The Electric Comet theory

[Haig]

From upthread:

So the science is NOT his he simply points to it and you have NO answer just turn a blind eye, how about some of you MATH "believers" do a calculation on the probability of ALL these sources being WRONG !!!

About the same "probability" as a cloud looking like a bunny to someone interested in bunnies. But to someone interested in elephants that same cloud looks nothing like a bunny. And to an actual scientist studying clouds it looks like a cumulonimbus at some number of millibars and a pilot sees an obstacle to route around.

Pointing out how some but not all petroglyphs look kinda sorta like some but not all plasma discharge phenomena is the least academically rigorous approach to the question (whatever the question is). A plasma physicist working independent of any anthropology or archaeology on an archaeology data set. is not a valid approach.

I see you REALLY are comfused (I know, I know it's MY fault )

That line of mine you quote above, is NOT about the work of Anthony L. Peratt and petroglyphs ... it's about Velikovsky's book "Earth in Upheaval" (1956) and the science he collects in it ... see again the last part of my post HERE just after this quote ...

Ah! you get upset about the ideas of Immanuel Velikovsky ? Well that IS what he said would happen !

One of the books he wrote was a collection of the science of his day showing that global catastrophe happened in the "age of man" and big ELECTRIC COMETS were the cause.

So the science is NOT his he simply points to it and you have NO answer just turn a blind eye, how about some of you MATH "believers" do a calculation on the probability of ALL these sources being WRONG !!!

I can see a bit more clearly now how the mess mainstream cosmology is in could come about

 

[Ziggurat]

Gezz guys if you rush into the MATH with all kinds of wrong assumptions you could end up in the mess mainstream cosmology is in ... believing in the "dark arts" of black holes, dark matter, dark energy and big bang creationism. We don't want that ... do we ?

It's ALL about Evidence (then the maths)

You're not serious about the evidence, and nobody, nobody, on the EU side ever bothers to get to the math.

OH DEAR you guys try to ridicule the work of Anthony L. Peratt

What do you expect but ridicule for the ridiculous?

If the stick man Squatter Man were a Plasma Discharge seen in the heavens then it would release Synchrotron Radiation, that depending on the stage of the instability could be harmful or lethal to those exposed to it in the open."

This is mind-numbingly stupid. X-ray radiation travels the same way visible light does: in straight lines. If they could see these x-pinch auroras, they were not shielded by terrain, and if they were shielded by terrain, they would not be able to see them.

How about some of you MATH "believers" do a calculation on the probability of ALL these sources being WRONG !!!

OK: the probability is 1.

And by "sources" I mean Peratt, etc. The cave painters weren't wrong, they just weren't drawing z pinches.

Now it's NOT just The Squatter Man image that inspired the ancients. remember ALL art / culture / myths / religion were DRIVEN by Plasma Discharge seen in the heavens and the symbols of this are STILL with us today.

Sure, because plasma discharges also looked like voluptuous women and aurochs (oh my god! the name is almost the same as aura! maybe you're right1 ) .

 

[Matthew Cline]

If the stick man Squatter Man were a Plasma Discharge seen in the heavens then it would release Synchrotron Radiation, that depending on the stage of the instability could be harmful or lethal to those exposed to it in the open.

That would have also affected all of the non-marine plant and animal life. The plant life wouldn't have been able to hide, and much of the animal life would have hid behind an insufficient amount of material, leading to massive die offs. I'm not a biologist or archaeologist, but I'm not aware of any such massive die offs happening during the time period when humans were making cave paintings.

If they could see these x-pinch auroras, they were not shielded by terrain, and if they were shielded by terrain, they would not be able to see them.

To be fair, if such a thing had happened, they could have caught a brief glimpse of it while out in the open, then run away to safety inside of caves, with the brief glimpse not being enough exposure to be lethal.

 

[ferd burfle]

...snipped wall o' nonsense

Now it's NOT just The Squatter Man image that inspired the ancients. remember ALL art / culture / myths / religion were DRIVEN by Plasma Discharge seen in the heavens and the symbols of this are STILL with us today.

...more snippage

Please explain in detail (and without more spam) the nature of the plasma discharge that inspired the image of the horse on the Lascaux cave walls.

