you realized... etc.

I think it's much easier to categorize that sort of stuff as "normal expected variation among people in our modern age, that's life" than someone being born one gender and having serious surgery, hormone treatments, etc. to change that gender. Again, that's a pretty unusual and extreme thing far outside the experience of most people who are out dating, and far outside what they expect as a possible experience while doing so.

You definitely need to know whether your partner has an STDs, for your own safety and the safety of future partners. You need to know whether your partner has food allergies before you cook for them, for their own safety. You need to know about one another's fertility if you want to start a family.

Well the problem is that it's quite common for people to get pretty far into a relationship without the subject of kids ever coming up. These days, people will have been together, intimate, and deeply intertwined in their lives (living together, etc.) for a long period before any discussion of kids ever comes up, in many many cases. It may be that neither partner had even given it any thought, but as they age and start to feel "this is the person I want to be with for the rest of my life" a natural outgrowth of those life developments can be that they start thinking they'd like to start a family with that person.

So the problem with how you're framing this is that you cannot know whether the person will need that information from the point of view of starting a family. Even if they say to you that they don't ever want to have kids, it may just be youth talking and they may change their tune dramatically later on that point. It happens plenty often that someone talks a big game about "I never want to have kids" but finds that as their biological clock is ticking and as they start to get older, they feel differently.

This is why I think people have to be made aware of such an important matter (whether their partner can be a reproductive mate, which is the default assumption) or not. That's pretty huge. If someone is sterile and knows it, or if someone isn't a born female or male and knows it, I think they're obligated to inform any potential partner before any physical intimacy takes place. That's my view.

But you don't need to know everything. You don't need to know whether your partner has ever had cosmetic surgery, if they used to be fat, used to be anorexic, if they've ever taken ecstasy, ever had a same-sex partner, whether they are a virgin, whether they were ever raped, whether they have Jewish ancestry, whether they have Kleinfelter syndrome, or a complete insensitivity to androgens.

I know it's important to a lot of Jewish people to have Jewish children with a Jewish partner. It's often even more important to them that their children find a Jewish partner. They're a small ethnic group and they're interested in survival, so I think that's understandable but I would think it was understandable even if they were the largest group on the planet. It's their right to value their genetics and wish to keep their family consistent and connected in that way across the generations.

That's a right I would say extends to anyone from any group. If it's important to them, I don't think it matters if we as onlookers agree that it should be important to them, or if we think or don't think that they have good reasons for finding it important. It's their life, and to the extent reasonably possible, I would think we'd want to be a society that honors peoples' deeply held beliefs and choices.

 

[cullennz]

Meanwhile Stuie kills hinself and no one cares because he has no odd back story

 

[Caper]

Yeah lets focus on the important things here: not making your parents sad because you were so incredibly depressed that you decided to kill yourself. I mean that's just selfish and that's like really really bad.

Ran into traffic. Tramitizes some poor driver for life. Their last act was an extremely self-centered one. And that's how they should be remembered.

 

[cullennz]

Agree

Selfish

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm not an expert, but I believe it has to do with a disconnect between a person's physical anatomy and their brain chemistry/hormone levels, or between primary and secondary sex characteristics. It is possible for a person to be born with the anatomy of a male but the brain of a female, probably due to abnormalities in gene expression during development which would affect the things I mentioned. At any rate, the answer to your question would be "biology".

I'm also not sure how gender identity is affected by something like Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY).

Not sure what you mean by "involved", but if it helps answer your question at all: I would consider myself deeply invested in the issues affecting transgender youth. I help organize a youth group for transgender teens and young adults, and have been public speaking on issues affecting transgender youth since 2011.


Cisgender people are those whose gender identity and expression conforms to the social expectations of their biologically-designated sex.

Transgender people are those whose gender identity or expression does not conform unambiguously to the social expectations of their biologically-designated sex.

For example, someone is biologically female, but has a gender identity and expression typical for a man, would generally be considered transgender.


Perhaps a bit of both.

No one knows.


And if someone does know, point me to a scientific paper that has the answers. It has been a handful of years since I looked it up, but at that time all known biological indicators of a female to male trans were female, and similarly for males.

