Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

logger said:
Torturers, and those who support them, bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.



BS

They are hero's and have kept my country safe. I'm standing while I salute them.

What brings shame is cowardly liberals, they are the same ones who hold our incredible military in contempt.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd recognize the quote. Though I'm surprised you think George Washington was a "cowardly liberal." Wait, no, not surprised - the other thing. Completely unsurprised.

Allow me:

General George Washington said:
Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.
 
Yeah, I didn't think you'd recognize the quote. Though I'm surprised you think George Washington was a "cowardly liberal." Wait, no, not surprised - the other thing. Completely unsurprised.

Allow me:

Yeah, what's going on today is just like 239 YEARS AGO, I'm sure George would be proud of you.

I'm confident if he had a tool like harmless waterboarding, he would have used it, accept only in secret, he didn't have the spineless libs we have today.
 
logger said:
Torturers, and those who support them, bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.


BS

They are hero's and have kept my country safe. I'm standing while I salute them.

What brings shame is cowardly liberals, they are the same ones who hold our incredible military in contempt.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd recognize the quote. Though I'm surprised you think George Washington was a "cowardly liberal." Wait, no, not surprised - the other thing. Completely unsurprised.

Allow me:

General George Washington said:
Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.

Yeah, what's going on today is just like 239 YEARS AGO, I'm sure George would be proud of you.

I'm confident if he had a tool like harmless waterboarding, he would have used it, accept only in secret, he didn't have the spineless libs we have today.


George Washington expressed himself clearly. Your confidence in your ability to read the mind of a man who died 215 years ago is not a good reason to disregard Washington's strongly worded contempt for the torture you advocate.

For context:

George Washington said:
....Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any Canadian or Indian, in his person or property, I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment, as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportionate to its guilt, at such a time and in such a cause.

But I hope and trust, that the brave men, who have voluntarily engaged in this expedition, will be governed by far different views; and that order, discipline, and regularity of behavior, will be as conspicuous as their valor. I also give it in charge to you to avoid all disrespect of the religion of the country, and its ceremonies. Prudence, policy, and a true Christian spirit, will lead us to look with compassion upon their errors without insulting them. While we are contending with our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the rights of conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to him only in this case they are answerable.

Upon the whole, Sir, I beg you to inculcate upon the officers and soldiers the necessity of preserving the strictest order during the march through Canada; to represent to them the shame, disgrace, and ruin to themselves and their country, if they should by their conduct turn the hearts of our brethren in Canada against us; and, on the other hand, the honors and rewards, which await them, if by their prudence and good behavior they conciliate the affections of the Canadians and Indians to the great interests of America, and convert those favorable dispositions they have shown into a lasting union and affection....
 
Waterboarding can cause permanent physical damage, and possibly death. Just because it doesn't leave any external marks doesn't mean it's harmless.

There is also serious psychological damage as well. But conservatives don't believe in psychology either.
 
Yeah, what's going on today is just like 239 YEARS AGO...


Torture didn't get any less awful in the intervening years. And, really, you're suggesting that a period in time when America was being birthed and built was less dire than our current "war" against fundamental Islamists? That's a pretty warped perspective.
 
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I typically don't make appeals to the Founding Fathers (or post three times in a row :p), but I know that conservatives tend to revere their opinions, so...

For example, during the U.S. Revolutionary War—with daily reports of heinous acts being committed by the British and their Hessian allies—John Adams wrote that despite being harrowed “beyond description [by the reports] . . . I know of no policy . . . but this—Piety, Humanity, and Honesty,” David Hackett Fischer cited in his book Washington’s Crossing. That came to be known by America’s Founding Fathers as the “Policy of Humanity.”

George Washington and other “American leaders believed that it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. . . . American leaders resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with respect for human rights, even of the enemy,” wrote Fischer.

Source: Opinion: John McCain, The Senate Torture Report and The Revolutionary War


So, logger... sunmaster14... What changed? What happened in the past two centuries that made it acceptable for America to break with the values and principles that were a part of its very fight for existence? Are we somehow under a significantly greater threat from radical Islam than we were during our fight for independence?

Or have we just gotten ethically lazy?
 
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Our soldiers constantly get tortured, It would be nice if everyone obeyed the laws of war. lol

This is why these things are supposed to be kept secret, its not supposed to be out in the open so libs can turn up their pious noses. But having libs in positions of seeing classified secrets is becoming quite the problem.

What you mean is that it would be nice if your enemies obeyed the laws of war. You don't mind at all that the USA doesn't obey international law, just as long as they keep it secret. It is, as previously pointed out a few times in this thread, just hypocritical.

The point is... in line with the theme of recent posts... that the USA in particular are rightly vocal and active in their promotion of global freedom and human rights. They are rightly vocal in their declarations that civilised society must hold itself to a higher standard than that of terrorist groups.

Torture is not holding yourself to a higher standard. It is an admission of barbarity.

The biggest problem with this CIA torture issue, IMO, is that the question of morality is to some degree being lost in the politics.

There are people who are so focused on defending their 'team' that they have have not given enough consideration to the damage that barbarism has and will have on your society. You appear to be one of those people.

There will be people in your society who take this cue from 'their' government. Who see that torture was used and that 'their' leaders have defended the use of it. Who will apply this standard to their own lives.

I don't expect much more from you than a glib response. I have seen plenty of responses in forums from people who had supported the Bush/Cheney administration, but who have condemned their actions in this regard. I hope that more people will look past their own politics and, like John Mccain, stand to one side and say "this is not who we are".
 
BS

They are hero's and have kept my country safe. I'm standing while I salute them.

What brings shame is cowardly liberals, they are the same ones who hold our incredible military in contempt.

The military guys I knew told me they thought "enhanced interrogation" is BS.
The CIA and their Blackwater type spooks do not equal our military.
 
Our soldiers constantly get tortured, It would be nice if everyone obeyed the laws of war. lol

And by violating the laws of war, the US makes it more or less likely that others will follow?


This is why these things are supposed to be kept secret, its not supposed to be out in the open so libs can turn up their pious noses. But having libs in positions of seeing classified secrets is becoming quite the problem.

So long as the law breakers can keep their law breaking secret it's alright?

It is generally in the interests of criminals to keep criminal activities secret - it means that they don't have to suffer the consequences of their behaviour. Your statements here and elsewhere rather strongly imply that you are OK with the state violating laws so long as you don't find out about it. And of course so long as the state tells you that they're doing it for your protection.

If this is indeed your attitude, you should have no objections to state monitoring of your bank records, phone and email records and general surveilance of your activities on the off chance that you are a criminal of some sort. After all, what physical harm have you suffered, and if the state agents are doing their job properly, you won't even know it's happening, which means some pesky "liberal' won't step up to help protect your rights.
 
Torture didn't get any less awful in the intervening years. And, really, you're suggesting that a period in time when America was being birthed and built was less dire than our current "war" against fundamental Islamists? That's a pretty warped perspective.

Funny, I don't remember reading about the enemy cutting off heads.
 
Can you cite examples of this "constant" torture US soldiers are subjected to? And, no, movies don't count.

We haven't had any caught yet by this current enemy. It is only people of the region who seem to be getting tortured. They did just shoot down a Jordanian pilot, but we wouldn't want to assume the worst of these precious terrorists


as far as past wars, you can look it up yourself.
 
We haven't had any caught yet by this current enemy. It is only people of the region who seem to be getting tortured. They did just shoot down a Jordanian pilot, but we wouldn't want to assume the worst of these precious terrorists


as far as past wars, you can look it up yourself.

Um. You said US soldiers are "constantly tortured". Surely you have some examples or evidence to support this assertion? Either that or you've been watching to much 24 and think fantasy is fact? The latter would at least go a long way to explaining your worldview, if nothing else.
 
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And by violating the laws of war, the US makes it more or less likely that others will follow?

It does not matter what we do.



So long as the law breakers can keep their law breaking secret it's alright?
Yes
It is generally in the interests of criminals to keep criminal activities secret - it means that they don't have to suffer the consequences of their behaviour. Your statements here and elsewhere rather strongly imply that you are OK with the state violating laws so long as you don't find out about it. And of course so long as the state tells you that they're doing it for your protection.
It's a good thing you aren't a citizen, you don't have to worry yourself about it.
Yes the government keeps secrets, oh my.
If this is indeed your attitude, you should have no objections to state monitoring of your bank records, phone and email records and general surveilance of your activities on the off chance that you are a criminal of some sort. After all, what physical harm have you suffered, and if the state agents are doing their job properly, you won't even know it's happening, which means some pesky "liberal' won't step up to help protect your rights.

lol
They already do, we lose freedoms for more security. I don't like it, I'm well armed and carry, but libs cannot protect themselves, and rely on the state to protect them, then cry about the loss of freedom.
 
Once the door has been opened to criminal activities by governments then how do government officials know which laws they're allowed to break?

If it is to the perceived advantage of the collective for the White House to start 'disappearing' people that they object to, what's to stop them? Just as long as no-one finds out it's all hunky dory.
 
Funny, I don't remember reading about the enemy cutting off heads.

So having fewer beheadings of American citizens than you could count on one hand, half a world away, is more "dire" than the existential threat of a foreign imperial force waging war against America within the American continent?

Cool story :rolleyes:
 
It does not matter what we do.

Then don't complain when the "other" does it to you.

Remind your employees then that, if they should decide to steal from either you or company, that it's OK so long as they keep it secret.

It's a good thing you aren't a citizen, you don't have to worry yourself about it.
Yes the government keeps secrets, oh my.

As a member of a miltary that is rather closely aligned with yours, I DO need to be concerned. Systemic violations of the LOAC and other ratified treaties by the US increase the likelihood of revenge actions against PWs.

lol
They already do, we lose freedoms for more security. I don't like it, I'm well armed and carry, but libs cannot protect themselves, and rely on the state to protect them, then cry about the loss of freedom.

Doesn't matter how well armed you are - state actors will always be better armed.

And so long as they tell all of your likeminded comrades that you were acting funny, and that they have information that you weren't complying with police instructions, they won't bother to question it - just another criminal rightfully taken out by a hardworking policeman, or a terrorist tortured so that they can be safe.
 

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