Have the idiots on Ancient Aliens ever sued you guys for plagiarism?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Would an atmospheric discharge look the same as one confined by a Pyrex tube? How much of the shaping and symmetry is due to confinement in laboratory conditions and how much is native to the discharge and would propagate through unconfined atmosphere in the same manner? Also, what altitude would this take place? I lived very briefly far enough north to see the northern lights and would expect a solar/atmospheric interaction phenomenon to be regionally visible not globally so.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ben m]

There is a perfectly good explanation for why there is rock art that looks like human figures. That explanation is the rock artists were drawing human figures, a shape that was important and familiar to them both in their myths and their realities. End of story. This accounts for why the human figures are seen with global distribution, seen in all epochs from Altamira to the 18th century. Pretty good theory, eh?

• It includes all of the data---you don't have to go through and cherry-pick "human figures near dots" and ignore "human figures chasing animals" or "animal figures near dots".
• You don't have to invent an imaginary (but undated) global event that was traumatically burned into the memories of all humans, worldwide, but somehow invisible in any geological/tree-ring/ice-core/sediment record.
• You don't have to invent imaginary, totally-unsubstantiated laws of caveman psychology, to posit why the global event memories were permanently translated into rock art but totally absent from other records. (The Chumash, for example, were making rock art in c. 1800 and explaining their myths to missionaries in c. 1850. No global electric catastrophe or glowing plasma sky man.)
• You don't have to ignore laws of physics, and indeed to deny the principle that physics obeys laws that respond well to mathematical study.

 

[Matthew Cline]

There is a perfectly good explanation for why there is rock art that looks like human figures. That explanation is the rock artists were drawing human figures, a shape that was important and familiar to them both in their myths and their realities. End of story.

This doesn't explain why there's multiple examples of drawings where the human figures have a circled dot on either side of their torso/stomach. Of course, I'm not going to leap from that to "therefore plasma", but I'd be interested to know what explanations archaeologists have.

 

[Haig]

That would have also affected all of the non-marine plant and animal life. The plant life wouldn't have been able to hide, and much of the animal life would have hid behind an insufficient amount of material, leading to massive die offs. I'm not a biologist or archaeologist, but I'm not aware of any such massive die offs happening during the time period when humans were making cave paintings.

Your right ALL life on Earth was affected ... and while you may not be aware of any massive die off's happening in "the age of man" the archaeological and palaeontology records and other science shows there was ...

Earth in Upheaval

Full PDF of "Earth in Upheaval" is HERE

To be fair, if such a thing had happened, they could have caught a brief glimpse of it while out in the open, then run away to safety inside of caves, with the brief glimpse not being enough exposure to be lethal.

As I understand it ... not very many did survive. We are survivors of survivors because there was very few places to hid.

Would an atmospheric discharge look the same as one confined by a Pyrex tube? How much of the shaping and symmetry is due to confinement in laboratory conditions and how much is native to the discharge and would propagate through unconfined atmosphere in the same manner? Also, what altitude would this take place? I lived very briefly far enough north to see the northern lights and would expect a solar/atmospheric interaction phenomenon to be regionally visible not globally so.

Thanks in advance.

These plasma events were way way way more dramatic and awe inspiring than ordinary aurora. Ancient legends, myths and religion weren't driven by ordinary events.

Best to read up on Hannes Alfvén and his Second Approach to Real Space Plasma to understand and you could start here ... Hannes Alfvén bibliography

and you can also read this ...

Worlds in Collision

Worlds in Collision and the Natural Sciences

Although many articles were written against the theory of Worlds in Collision, and its author was called many names, there are but two arguments that are of real significance and with which the theory of “worlds in collision” stands or falls. One argument is of astronomical, the other of geological nature. Astronomers believe that the Earth and the entire solar system have been moving unperturbed for billion-years-long eons, every planet and every satellite on the same unchanging orbit. Geologists believe that the earth passed through a process of slow evolution, and that no vast catastrophe occurred in the age of man, if at all.

