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Continuation Part 12: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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"Supposed to be", is the operative term here. There isn't a judge who brings down a judgement who doesn't fully believe that he/she has fully complied with the constitution or the ECHR convention.

The point is that unless some sort of appeals' level above that judge is informed of which item of the convention is violated, one cannot assume that that upper level has investigated.

Isn't it that unless informed by one party or another of a specific constitutional/convention transgression, that the higher level simply assumes all is well on all points? Does the ECHR, for instance, have an independent investigative arm apart from the parties to the dispute? I do not believe so.

You are right. I am not a lawyer. I assume if you wish to appeal that a lower court decision had breached human rights, then you would need to specify that. Certainly in England one could specifically appeal on that basis and pursue that up the appeals process to what used to be called the House of Lords and now is more mundanely called the supreme court (another thing to blame on Tony Blair who seems to lack a sense of romance and tradition). Only following a loss at the supreme court would one go to Europe. I do not know what the appeal process is in Italy.

I should really learn not to comment on the law as I really do not understand it.
 
You are right. I am not a lawyer. I assume if you wish to appeal that a lower court decision had breached human rights, then you would need to specify that. Certainly in England one could specifically appeal on that basis and pursue that up the appeals process to what used to be called the House of Lords and now is more mundanely called the supreme court (another thing to blame on Tony Blair who seems to lack a sense of romance and tradition). Only following a loss at the supreme court would one go to Europe. I do not know what the appeal process is in Italy.

I should really learn not to comment on the law as I really do not understand it.

Neither am I a lawyer, far from it. And if we don't comment how will either of us learn?
 
Look at this: Even silly Hugo's got a partial grip of the ECHR. He's actually managed to spot a rights violation! He hasn't worked out the consequences yet, but he's got a bit of time.


"But the Groupies seem to be making a category error. The ECtHR likes to see the right to counsel recognised 'from the outset of police questioning,' so they might find that Knox should have been cautioned and afforded counsel once Sollecito withdrew her alibi, but it would be one of those technical and inconsequential rulings ('Here's 10,000 euros for your lawyers, now go away'), since police correctly suspended the interview when Knox incriminated herself, the statement was never useable on the substantive murder charge and it's not possible to blame anyone but Knox for the calunnia. On the stand, she conceded that police did not put the calunnia in her mouth, it was her own idea. She had a good, innocent answer to police questions about the text message, but she chose to tell a malicious lie instead. That's all there is about that, surely."
 
Look at this: Even silly Hugo's got a partial grip of the ECHR. He's actually managed to spot a rights violation! He hasn't worked out the consequences yet, but he's got a bit of time.


"But the Groupies seem to be making a category error. The ECtHR likes to see the right to counsel recognised 'from the outset of police questioning,' so they might find that Knox should have been cautioned and afforded counsel once Sollecito withdrew her alibi, but it would be one of those technical and inconsequential rulings ('Here's 10,000 euros for your lawyers, now go away'), since police correctly suspended the interview when Knox incriminated herself, the statement was never useable on the substantive murder charge and it's not possible to blame anyone but Knox for the calunnia. On the stand, she conceded that police did not put the calunnia in her mouth, it was her own idea. She had a good, innocent answer to police questions about the text message, but she chose to tell a malicious lie instead. That's all there is about that, surely."

There seems a misunderstanding, unless the ECtHR is very different than US courts, if the courts find a violation of aspect of law it does not matter if they are guilty or not, the conviction is basically discarded.
 
stabbing versus cutting with respect to the knife

Mach and others sometimes try to defend Stefanoni we are warned we may be subject to defamation proceedings. Stefanoni states that the location of the DNA of the knife ex Sollecito means that she held it in a way that you would if stabbing someone. Nencini has extended this expert opinion to conclude that Knox struck the fatal wound.

Stefanoni has gone beyond any reasonable expert interpretation of evidence. There is no literature to support that there is a unique pattern of DNA associated with stabbing a human with a knife versus routine kitchen duties. Whilst I hesitate to say she lied, as she may have believed this, to state this as an expert opinion betrays bias and incompetence.

If she had been impartial as she was supposed to be and competent as she was supposed to be she would have said that the DNA of Knox cannot relate to the use of the knife in the murder of MK (if it was), as any cleaning that removed the copious amounts of DNA and blood there would have been on the knife from the victim (remember all traces of blood were absent), would certainly have removed the lesser amounts of DNA of the wielder.