We don't know much about the brain, to say whether or not they have "female brains" or "male brains".

Thanks for these replies. Does this mean there is something essentially 'female' and something essentially 'male'? I mean personality-wise (or maybe it's deeper than that). Presumably, people who undergo sex change ops were transgender beforehand (to state the bleedin' obvious). I find the whole question of whether there are real differences between the sexes, and if so what, fascinating.

Dessi, yes, you would indeed appear to be involved in the sense I meant and for good reason. I thought I detected synthetic levels of concern in some posts, but maybe I'm the only heartless bastard around here.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Ran into traffic. Tramitizes some poor driver for life. Their last act was an extremely self-centered one. And that's how they should be remembered.

Couldn't you also easily cause the deaths of others if they swerved into the car(s) next to them to try to avoid you, or rolled over, or any number of other unpredictable things that can happen with large, heavy, fast-moving metal objects with delicate organic beings inside them?

 

[shuttlt]

This looks like being a bit of a detail. My 2 cents is that ones original gender, within a relationship, simultaneously can't be of such minor importance that there is no reason to mention it and simultaneously something that the deceived partner is going to hit the roof over and possibly physically assault you. Its bit that straight couples don't have such secrets, but I don't think they are good things, or minor things.

If this happened to me, I'd feel deceived and used. Where's the trust?

 

[cullennz]

Skeptic

How is this relevant?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Skeptic

How is this relevant?

Are you talking to me? If so, how is what relevant?

 

[Dessi]

I'm having a hard time seeing how a heterosexual Christian takes it upon themselves to terrorize a gay couple in order to split them apart, is at all comparable to transwoman who goes about her day-to-day life causing no harm or grief to anyone.

In both examples someone was making a unilateral decision to screw around with someone else's life choices and sexual existence because they decided they knew better and that the other person's desires could be ignored because they didn't agree with the basis of them.

Still not seeing what makes these two comparable. Heterosexual Christian has an irrational prejudice which causes real tangible harm to other people; transwoman is rationally self-interested in preserving a stable relationship, and does so in the least harmful manner possible.

I can promise you that "screwing around with someone else's life choices and sexual existence" is not a motive which remotely factors into a transwoman's decision to go stealth.

Someone having been born male when they're representing themselves as a female or vice versa is a pretty big thing.

Is it? I've been working with trans youth for a long time. Transitioning requires a significant investment of time and money. But it's a very private event. It affects the trans person and, to a considerably lesser extent, their close friends and family.

One person's transition is not a "big thing" to anyone else. The only demand placed on strangers to accommodate another's transition is politeness and courtesy. Most trans people go about their days being completely invisible and unobtrusive.

It's a very unusual thing, and wouldn't you agree that the majority of people, both men and women, who are straight and your average sort of person... would not knowingly enter into a relationship with someone if they knew that about them?

That is undeniable, I think. If you could poll every straight male in the US for instance, and ask them whether they would have a sexual relationship with a woman who was born male and had their penis surgically removed... what percentage do you think would say "no"? I'm thinking the percentage would be in the high 90's.

Yes, you will get percentages in the high 90s with a carelessly worded polling question like that.

I think such a widely and strongly held desire cannot be easily dismissed or treated as trivial.

I wouldn't treat that desire as trivial given the number of men who can and have murdered their partners after learning they were trans. But I think that's driven more by anti-gay/anti-trans prejudice, not so much grounded in a preference for child-bearing partners.

A lot of men have anxiety that they might be attracted to transgender woman, even those are are post-op and conventionally attractive. I don't know what this anxiety is based on, but I can can bet it isn't anything rational.

If some woman were desirable as a romantic or sexual partner, why would learning that she is trans make her less desirable?

This is why I think people have to be made aware of such an important matter (whether their partner can be a reproductive mate, which is the default assumption) or not. That's pretty huge. If someone is sterile and knows it, or if someone isn't a born female or male and knows it, I think they're obligated to inform any potential partner before any physical intimacy takes place. That's my view.

Would it be acceptable for a transwoman to say that she is sterile, instead of outing herself as trans?

