The Historical Jesus II

[JaysonR]

With respect, if you did convince me that the Moon is made of green cheese, an entirely different idea would present. But that is not evidence of the Moon's composition. Do you have a personal viewpoint about this? If so, I would be interested to know what it is, and the reasons why you are of that opinion.

I'm not talking about green cheese moons or purple unicorns.
I'm talking about provenance and culture; very real and impacting factors.

But like I said, we can just address the post 2204 I wrote to stay on point.


Regarding provenance hypotheses, I'll write you a PM with a reference link to my thoughts.

 

[IanS]

The only things Bible Paul gives us are standard messianic attributes, with two exceptions; that Bible Jesus had a brother called James. How did Bible Paul know? Because he met this James.
.
.
And Bible Jesus was crucified. The disciples knew that, and could have told Bible Paul. But as to his biography and his teachings, more or less nothing.

You are writing the above as if it were known to you as certain fact, with not the slightest caution at all on your part.

Neither of those things are known to be true in any sense at all beyond the books of ancient miraculous superstitious religious legend.

We have no idea if this "lords brother" was known to Paul as an actual family member of a human Jesus. Neither Paul nor that same "James" ever wrote to claim that. And as you know very well, there are multiple reasons to suspect that one single never repeated line, was not talking about any family member of a Jesus figure whom Paul never knew, and who he say's he never "learned about" "from any man", was "not taught about it by anyone" and was "not of human origin" etc.


Which disciples "knew that Jesus was crucified"? Where did any disciple write to make a credible claim to having witnessed any such thing? Are these the same "reliable" disciples that were claimed to witness all the impossible miracles?

 

[dejudge]

You spout this gibberish because you are unable to understand simple writings! So Bible Jesus was a physical descendant of human ancestors while he was alive, and all this Son stuff happened after he was resurrected, according to Bible Paul. That's like Bible David who was the son of a person, Bible Jesse, before he was anointed as King: then he was acknowledged as Son of God. Again, Bible Paul is simply calling Bible Jesus a Messiah. Most people can understand these words, dejudge. This is not a "history" of Bible Jesus' life.

Again, you write fiction and logically fallacious arguments based on the gibberish of your Paul, your Auditory hallucinator.

I have exposed your fiction that the father of Jesus of Nazareth was Joseph.

The NT Canon, including the Pauline Corpus, is in AGREEMENT with the doctrine of the Church that Jesus was God of God and born of a Ghost.

The NT authors gave the details of the birth of their Jesus.

In writings attributed to Josephus the father of David was Jesse.

No actual human father is alloted to Jesus in the Pauline Corpus.

In writings attributed to Paul the parents of Jesus was God and a woman, and Jesus was the Lord from heaven, God's Own Son, the second Adam who was made a Spirit.

It is complete fiction that the Canonised Pauline Corpus is about a non-divine Jesus.

The Pauline Corpus does NOT have the history of a human only Jesus AT ALL.

The Pauline Corpus is about GOD INCARNATE.

The Pauline Corpus supports Mythology.

 

[maximara]

The sources and the cultural milieux in which they were generated are so different in the cases of Jesus and John Frum, that proclaiming the name of Frum is really not helpful in determining the historicity of Jesus.

You keep claiming that but as demonstrated IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley, and others all cited by Carrier things are otherwise.

"Belief in Christ is no more or less rational than belief in John Frum." - Peter Worsley "The trumpet shall sound: a study of cargo cults in Melanesia" (1957) which was quoted and sited in the University of Wollongong Thesis collection in 1968.

Again Carrier is basing his comparison on the work of social anthropologist Peter Worsley and those of three other anthropologists to build his case. So far you have been dodging that point.

 

[Craig B]

You keep claiming that but as demonstrated IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley, and others all cited by Carrier things are otherwise.

They're cited by Carrier are they? Wow! That's that, then.

How about please addressing my points in some other way than telling me Carrier says something or other. I have said that the background of the Frum and Jesus stories is significantly different. Tell me in your own words why you think that's not important.

 

[maximara]

Bear also in mind, that Christ doesn't mean Son of God. It means anointed, like a King or a high priest. Anointed and Son of God are both titles of kings of the Bible Davidic Dynasty. We've been through that, dejudge. Bible Paul says Bible Jesus was of the seed of Bible David, so it follows that these titles were appropriate.

Right and as mentioned by Josephus there were a bumper crop of would be 'Messiahs'. 'Sons of Man', 'the Righ*teous Ones', and 'the Elect [or Chosen] Ones' popping up over Palestine from c6 BCE to c130 CE.

Jesus ben Ananias [Ananus] (66-70 CE) case in point and as pointed out before there are strong parallels between him and aspects of the Jesus in gMark.