I reiterate this as it is an excellent example of the bias and incompetence of Stefanoni and the failure of logical thought by Nencini. I wonder if any pro guilt proponents would care to dispute this?
Planigale,

Some of the best passages of Peter Gill's book are the one's in which he takes apart these two forensic fallacies with surgical precision. He shows how such hypotheses could be falsified through experimentation. Maybe Machiavelli thinks he should be sued for defamation as well.
 
Planigale,

Some of the best passages of Peter Gill's book are the one's in which he takes apart these two forensic fallacies with surgical precision. He shows how such hypotheses could be falsified through experimentation. Maybe Machiavelli thinks he should be sued for defamation as well.

Have you ever read the negative reviews of "Misleading DNA Evidence: Reasons for Miscarriages of Justice" on Amazon?
 
Amazon

Have you ever read the negative reviews of "Misleading DNA Evidence: Reasons for Miscarriages of Justice" on Amazon?
I provided one of the positive reviews. Then I had to wade through pages of ad homs directed at me and decided that my time was better spent writing about the DNA evidence in the Gary Leiterman and Duke lacrosse cases. Anything in particular I should look for if I go back? Amazon occasionally has excellent reviews that are better than the one's written professionally (for example, see one review of William Cohan's The Price of Silence, which is also about the DL case). Amazon can also be the home of food fights of little consequence.
 
Kauffer said:
Look at this: Even silly Hugo's got a partial grip of the ECHR. He's actually managed to spot a rights violation! He hasn't worked out the consequences yet, but he's got a bit of time.


"But the Groupies seem to be making a category error. The ECtHR likes to see the right to counsel recognised 'from the outset of police questioning,' so they might find that Knox should have been cautioned and afforded counsel once Sollecito withdrew her alibi, but it would be one of those technical and inconsequential rulings ('Here's 10,000 euros for your lawyers, now go away'), since police correctly suspended the interview when Knox incriminated herself, the statement was never useable on the substantive murder charge and it's not possible to blame anyone but Knox for the calunnia. On the stand, she conceded that police did not put the calunnia in her mouth, it was her own idea. She had a good, innocent answer to police questions about the text message, but she chose to tell a malicious lie instead. That's all there is about that, surely."

There seems a misunderstanding, unless the ECtHR is very different than US courts, if the courts find a violation of aspect of law it does not matter if they are guilty or not, the conviction is basically discarded.

So - is Hugo maintaining that the remedy for this rights violation is an award of cash?

...and what is now being argued is that police actually did not suspend the "interview" once Knox incriminated herself, Mignini in his CNN interview concedes that they kept going. The thing that supposedly gets Mignini off the hook is this claim that he acted as if only a notary during that period.

You know, one day the penny is going to drop for the likes of Hugo.
 
Look at this: Even silly Hugo's got a partial grip of the ECHR. He's actually managed to spot a rights violation! He hasn't worked out the consequences yet, but he's got a bit of time.


"But the Groupies seem to be making a category error. The ECtHR likes to see the right to counsel recognised 'from the outset of police questioning,' so they might find that Knox should have been cautioned and afforded counsel once Sollecito withdrew her alibi, but it would be one of those technical and inconsequential rulings ('Here's 10,000 euros for your lawyers, now go away'), since police correctly suspended the interview when Knox incriminated herself, the statement was never useable on the substantive murder charge and it's not possible to blame anyone but Knox for the calunnia. On the stand, she conceded that police did not put the calunnia in her mouth, it was her own idea. She had a good, innocent answer to police questions about the text message, but she chose to tell a malicious lie instead. That's all there is about that, surely."

His last sentence sounds like whistling past the graveyard. Or Forrest Gump.
 
Wow, we're on V12 of the thread about twice convicted murderer Amanda Knox.

Is she still guilty? <Checks Google.....> Yep!

Nope, innocent, it's not even close. They even caught the guy who did it, a guy who hung out with Meredith's boyfriend. They just decided to pretend two of the ones they arrested in the beginning were still involved, despite the fact everything they were arrested for was indisputably nonsense.

Don't worry though, it will be out of Italy's hands soon, the grownups will get to weigh in.
 
a preemptive strike against an alibi witness

Yes. I think that's what happened. The Nov. 5/6 interrogation was an ambush by the police. Why did the police do it? The Italian police working on a case must follow the general direction of the prosecutor; in this case PM Mignini.

To my thinking, the whole point of the police exercise of Nov. 5/6 was to obtain or manufacture "reasonable suspicion" (or the appearance of the same) in order to arrest Amanda Knox, and with her Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba. And why?
Numbers,

I am coming around to the belief that Raffaele was initially arrested to neutralize him as an alibi witness for Amanda. From what I can gather, this is a known prosecutorial tactic. At some point, the rationale morphed--into what is a matter for speculation.
 
Numbers,

I am coming around to the belief that Raffaele was initially arrested to neutralize him as an alibi witness for Amanda. From what I can gather, this is a known prosecutorial tactic. At some point, the rationale morphed--into what is a matter for speculation.

FWIW the clue may be in the differences between the 1.45 and 5.45 'confessions'. The first exonerated Raffaele completely while the second implicated him. The second statement is an improved version of the first which likely features Mignini's handiwork. I have posted about these differences before. When they arrived the theory was that Patrick committed the crime after Amanda let him in. Raffaele was probably lobbed in for the reason you give.
 
Numbers,

I am coming around to the belief that Raffaele was initially arrested to neutralize him as an alibi witness for Amanda. From what I can gather, this is a known prosecutorial tactic. At some point, the rationale morphed--into what is a matter for speculation.

My thinking on trying to explain this, is that its really like following Mignini down his satanic rabbit hole.

The capacity of Mignini to first concoct improbable scenarios, and then pursue them beyond all reason, even when confronted by flatly contradictory evidence, is not the workings of a rational mind set.

Mignini's famous theory of a 'double body swap', was in reaction to the falsification of his theory that a body had been swapped in the first place.

But its not just that Mignini can't accept that his theory is wrong, its that he goes further and concludes that anyone who disputes him, does so because they themselves are part of the criminal enterprise he is chasing. And he then charges them as criminals.

It's most shocking that he hasn't been called out on this.
 
Certainly the CSC said that all the evidence ('uniform and global') should be evaluated in the re-do second level trial, and a conclusion drawn from re-evaluating all the evidence, and particularly asked for additional examination of the knife. {1} Reading the cited cases from ECHR, they do suggest that in this case all the testimony should be re-heard as if de novo including an opportunity to question witnesses (including expert testimony). Nencini probably made a procedural error in not running the case as if it was a second level trial de novo on the murder etc. charges. (This may have been acceptable in Italian jurisprudence, but probably not according to ECHR rulings). {2} Given that the callunia charge had been finalised, the evidence on this should probably not have been represented, the civil party to this excluded. This really did seem to be double jeopardy in an inappropriate fashion. Knox had been tried and convicted of callunia by Hellman, and the conviction confirmed, then gets retried and the penalty increased. I wonder if the ECHR will consider this? {3} Alternatively since this case actually seems on-going and presumably the ISC will have to confirm the penalty from Nencini this may mean Italy could claim that the case is on-going so not eligible for ECHR. {4} I think that if a claim is made to ECHR in due course on murder the failure to re hear the case including opportunity to re-question all witneesses will be one of the grounds.

{Highlighting and numbering added to quote.}

You have brought up some important points. Some comments on them:

1. This is an extremely important point for cases before the ECtHR. In the case-law, ECtHR has stated that a conviction after an acquittal on the same evidence requires that the convicting court conduct a full trial, examining all witnesses and evidence and must be well-reasoned. Otherwise, the conviction is viewed by ECtHR as an arbitrary ruling.

2. There are really two differing calunnia charges.

The Hellmann court convicted Amanda Knox, with CSC confirmation, of a charge of (simple) calunnia. This apparently {and approximately} is a charge that one has made a false accusation against someone to the police but without any intent to benefit one's self by the charge [or without malicious intent]. The theory here is that the accusation was made by Amanda Knox to relieve the pressure of the police interrogation, and not for a malicious purpose.

The Nencini court has provisionally convicted Amanda Knox of aggravated calunnia. This is {approximately} a charge that one has made a false accustion against someone to the police with the intent to benefit one's self by the charge [and with a malicious intent]. The theory here is that the accusation against Patrick Lumumba was in furtherance of protecting Amanda Knox and others from police suspicion of being involved in the murder/rape of Meredith Kercher.

Amanda Knox's application to the ECtHR can only be for the finalized charge of (simple) calunnia, because the Convention allows only cases that have exhausted all domestic remedies to be heard by the ECtHR. The Nencini judgments have not yet been reviewed by the CSC, but the review will possibly begin with the hearing of the appeals of the Nencini verdict by CSC scheduled to begin March 25, 2015.