I would think we'd want to be a society that honors peoples' deeply held beliefs and choices.

Sure, why not. But some people's preferences are quite petty and unimportant. I personally prefer women long hair to short hair, but I doubt I would accuse a woman who piqued my interest of "screwing around with my life choices and sexual existence" because she didn't tell me up-front that she wears a wig to cover her alopecia.

 

[cullennz]

They decided to selfishly ruin some drivers life by walking in front of their car Skeptic

 

[Dessi]

This looks like being a bit of a detail. My 2 cents is that ones original gender, within a relationship, simultaneously can't be of such minor importance that there is no reason to mention it and simultaneously something that the deceived partner is going to hit the roof over and possibly physically assault you. Its bit that straight couples don't have such secrets, but I don't think they are good things, or minor things.

If this happened to me, I'd feel deceived and used. Where's the trust?

I struggle to capture in words just how bigoted and uncritical your view is which presumes that trans people necessarily "deceive and use" their partners.

Have you considered some of the reasons why trans people may decide to go stealth? To divorce themselves from their pre-transition history, to avoid being ostracized by their church, to avoid the drawing out other's anti-trans prejudice and unwanted scrutiny, don't want to field the endless uncomfortable questions about their genitals, preferring not to re-live exceptionally uncomfortable experience of outing one's self over and over, among many other reasons.

Lying and using others is virtually never a factor in someone's decision go stealth.

 

[marplots]

Meanwhile Stuie kills hinself and no one cares because he has no odd back story

Yeah, but did you get the part where it was a boy pretending to be a girl?

 

[Arcade22]

They decided to selfishly ruin some drivers life by walking in front of their car Skeptic

Really? Did you contact the driver and ask them about how they feel or are you just making assumptions?

 

[Mudcat]

I find it interesting that they believe their son is in Heaven.

I do, too, considering that conservative Christians believe that suicides go to Hell. But I think you nailed it when you stated that logical consistency isn't the strong suit of religionists.

What's transgender anyway? Is it biology or psychology?

I'm no expert on the subject, but I think neither. It's sociological.

In the current society, there's a lot of pressure for boys and girls to develop interests in certain interests and play styles. And with children being as cruel as they are and parents trying to raise children "The only way they know how" and in "Their best interests" it can cause a certain amount of confusion in people who develop interests in things outside what's assigned their gender.

In extreme cases it can cause people to feel like they were born the 'wrong gender', which is a fallacy because there is no right gender to begin with.

 

[anglolawyer]

I do, too, considering that conservative Christians believe that suicides go to Hell. But I think you nailed it when you stated that logical consistency isn't the strong suit of religionists.



I'm no expert on the subject, but I think neither. It's sociological.

In the current society, there's a lot of pressure for boys and girls to develop interests in certain interests and play styles. And with children being as cruel as they are and parents trying to raise children "The only way they know how" and in "Their best interests" it can cause a certain amount of confusion in people who develop interests in things outside what's assigned their gender.

In extreme cases it can cause people to feel like they were born the 'wrong gender', which is a fallacy because there is no right gender to begin with.

What would happen if we raised a bunch of people from birth without exposing them to anything which might suggest there was any difference between the sexes (other than the physical) assuming such an experiment could be designed? We would need at least three groups: an all-male, an all-female and a mixed group. I suspect the mixed group would soon divide along the sex boundary at some, possibly quite early, point and then we wouldn't be able to tell whether ensuing differences resulted from the schism or from nature. We could jumble them all up at age 16 and see what happens

 

[Dessi]

Yeah, but did you get the part where it was a boy pretending to be a girl?

People are assigned a sex and experience their gender. Sometimes people's day-to-day gender experience does not conform unambiguously with the expectations of their sex assigned at birth, which can be a source of anxiety and distress. This was the case with Leelah.

"Boy pretending to be a girl" is the sort of dangerously uncritical view which kills people. It is neither accurate nor a useful depiction of trans people's experiences or motivations.

 

[LorenzoValla]

How do you separate them, especially when what they're expressing is their belief?

The same way you can separate a nation from some of the leaders you might not like. The nation and the leaders aren't the same thing.