I have also stated that what we have of these other would be 'Messiahs' shows what we should expect in the non Christian literature.

Look as how little of The Egyptian prophet in Josephus we have despite him supposedly leading a mob of 30,000 against Jerusalem in the 50s CE. We don't even know his actual name. And other then claiming he would do a Jericho on the walls of Jerusalem we know nothing of what he preached.

Even Acts 21 doesn't mention his name even though this is supposedly documenting events between 59 to 62 CE (reign of Porcius Festus)

 

[maximara]

They're cited by Carrier are they? Wow! That's that, then.

Address what IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley and the rest are cited for or admit you have nothing.

 

[JaysonR]

I think I can fully agree that the backgtound of Frum and Jesus are different.
The story of Jesus spans over 60 bodies of work and all are quite specifically designed in generally good quality literary form...Frum?...not really.

 

[Craig B]

Address what IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley and the rest are cited for or admit you have nothing.

You tell me what that is and I'll discuss it with you.

 

[Brainache]

Address what IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley and the rest are cited for or admit you have nothing.

You mean this: "Belief in Christ is no more or less rational than belief in John Frum." ?

Accepting that HJ is more probable than MJ is not the same as "Belief in Christ". You've got your "Triumphalist" and "Minimalist" all tangled up (again).

 

[dejudge]

The evidence for or against the existence of John Frum is of no real value in the quest for an historical Jesus.

It is completely logically fallacious to argue that Jesus did or did not exist because John Frum was or was not a figure of history.

The Quest for an historical Jesus REQUIRES EVIDENCE from antiquity.

We have HUNDREDS of manuscripts and Codices with stories of Jesus of Nazareth and they are ALL from the 2nd century or later.

Jesus of Nazareth is described as a Myth character in the HUNDREDS of existing manuscripts and Codices.

Based on these existing manuscripts and Codices the Jesus character was INVENTED in the 2nd century or later.

Apologetic sources claimed the Fall of the Temple of the Jewish God was because the Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their own God.

Those who believed the propaganda were called Christians.

Hippolytus' Against the Jews

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?........ it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor

Aristides' Apology

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh......But he himself was pierced by the Jews......And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they have become famous.

Justin Martyr's Apology

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

....In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated....

Lactantius "On How the Persecutors Died

....I find it written, Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.

The fabrication of the propaganda that the Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their own God was as a direct result of the Fall of the Jewish Temple of God c 70 CE.

All stories of Jesus of Nazareth was composed AFTER c 70 CE or AFTER the writings attributed to Suetonius or no earlier than the start of the 2nd century.

All existing stories of Jesus of Nazareth are dated to the 2nd century or later.

All mention of people called Christians who believed the Jesus story are from the 2nd century or later.

The Jesus character was a product of fiction and supposed prophecies in Hebrew Scripture like the book Daniel.

 

[Craig B]

All existing stories of Jesus of Nazareth are dated to the 2nd century or later.

Utter nonsense and illiterate drivel, to suggest that means Jesus lived in the second century or later. Did C J Caesar invade Britain in the ninth century, with horns growing out of his helmet?

 

[dejudge]

The evidence for or against the existence of John Frum is of no real value in the quest for an historical Jesus.

It is completely logically fallacious to argue that Jesus did or did not exist because John Frum was or was not a figure of history.

The Quest for an historical Jesus REQUIRES EVIDENCE from antiquity.

We have HUNDREDS of manuscripts and Codices with stories of Jesus of Nazareth and they are ALL from the 2nd century or later.

Jesus of Nazareth is described as a Myth character in the HUNDREDS of existing manuscripts and Codices.

Based on these existing manuscripts and Codices the Jesus character was INVENTED in the 2nd century or later.

Apologetic sources claimed the Fall of the Temple of the Jewish God was because the Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their own God.

Those who believed the propaganda were called Christians.

Hippolytus' Against the Jews

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?........ it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor

Aristides' Apology

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh......But he himself was pierced by the Jews......And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they have become famous.

Justin Martyr's Apology

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

....In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated....

Lactantius "On How the Persecutors Died

....I find it written, Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.

The fabrication of the propaganda that the Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their own God was as a direct result of the Fall of the Jewish Temple of God c 70 CE.

All stories of Jesus of Nazareth was composed AFTER c 70 CE or AFTER the writings attributed to Suetonius or no earlier than the start of the 2nd century.

All existing stories of Jesus of Nazareth are dated to the 2nd century or later.

All mention of people called Christians who believed the Jesus story are from the 2nd century or later.

The Jesus character was a product of fiction and supposed prophecies in Hebrew Scripture like the book Daniel.

Utter nonsense and illiterate drivel, to suggest that means Jesus lived in the second century or later. Did C J Caesar invade Britain in the ninth century, with horns growing out of his helmet?