Since these two beliefs are the foundation of these two sciences, a theory that opposes them threatens to overturn the entire edifice. It is branded as heresy and is summarily rejected as being incompatible with the basic notions of natural sciences as taught in all textbooks and from all professorial chairs of natural sciences in general, not only astronomy and geology. If celestial mechanics went astray, the physics upon which it is built contains some basic error, and if the accepted view of geology is wrong, the theory of evolution that excludes past catastrophes must be based on a wrong notion. But astronomy is said to be the most exact of all sciences, being almost the embodiment of mathematics, and modern physics is the mainstay of all natural sciences, and the theory of evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology now for more than ninety years. No wonder that a theory that would contradict so much had to be rejected even without attention being paid to it; then it is also no wonder that Worlds in Collision was paid an unusual amount of attention.

I know you want me to spell it out for you but I'm not. Read the material and make your own mind up.

 

[ben m]

This doesn't explain why there's multiple examples of drawings where the human figures have a circled dot on either side of their torso/stomach. Of course, I'm not going to leap from that to "therefore plasma", but I'd be interested to know what explanations archaeologists have.

I offer a hypothesis:

Name any randomly-chosen vaguely-symmetric relationship of human figures, dots, and lines.

I posit that there are many examples of that.

By selecting and showing only the "figure flanked by dots" examples and ignoring the others, Peratt makes it look like this is somehow typical or important.

Someone who wanted "evidence" that ancient humans had been jailed? They could probably show 500 examples of humans between vertical lines. Someone who wanted to prove that ancient humans glowed in the dark? 1000 examples of humans between radiating lines. Ancient alien visitors? 500 examples of humans *under* a dot. Ancient mole-men theorist? 500 examples of humans above other humans. And so on.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Your right ALL life on Earth was affected ... and while you may not be aware of any massive die off's happening in "the age of man" the d


<snip for brevity>

I know you want me to spell it out for you but I'm not. Read the material and make your own mind up.

Thanks for providing the usual and expected Gish gallop, linkbarf, nested quotes and unsubstantiated blather. I was actually looking for a scientific answer from tusenfem or someone familiar with a actual plasma science phenomena

 

[Belz...]

You're not serious about the evidence, and nobody, nobody, on the EU side ever bothers to get to the math.

Ah, but that's because it would be putting the cart before the horse, or something.

 

[Matthew Cline]

Your right ALL life on Earth was affected ... and while you may not be aware of any massive die off's happening in "the age of man" the archaeological and palaeontology records and other science shows there was ...

Earth in Upheaval

Full PDF of "Earth in Upheaval" is HERE

I've heard that archaeologists and paleontologists weren't very impressed by Velikovsky, so I'd want some direct references to mainstream archaeologists and paleontologists, since otherwise I'd have to chase down each of the references in Earth in Upheaval and learn enough about the relevant fields to evaluate his interpretations for what he references, and I'm not interested enough to put in that much effort.

 

[Haig]

Thanks for providing the usual and expected Gish gallop, linkbarf, nested quotes and unsubstantiated blather. I was actually looking for a scientific answer from tusenfem or someone familiar with a actual plasma science phenomena

What! and Hannes Alfvén isn't good enough for you ?


Paradigm transition in cosmic plasma physics

Abstract

During the 1970's in situ measurements in the magnetospheres, including the solar wind region ("solar magnetosphere") drastically changed our understanding of the properties of cosmic plasmas. Further, we have learned how to generalize results from plasma investigations in one region to other regions. This means that laboratory investigations of plasmas of the size of, say, 10 cm can be used to achieve better understanding of cosmic plasmas of magnetospheric dimensions; say, 1010 cm. By another step of 109 we can transfer laboratory and magnetospheric results to galactic plasmas of, say, 1019 cm. A third jump of 109 brings us up to the Hubble distance 1028 cm and hence to cosmological problems (see Figure 1).

Cosmology - Myth or science?

Abstract

Three or four millenia of cosmological speculation have yielded essentially three different types of approach to the central questions of this science: (1) the scientific approach, which stresses experimentation and observation; (2) the agnostic attitude, which rejects the possibility and the value of caring about problems so far removed from ordinary experience; and (3) the mythological approach, which emphasizes a priori speculation to the exclusion of experimentation and observation and finds its contemporary expression in the virtually Pythagorean importance of mathematics in general relativity and Big Bang cosmology. It is noted that while the scientific approach leads to basically infinite models, myths can more often be seen to result in finite universe models involving creation at a certain instant.

