Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
What if we did have that, would that be too much for pious libs with all their fine morals? lol
How about waterboarding? It really is the perfect tool, its quite harmless too. No limbs being lost, no fingernails pulled.
How about KSM, 183 times, that was one tough bird.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Oh, man. That is funny, because reasons!
Depending on any side effects, I wouldn't have a problem using it in emergency situations.
You're a bit late to the game to honestly try to play this card. It's torture. It brings the victim to near asphyxiation. We prosecuted people who used waterboarding for war crimes in WWII.
Border Reiver
Philosopher
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First, if used in the US torture violates the U.S. constitution, and when you get to bring them to trial for tHeir crimes, they walk because of violations of the 8th Amendment. And all the people you brought in solely as a result of the torture received information also get to walk. Congratulations, you've made your world less safe.
Second, if you do it elsewhere you are violating the treaty signed by the U.S. on the Eradication of Torture, opening the people that do it and the people to prosecution. And told people that the word of the U.S. Government on a ratified treaty isn't good. Congratulations - you've made your world less safe.
Third, doing this to even illegal enemy combatants is contrary to the Geneva Conventions on the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Once again opening US servicemen to prosecution, and also to reciprocal treatment, in addition to reminding people that the U.S. can't be trusted. Congratulations, you've made your world considerably less safe and very likely gotten less useful information than you would have gotten with other methods.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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Feel free to undergo water-boarding yourself just to prove that it's harmless.
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
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Sen. John McCain calls that torture. Given the rather unpleasant treatment he received at the hands of the North Vietnamese, I'm inclined to trust his conclusion on this particular matter.
I'll come back to this point: are you okay with waterboarding being done on an American captive held by a foreign country or group? Because if you aren't yet are for waterboarding captives the U.S. holds, that is an inherent contradiction.
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
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I gave you a plausible scenario - the ATM card one - where torture is effective at obtaining reliable information quickly. Sure, it wouldn't work on either hardened Thai Boxers or delusional people who think that being tortured and killed is no different from just being killed, but I think it would work on most people, including me. Would it work on you?
beren
Graduate Poster
No way it would work in me.
Scenario 1: I talk. They get my money. They kill me sooner.
Scenario 2: I lie repeatedly. They don't get my money. They torture me but take longer to kill me.
Only a moron picks scenario 1. I have friends. Cops exist. The longer I stay alive the better my chance of review or escape. It's a choice between certain death and probable death. Torture fails on anyone with a brain in your scenario.
The Norseman
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lol all those pesky morals lol life would be better without them lol
So harmless that it's been outlawed by the US. Must be in error! Be sure to tell the feds that they need to strike that from the list.
That was one tortured cat.
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
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Again, you were asked to provide evidence not a repeat of a story you're making up.
anglolawyer
Banned
Neither your post not tsig's is an adequate substitute for argument. Let's not descend to this level of childish stupidity please.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
That's no better than your contrived sadistic voyeur super villain scenario. It's just as cartoony and has absolutely no relevance to the ticking time bomb scenerio and it's been pretty much been shredded by others.
The only impressive thing about it is that you actually referred to it as "plausible".
Do you feel the ATM scenario is typical of the situation the CIA found themselves when they tortured prisoners? Do you feel the CIA was justified to use torture because 4-digit PIN numbers are easy to verify?
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
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I'm challenging Upchurch. He has refused to answer several questions of mine, including what exactly he proposes is a more effective form of interrogation. I also asked him specifically whether the promise of rewards would be an effective incentive for a suspect to give information to an interrogator.
I have also explained why the burden of proof is not on me. First of all, the fact that humans respond to incentives, and that promises of reward or punishment can affect human behavior, is obvious. There is no reason to believe that this incentive structure breaks down at any particular point on the continuum of punishment severity, let alone precisely at that point at which some (or most) people define punishment as causing "severe" pain. It is nonsensical to think that all of a sudden, the threat of pain infliction stops working altogether as an effective incentive to cooperate.
Second, torture does not have to work on 100% of people 100% of the time in order for it to be an effective option. It only has to work on some of the people some of the time. So Upchurch's claim becomes that torture never works on anybody ever. That is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. My claim is actually rather mundane, and I can give you at least one example of a person on whom torture would work quite well. Me.
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sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
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That's no better than your contrived sadistic voyeur super villain scenario. It's just as cartoony and has absolutely no relevance to the ticking time bomb scenerio and it's been pretty much been shredded by others.
The only impressive thing about it is that you actually referred to it as "plausible".
Do you feel the ATM scenario is typical of the situation the CIA found themselves when they tortured prisoners? Do you feel the CIA was justified to use torture because 4-digit PIN numbers are easy to verify?
I love the smell of goal posts being moved in the morning. It smells like ... victory.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
I've given more than adequate arguments, evidence, and scientific information. It wasn't a substitute. It was just bonus.
The forum provides the smilies, why shouldn't they be used?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
What? Do you think you've shown that torture was necessary? That it provides good information quickly?
I suggest you review the thread.
anglolawyer
Banned
I have no intention of replying to this save to say tsig has form and you do yourself no credit by descending to his/her level. If you run out of arguments just shut up. I reported both posts FWIW.
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
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Our discussion was about whether torture is ever morally permissible, not specifically about whether the CIA was justified in its use of torture. I have actually been consistent in saying that I don't think it was, just as I don't think the drone missile killings are justified. I come to that decision by weighing costs and benefits on a moral balance.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
anglolawyer
Banned
Being off topic and discourteous. If that's nor right, hopefully they'll think of something. Please stick to the argument, where you have been doing fine so far as this lurker is concerned.