You write plenty of fiction and logically fallacious arguments. Virtually every post of yours are littered with fiction and logically fallacious arguments.

You cannot present any contemporary evidence from antiquity for your Jesus and Paul!!!

I never claimed or suggested that Jesus lived in the 2nd century or later.

I am arguing that the Jesus in the existing manuscripts and Codices is a product of fiction and mythology.

You are presently and actively using the BIBLE and Anonymous 2nd century or later writings to argue that your Jesus and Paul existed since the time of John the Baptist or Aretas.

In the Bible and hundreds of existing manuscripits Jesus lived in the time of Pilate as a TRANSFIGURING Sea water Walking Ghost and God Creator.

You have already admitted Paul had Auditory hallucinations and may have been off his nut in reality. You have already admitted that Bible Paul wrote nothing about an historical Jesus.

Your Paul SAW someone WITH OR WITHOUT the Body. Your Paul had conference WITHOUT Flesh and blood when Jesus was revealed to him. Your Paul claimed he was a WITNESS that God raised Jesus from the dead.Your Paul claimed he was SEEN of Jesus AFTER over 500 persons.

Your Paul was a known Liar if he had AUDITORY hallucinations.

Your PAUL did NOT see the resurrected Jesus if he had AUDITORY hallucinations.

 

[maximara]

All existing stories of Jesus of Nazareth are dated to the 2nd century or later.

Utter nonsense and illiterate drivel, to suggest that means Jesus lived in the second century or later. Did C J Caesar invade Britain in the ninth century, with horns growing out of his helmet?

Total non sequitur as demonstrated by the story of George Washington's vision which doesn't appear until April 1861; that doesn't mean that George Washington lived in the 19th century.

For those unfamiliar with it George Washington's vision is supposedly the account of Anthony Sherman July, 4 1859 relating an event that happened to George Washington at Valley Forge in 1777.

The vision not only supposedly foretold the Civil war but (and this is why it is still relevant today) three world wars:

""Again I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his lips and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it on Europe, Asia, and Africa. Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these countries arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one; and throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light be which I saw hordes of armed men, who, moving with the cloud, marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns, and cities that I had beheld springing up."


In fact, George Washington's vision is a prime example of a historical myth; a fantastical tale that uses an actual historical event to lead credence to it being historical. In reality, while there was a officer named Anthony Sherman in the Continental Army, he was was at Saratoga under the command of Benedict Arnold at the end of 1777 and therefore could not have been anywhere near Washington to heard the account first hand and no account of this vision appears before 1861.

The tale goes to Charles Wesley Alexander who produced similar stories involving Abraham Lincoln, Jefferson Davis, Ulysses S. Grant and General McClellan.

What dejudge is actually pointing out there is no reason to supposed the Gospel accounts (which I also feel were written in the 2nd century, c130 CE) are any more historical then George Washington's Vision. They are as demonstrated by other events related in them effectively historical fiction.

 

[maximara]

You mean this: "Belief in Christ is no more or less rational than belief in John Frum." ?

Since only Peter Worsley made that comment and I said to address IC Jarvie, Derrett, James Crossley, and the rest as well the answer to that question should be obvious...provided one doesn't pull a Holding and doesn't actually think about what is written.

 

[maximara]

You tell me what that is and I'll discuss it with you.

I have already told you and you keep claiming is it is Carrier's views. Address what IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley, and others are cited for (that the cargo cults are total relevant to Christianity) or admit you have nothing.

 

[Craig B]

I have already told you and you keep claiming is it is Carrier's views. Address what IC Jarvie, Peter Worsley, Derrett, James Crossley, and others are cited for (that the cargo cults are total relevant to Christianity) or admit you have nothing.

I have to look things up that Carrier cites or admit to you that I have nothing? [Omitted profanity] off! Put your arguments down here and we can discuss them.

 

[maximara]

I have to look things up that Carrier cites or admit to you that I have nothing?

They have been presented; address them or admit you have nothing.

 

[dejudge]

....What dejudge is actually pointing out there is no reason to supposed the Gospel accounts (which I also feel were written in the 2nd century, c130 CE) are any more historical then George Washington's Vision. They are as demonstrated by other events related in them effectively historical fiction.

Please, I wrote nothing of your George Washington story.

I use the statements found in the hundreds of 2nd century or later manuscripts and Codices with stories of Jesus and Paul.

My argument is that Jesus and Paul are pure fiction and myth [without a shred of contemporary historical evidence]

In the NT, Jesus and Paul participated in multiple events which could not and did NOT happen.

Essentially, the stories of Jesus and Paul ONLY make sense if they had NO real existence but were ONLY BELIEVED to have existed.

 

[Craig B]

They have been presented; address them or admit you have nothing.

Then refer me to the post number#????.