Double layers and circuits in astrophysics

Abstract

A simple circuit is applied to the energizing of auroral particles, to solar flares, and to intergalactic double radio sources. Application to the heliospheric current systems leads to the prediction of two double layers on the Sun's axis which may give radiations detectable from earth. Double layers in space should be classified as a new type of celestial object. It is suggested that X-ray and gamma-ray bursts may be due to exploding double layers (although annihilation is an alternative energy source). The way the most used textbooks in astrophysics treat concepts like double layers, critical velocity, pinch effects and circuits was studied. It is found that students using these textbooks remain essentially ignorant of even the existence of these, although some of the phenomena were discovered 50 yr ago.

 

[Haig]

I've heard that archaeologists and paleontologists weren't very impressed by Velikovsky, so I'd want some direct references to mainstream archaeologists and paleontologists, since otherwise I'd have to chase down each of the references in Earth in Upheaval and learn enough about the relevant fields to evaluate his interpretations for what he references, and I'm not interested enough to put in that much effort.

Understood. If you believe ...

One argument is of astronomical, the other of geological nature. Astronomers believe that the Earth and the entire solar system have been moving unperturbed for billion-years-long eons, every planet and every satellite on the same unchanging orbit. Geologists believe that the earth passed through a process of slow evolution, and that no vast catastrophe occurred in the age of man, if at all.

... then there is no point in you going any further!

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Haig - quit posting long passages of unrelated information in "answer" to my technical questions. If I want that sort of conversation I'll ask Jehovah Witness door knockers Bible questions. If you don't have a technical answer to my technical question, don't bother replying.

 

[Matthew Cline]

Understood. If you believe ...

One argument is of astronomical, the other of geological nature. Astronomers believe that the Earth and the entire solar system have been moving unperturbed for billion-years-long eons, every planet and every satellite on the same unchanging orbit. Geologists believe that the earth passed through a process of slow evolution, and that no vast catastrophe occurred in the age of man, if at all.

... then there is no point in you going any further!

But at the moment I'm not talking about astronomy or geology, but archaeology and paleontology. Neither of those fields are adverse to massively important thing happening over a relatively short periods of time, so neither would have reason to ignore evidence of massive die offs during the time period that those cave paintings were made.

 

[Haig]

But at the moment I'm not talking about astronomy or geology, but archaeology and paleontology. Neither of those fields are adverse to massively important thing happening over a relatively short periods of time, so neither would have reason to ignore evidence of massive die offs during the time period that those cave paintings were made.

Agreed and neither archaeology or palaeontology did ignore massive die offs during the time period that those cave paintings were made.

The science sources are given ....... you just have to look at them and make your own mind up.

Every chapter has the science sources at the end and they can be checked !

Earth in Upheaval

Book contents

Preface
Acknowledgments
Chapter 1 In the North:

In Alaska
The Ivory Islands
Chapter 2 Revolution:

The Erratic Boulders
Sea And Land Changed Places
The Caves Of England
The Aquatic Graveyards
Chapter 3 Uniformity:

The Doctrine Of Uniformity
The Hippopotamus
Icebergs
Darwin In South America
Chapter 4 Ice:

The Birth Of The Ice Age Theory
On The Russian Plains
Ice Age In The Tropics
Greenland
Corals Of The Polar Regions
Whales In The Mountains
Chapter 5 Tidal Wave:

Fissures In The Rocks
The Norfolk Forest-bed
Cumberland Cavern
In Northern China
The Asphalt Pit Of La Brea
Agate Spring Quarry
Chapter 6 Mountains And Rifts:

Mountain Thrusts In The Alps And Elsewhere
The Himalayas
The Siwalik Hills
Tiahuanacu In The Andes
The Columbia Plateau
A Continent Torn Apart
Chapter 7 Deserts And Oceans:

The Sahara
Arabia
The Carolina Bays
The Bottom Of The Atlantic
The Floor Of The Seas
Chapter 8 Poles Displaced:

The Cause Of The Ice Ages
Shifting Poles
The Sliding Continents
The Changing Orbit
The Rotating Crust
Chapter 9 Axis Shifted:

Earth In A Vice
Evaporating Oceans
Condensation
A Working Hypothesis
Ice And Tide
Magnetic Poles Reversed
Volcanoes, Earthquakes, Comets
Chapter 10 Thirty-five Centuries Ago:

Clock Unwound
The Glacial Lake Agassiz
Niagara Falls
The Rhone Glacier
The Mississippi
Fossils In Florida
Lakes Of The Great Basin And The End Of The Ice Age
Chapter 11 Klimasturz:

Klimasturz
Tree Rings
Lake Dwellings
Dropped Ocean Level
The North Sea
Chapter 12 The Ruins Of The East:

Crete
Troy
The Ruins Of The East
Times And Dates
Chapter 13 Collapsing Schemes:

Geology And Archaeology
Collapsing Schemes
In Early Ages
Coal
Chapter 14 Extinction:

Fossils
Footprints
The Caverns
Extinction
Chapter 15 Cataclysmic Evolution:

Catastrophism And Evolution
The Geological Record And Changing Forms Of Life
The Mechanism Of Evolution
Mutations And New Species
Cataclysmic Evolution
Chapter 16 The End:

The End
Supplement:

1895 And 1950: The Time Was Ripe For A Heresy
Worlds In Collision And Recent Finds In Archaeology
Recent Finds In Geology
Worlds In Collision And Recent Finds In Astronomy


Earth in Upheaval PDF

It never ceases to amaze and disappoint me that people reject ideas without even checking them much or even a little.

I guess it could be a Psychological thing ?

 

[ben m]

Lest anyone fall for Haig's sleight-of-hand, let me point out:

Alfven did NOT write about Haig/Sol/Talbott-style crap. He had his own non-mainstream cosmology and planet-formation theories. They did NOT involve giant lightning bolts and did NOT rely on any of this rock art "evidence". (Alfven's paper with "myth" in the title, quoted above, is complaining that Big Bang theory is merely mythmaking.)

In the 1960s-70s Alfven's theories were real theories (speculative ones, but so were the alternatives at the time) but by the 1980s they had degenerated into evidence-free crackpot ranting. Velikovsky, Peratt, and Talbott, by contrast, started with evidence-free ranting and stuck to evidence-free crackpot ranting.

 

[LSSBB]

It never ceases to amaze and disappoint me that people reject ideas without even checking them much or even a little.

I guess it could be a Psychological thing ?

It never ceases to amaze and disappoint me that people accept ideas without even checking them much or even a little.

I guess it could be a Psychological thing ?


As for you, Haig, would you be disappointed to know that I had checked Velikovsky's ideas already, and personally rejected them as unsupported and not derived by rational methods? Assuming that your detractors have not already checked your sources is unwarranted based merely on the fact that they reject them.

 

[Haig]

Lest anyone fall for Haig's sleight-of-hand, let me point out:

Alfven did NOT write about Haig/Sol/Talbott-style crap. He had his own non-mainstream cosmology and planet-formation theories. They did NOT involve giant lightning bolts and did NOT rely on any of this rock art "evidence". (Alfven's paper with "myth" in the title, quoted above, is complaining that Big Bang theory is merely mythmaking.)

In the 1960s-70s Alfven's theories were real theories (speculative ones, but so were the alternatives at the time) but by the 1980s they had degenerated into evidence-free crackpot ranting. Velikovsky, Peratt, and Talbott, by contrast, started with evidence-free ranting and stuck to evidence-free crackpot ranting.

You make me out to be a con artist

All I did was quote some of the actual words Alfven said and there is a lot more he said that chide the mainstream wrong turn he warned about.

It never ceases to amaze and disappoint me that people accept ideas without even checking them much or even a little.

I guess it could be a Psychological thing ?


As for you, Haig, would you be disappointed to know that I had checked Velikovsky's ideas already, and personally rejected them as unsupported and not derived by rational methods? Assuming that your detractors have not already checked your sources is unwarranted based merely on the fact that they reject them.

That is pure projection

No one claims Velikovsky was right in everything but he was right to challenge the dogma of his day and his work is still strong in this day too.

The Science he confronted has become a religion all on it's own.

Where is the scientific method now ?