I am assuming the primary question that ECtHR would face is whether a person in Italy can by Convention standards of fairness be convicted of calunnia, a verbalization and not an action, when the calunnia is the product of an interrogation, alleged to be coercive, without the presence of a lawyer for the subject. The alleged crime of verbalization and the incriminating statement are identical and the only evidence for the calunnia conviction. In case-law, ECHR has held that a suspect's lawyer must ordinarily be present from the first questioning of a suspect by police, and that a conviction that relies on any statement from a suspect interrogated without a lawyer is (except under certain circumstances, as discussed in Ibrahim et al. v the UK) unfair.

3. Italy may claim the calunnia case is ungoing and therefore Amanda Knox's application on that conviction is inadmissible. I do not believe that the ECtHR would accept that argument, since there are two separate calunnia charges as pointed out in #2 above. And the CSC has finalized a conviction on one. Thus, an Italian counterclaim that the calunnia case was ungoing would contradict Italy's own final judgment and indicate that Italy was pursuing double jeopardy for calunnia, and DJ is not allowed under the Convention.

4. This may be covered in #1 above.
 
Her own failure to endorse the theory wholeheartedly is the main problem. It's just that, tantalisingly, she has said several times that she was shown his message. Another such instance cropped up in the recording of her 18 Dec interrogation (IIRC).

This issue will be resolved when the Italian police produce the recording of the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation of Amanda Knox.
 
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This issue will be resolved when the Italian police produce the recording of the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation of Amanda Knox.

That would be very cool. However, I think I am with those who have suggested there is no tape. If I were a crooked prosecutor or bent cop I would not want there to be a potentially explosive tape.
 
FWIW the clue may be in the differences between the 1.45 and 5.45 'confessions'. The first exonerated Raffaele completely while the second implicated him. The second statement is an improved version of the first which likely features Mignini's handiwork. I have posted about these differences before. When they arrived the theory was that Patrick committed the crime after Amanda let him in. Raffaele was probably lobbed in for the reason you give.

It would be worth it to post that detailed difference between the two memorials. It's not just that Mignini corrects the mistranslation of "See you later" (while drawing the same inference), or that Raffaele appears in the second but not the first..... still in an unknown capacity. .....

Your compare and contrast shows why it is the PLE fine tuning what they think is the crime as the night progressed, and why it could not be a result of AK being cleverly evasive.

That one is a keeper.
 
"Supposed to be", is the operative term here. {1} There isn't a judge who brings down a judgement who doesn't fully believe that he/she has fully complied with the constitution or the ECHR convention.
{2} The point is that unless some sort of appeals' level above that judge is informed of which item of the convention is violated, one cannot assume that that upper level has investigated. Isn't it that unless informed by one party or another of a specific constitutional/convention transgression, that the higher level simply assumes all is well on all points? Does the ECHR, for instance, have an independent investigative arm apart from the parties to the dispute? I do not believe so.[/Qt UOTE]

{Highlighting and numbering added to quote.}

1. I believe, based on the Knox-Sollecito case, that some Italian judges have either never heard of the Italian Constitution or the European Convention of Human Rights, or they do not believe that those documents apply to the cases they hear. Said judges are merely an extension of the prosecution. They are following mainly traditional inquisitorial judical practices.

2. Yes. It is like reporting a crime to police. The higher level court may not be aware (at least not officially) of the allegations of violations unless it is notified.

Courts generally must rely on a dispute brought before them, they do not investigate on their own authority; this is how the system of governance has evolved. Executive and legislative branches may investigate on their own authority.
 
That would be very cool. However, I think I am with those who have suggested there is no tape. If I were a crooked prosecutor or bent cop I would not want there to be a potentially explosive tape.

If i were a crooked cop, I'd keep a copy as an insurance policy.
 
There seems a misunderstanding, unless the ECtHR is very different than US courts, if the courts find a violation of aspect of law it does not matter if they are guilty or not, the conviction is basically discarded.

Yes. The confusion here in part is because of the supranational nature of the ECtHR, it does not act as an appeal court and does not directly overturn domestic State verdicts. Instead, it finds the trial unfair and recommends (typically) that a new trial or rehearing be held if requested by the applicant. But the operative part (arranging a retrial or rehearing) is actually the responsibility of the respondent State under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.
 
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