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Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

I think these people get it, approximately:

One of the central ideas of psychology—one of the reasons we study it at all—is that human beings often do things for reasons other than the ones they say, because they’re either unaware of or unwilling to identify their real motivations. That idea may apply to harsh interrogation techniques as well. In 2009 the psychologists Kevin M. Carlsmith and Avani Mehta Sood published a paper (pdf) in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology in which they looked at a possible motivation for resorting to coercive interrogations besides stopping future terrorist attacks.

Carlsmith had done earlier research about punishment in a criminal context and found that, although people often cite utilitarian justifications for the penalties they’d like to see imposed on wrongdoers—deterring future criminals by showing them their potential fate, incapacitating someone so he does not commit future crimes—their actions are actually driven by “retributive principles.” It’s revenge, in other words, and the sense that bad actors should be punished.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...nt-really-about-information-its-about-revenge
 
I think these people get it, approximately:

One of the central ideas of psychology—one of the reasons we study it at all—is that human beings often do things for reasons other than the ones they say, because they’re either unaware of or unwilling to identify their real motivations. That idea may apply to harsh interrogation techniques as well. In 2009 the psychologists Kevin M. Carlsmith and Avani Mehta Sood published a paper (pdf) in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology in which they looked at a possible motivation for resorting to coercive interrogations besides stopping future terrorist attacks.

Carlsmith had done earlier research about punishment in a criminal context and found that, although people often cite utilitarian justifications for the penalties they’d like to see imposed on wrongdoers—deterring future criminals by showing them their potential fate, incapacitating someone so he does not commit future crimes—their actions are actually driven by “retributive principles.” It’s revenge, in other words, and the sense that bad actors should be punished.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...nt-really-about-information-its-about-revenge
Thank you for providing that. Very informative.
 
How much "collateral damage" is needed for drone strikes to be immoral.

Is any amount acceptable as long as at least one bad guy gets killed? Does it take two?

What's an acceptable ratio between bad guys killed vs. innocent civilians?

If the bad guy turns out to not have been there is it immoral yet?

When we kill civilians of countries with which we are not engaged in active declared hostilities why is it not immoral?

There are bad guys in the U.S. (or fill in your own country) too. Do you extend the same arbitrary right for others to do the same on U.S. soil?

Civilians get killed in wars. It has been that way since forever. It is not possible to fight wars otherwise.

We may not be in a war with any particular country, but we are in a war with al Qaeda, and Congress (I think only a single member of Congress voted against this resolution) explicitly gave the President the power to fight this war.

If some group operating within the US started a war with some country by killing thousands of its citizens and the US was unwilling or unable to take care of these people, yes that aggrieved country would have the moral right to kill those ****ers as they operated within the US.
 
Thank you very much. I've added this to the top of my Christmas book list. I will get all 3 of his books. I have Hanna Arendt's Eichman in Jerusalem and found her conclusions about the Banality of Evil compelling.

No problem. I took a class on the holocaust 20 years ago at UCLA. We had an intense discussion about whether Americans would behave like the members of Battalion 101. You like to think you wouldn't act like that... but I think we underrate the pressure to conform and the effects on ubiquitous propaganda.

Since it was 20 years ago, we also had some survivors as guest lecturers. They were only in their mid-60's to early 70's at the time. Now they're mostly gone. I think Steven Spielberg has been recording their stories for the past decade or so.
 
I don't want to derail the topic of the torture report, but I feel the need to point out that drone strikes are not a different type of sniper rifle. Quite often, strikes are performed on targets unidentified; targets chosen because they are travelling in locations "consistent with terrorists." Or we perform strikes on civilian areas. Or we perform strikes on first responders and funerals (a tactic we learned from the very terrorists we are trying to kill).

There's a lot more going on than killing enemies in a war.

I think if we're going to do drone strikes, we better be damn sure we have the right target in mind. You can never be completely sure, but it has to be based more than on "someone who happens to hang out with so-and-so".
 
Those who carried out torture for the CIA believed they were carrying out torture on people who perpetrated a terrorist attack which killed 3,000 people.


Their belief as you have stated it is based on the impossible, since all the perpetrators of the terrorist attack on 9/11 during its execution. (Indeed, their deaths were an express part of the plan.)

If you mean associates or affiliates of the organization which funded and backed the plan, that's different.
 
Civilians get killed in wars. It has been that way since forever. It is not possible to fight wars otherwise.

We may not be in a war with any particular country, but we are in a war with al Qaeda, and Congress (I think only a single member of Congress voted against this resolution) explicitly gave the President the power to fight this war.

If some group operating within the US started a war with some country by killing thousands of its citizens and the US was unwilling or unable to take care of these people, yes that aggrieved country would have the moral right to kill those ****ers as they operated within the US.


Bush? Cheney? They fit your conditions pretty well.

You'd be okay with drone strikes by some other country on U.S. soil? And if some other, innocent people happened to be in the neighborhood ... oh well?
 
By your standard of morality, it's immoral for hostage rescue teams to kill in defense of hostages, unless they are close friends or family of the hostages. Or does that kind of attack fall under your Moral Provocation clause?
I never said it was unacceptable to kill in defense of others.

ETA: It also seems to open wide the door to torture. If I accept that I will likely be tortured, and understandably so, if I fall into enemy hands, then is it not moral for me to employ torture myself whenever I believe it is necessary? All the president needs is a few good men who see the value and accept the risk, and the entire program becomes eminently moral by your standard.
You're switching it around. I was basically implying that if you have tortured someone else, you should be willing to be punished by torture yourself. I did not say that accepting the possibility of torture makes it okay for you to torture someone else.

Your logic is incomplete. Those who carried out torture for the CIA believed they were carrying out torture on people who perpetrated a terrorist attack which killed 3,000 people. So, by your logic, they should only be willing to be subjected to the same torture methods themselves if they had perpetrated a similar terrorist attack (or at least were suspected of same). I imagine they could accept that, just as you could accept the self-defense standard being applied to yourself.
Well, I could extend that logic and say that the CIA works for a government that has killed far more than 3,000 people, and caused more than its share of terror in its history. What if we're not the good guys?
 
Bush? Cheney? They fit your conditions pretty well.

You'd be okay with drone strikes by some other country on U.S. soil? And if some other, innocent people happened to be in the neighborhood ... oh well?

I wouldn't give a crap. Of course, the US government would see it differently so it would be an extremely stupid move.
 
Since the ticking time bomb scenario has been referenced, for those who would support torture I pose the following question: You have a suspect in custody. It seems there is imminent danger of a large bomb going off outside a government building. Presumably torture is the tool to use to try and stop the situation. But here's the twist: it's an Oklahoma City-style scenario where your detainee is a Timothy McVeigh-style right-wing, anti-government terrorist. Is torture still acceptable? What if the prisoner is an American citizen? If torture is claimed to be an important tool in fighting terrorism, then shouldn't its use be widened to include American citizens suspected of terrorism as well as non-citizens?
 
I never said it was unacceptable to kill in defense of others.
I understood you to say that you believed it would be immoral for you to kill anyone, except in self defense or in defense of loved ones. I also understood you to extend this principle to everyone--that anyone who killed in defense of strangers was acting immorally.

You're switching it around. I was basically implying that if you have tortured someone else, you should be willing to be punished by torture yourself. I did not say that accepting the possibility of torture makes it okay for you to torture someone else.
I apologize for not grasping your implication. I wish you had made your position explicit to begin with.

Anyway, this idea of punishment leaves me even more confused about your morality than before. Are you saying it's immoral for a judge to issue a life sentence, unless he's willing to be punished with a life sentence himself? Punished for what? Sentencing someone?

What about jailers? Is it immoral for them to keep someone in jail, if they are not willing to be punished with jail time themselves? Punished for what? Keeping a convicted criminal in jail?

I think perhaps your moral framework around torture is circular--it's immoral, therefore it should be punished, therefore it's only moral if the torturer accepts your prescribed punishment for his immoral acts.

And who would punish the torturer, anyway? Anyone who waterboards a waterboarder is just as immoral, and just as deserving of waterboarding. In order to satisfy your morality, it would have to be torturers all the way down.

What becomes of justice in your world, if your morality demands that any act be answered with punishment in kind?
 
First of all, the word is "tacks" not "tacts." Second, I have never ever claimed that waterboarding is not torture. Third, you continue either to misconstrue or dishonestly represent my argument concerning the morality of torture. I have never claimed that there is no such thing as torture. I have only argued that the perceived morality of the use of physical force depends on circumstances, and there is nothing magical about torture versus other forms of physical and mental coercion in that regard. Another way of saying this is that just because some action crosses the legal line separating torture from non-torture, the moral outrage meter shouldn't discontinuously jump to 11. Using a level of physical force short of torture on a suspect can be just as immoral or more so as waterboarding a terrorist, depending upon circumstances. I have also argued that such circumstances may even justify the waterboarding of a terrorist so the act isn't immoral at all.
It's a shame that you have been so misunderstood, especially when you are trying to explain something so trite: that law and morality do not precisely coincide. But, broadly speaking, at least in the criminal sphere, they should. I am happy to help you draft a law that will reflect your personal preferences in this area. It will contain a general defintion of torture, as in the international treaty the US has repudiated, but will go on to provide:

It shall be a defence to a charge of torture for the accused to prove that any relevant act (to be defined) was carried out in exceptional circumstances of grave and imminent danger to the national interest (to be defined).

How does that sit with you? I can think of further safeguards too. As with executions, acts of torture can be witnessed by specified persons to ensure fair play: the local sheriff, a judge, NBC etc . We can also permit publication of the footage on social media to get the message out to the bad guys (that's them, not us, of course) so they don't have it all their own way.

We can set up a regulatory commission to issue regulations and guidance to ensure that the law, which I suggest we call Sunmaster's Law, is clear to everybody. We can by these means regulate the persons authorised to conduct torture, submitting them for regular psychiatric check-ups, for example, as well as listing permitted/verboten types of torture. In that regard, how do you feel about the following:

Toe and finger nail pulling
Teeth pulling
Bollock crushing
Genital electrocution
Molestation of family members in presence of victim terrorist
Head crushing
Racking
Plunging of feet in molten metal (a particular favourite from the Middle ages)
Playing endless loops of Bob Dylan?

As I say, these are just ideas I want to run passed you. I am at your service in case they don't marry up with your moral code but I do want to be clear that there is no impediment to bringing the law into line, or more into line, with whatever that code is.

ETA do we also need an evidential threshold in there somewhere that requires there to be a reason for supposing the, er, subject actually might know something useful? Have a stab at that, in layman's lingo, and I'll draft it for you.
 
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I have also argued that such circumstances may even justify the waterboarding of a terrorist so the act isn't immoral at all.

Torture is immoral. The real question is, is it effective? If not it should be stopped, not on moral grounds but on practical and humanitarian grounds, the latter being based on the fact that if you've got someone who is a 'terror suspect' but not actually guilty (faulty intelligence / somebody set them up), you will never get the truth out of them anymore than you'll get water out of an empty jug.

On top of this I listened to a UK radio program about this very subject that revealed, if you know what is coming it is nowhere as effective as if you don't, so the innocent are more likely to breakdown under these circumstances and just become mentally broken people. This is the psychology of the situation.

They further pointed out that joining special forces or even terrorist groups, the initiation or basic training is in fact torture itself, so why would genuine terrorists fear this as it is their badge of courage?

Morally, you cannot attack the terrorists for beheading people when you yourself as a country are acting as bad, when you are killing innocent people in this way.

Who has the moral high ground?
 
Torture is immoral. The real question is, is it effective? If not it should be stopped, not on moral grounds but on practical and humanitarian grounds, the latter being based on the fact that if you've got someone who is a 'terror suspect' but not actually guilty (faulty intelligence / somebody set them up), you will never get the truth out of them anymore than you'll get water out of an empty jug.

Ah, another moral absolutist with an untenable position. Clearly, it doesn't matter if torture is effective when the situation is emotionally dire enough. A more sophisticated understanding shows that the ends justify the means and two wrongs make a right.
 
Ah, another moral absolutist with an untenable position. Clearly, it doesn't matter if torture is effective when the situation is emotionally dire enough. A more sophisticated understanding shows that the ends justify the means and two wrongs make a right.

And besides, those terrorists deserve it. Just look at what they did yesterday. They deserve to be tortured
 
Ah, another moral absolutist with an untenable position. Clearly, it doesn't matter if torture is effective when the situation is emotionally dire enough. A more sophisticated understanding shows that the ends justify the means and two wrongs make a right.


Jabjabjab at poor old Sunmaster.

Some of these arguments seem familiar: http://rocket.csusb.edu/~tmoody/ijap192-Miller.pdf

It's worth a read.
 
And besides, those terrorists deserve it. Just look at what they did yesterday. They deserve to be tortured

Wow!

Earlier you denied being an advocate of torture and in your previous post you said that "torture is immoral", but now you are an advocate of torture.

Thanks much for clearing up that detail.
 

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