• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bitcoin - Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
jhunter1163 said:
Who needs a product with all BTC's problems with theft and value instability when there are secure and stably-valued alternative e-payment methods available? BTC's big selling point seems to be anonymity, which no doubt appeals to a certain sector but it isn't a big draw to most people.
Click to expand...
Give me a wallet address and I could transfer bitcoins to you within minutes without knowing your name, sex or the continent you reside in. Can you do that with apple pay?
 
jhunter1163 said:
BTC's big selling point seems to be anonymity, which no doubt appeals to a certain sector but it isn't a big draw to most people.
Click to expand...

There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
 
Brian-M said:
There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
Click to expand...

You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
 
So which is it? Did Mt Gox take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did they simply lose bitcoins that their customers had entrusted them with?
 
psionl0 said:
So which is it? Did Mt Gox take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did they simply lose bitcoins that their customers had entrusted them with?
Click to expand...

Wareyin's post clearly said "somebody"; whether that "somebody" was inside or outside of Mt. Gox isn't clear. The loss puts the lie to the notion that BTC is somehow safer and more secure than other repositories of financial value.

And, whether the coins were "lost" or "stolen" is a distinction without a difference to the people who lost $450 million, now isn't it?
 
jhunter1163 said:
You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
Click to expand...

Bitcoin exchanges have been hacked. That's why banks are better. They've never been hacked.

Bitcoin exchanges have had employees do immoral things to benefit themselves or the exchanges at the expense of their customers. That's why banks are better. They've never done that.

Plus bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges have been around as long as banks so it's not like these exchanges were relatively new territory where mistakes would happen and improvements would be made over time.
 
Last edited:
jhunter1163 said:
Wareyin's post clearly said "somebody"; whether that "somebody" was inside or outside of Mt. Gox isn't clear.
Click to expand...
So which is it? Did "somebody" take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did "somebody" simply lose/steal bitcoins that customers had entrusted Mt Gox with?
 
Last edited:
Here's the most recent info I could find about the Gox unpleasantness; apparently Kraken has stepped up to handle the liquidation.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/11/25/kraken-bitcoin-operator-to-help-liquidate-mt-gox/

I'd guess that the creditors might, if they are fortunate, see 10 cents on the dollar. Gox still holds about 200K BTC, but of course any effort to liquidate that many coins would drive the price to near zero.

And, to get back to psionl0's post, it appears that the bulk of the coins were stolen, i.e. removed from accounts without the account holder's consent. This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
 
jhunter1163 said:
This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
Click to expand...
Trusting somebody else with your money (in whatever form it takes) always has some risks.

However, in spite of the unfortunate use of the word "account" instead of "wallet", Brian-M was never referring to bitcoin exchanges and, as the highlighted section shows, you know this all too well. It is just a feeble attempt to derail the discussion.

The fact remains that provided you take sensible security precautions with your wallet, nobody can ever take your bitcoins away from you without your consent. They can only try to persuade you to hand them over.
 
Last edited:
jhunter1163 said:
Brian-M said:
There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
Click to expand...

You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
Click to expand...

I think you'll find that Mt. Gox had the private keys to all the wallets containing the Bitcoins in their customer's accounts.

Keeping your Bitcoins in a trading account is the same thing as putting your money in the hands of a business, and as a result the security advantage of Bitcoin is lost.

(Of course, unless you're mining bitcoin or selling products in exchange for bitcoin, or happen to know someone who has bitcoin they're willing to sell for cash, you pretty much have to go through a trading account to get bitcoin. Similar situation for selling your bitcoin. Unless you know someone interested in buying you'll need to use an exchange as well.)

ETA:
jhunter1163 said:
And, to get back to psionl0's post, it appears that the bulk of the coins were stolen, i.e. removed from accounts without the account holder's consent. This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the thieves stole the bitcoins without either getting hold of the private keys for the wallets in which they were stored, or by some form of indirect access to the private keys (such as by ordering a computer with access to the private keys to transfer the bitcoins to a different wallet)?
 
Last edited:
Brian-M said:
Are you saying that the thieves stole the bitcoins without either getting hold of the private keys for the wallets in which they were stored, or by some form of indirect access to the private keys (such as by ordering a computer with access to the private keys to transfer the bitcoins to a different wallet)?
Click to expand...

Yes. Google "transaction malleability".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom