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Most of you wrote the story the way you wanted it to break down, and spend of a lot of time patting yourselves on the back.

Wilson had choices. Instead of backing up and being yahoo cowboy, he could have waited for backup, like most police officers would do. He could have kept Brown under surveillance. It's not like there were that many people the size of Brown in the area.
......

Brown had choices also; for instance:

  • He chose to rob a convenience store.
  • He chose to walk down the middle of the street instead of using the sidewalk..
  • He chose to stay in the street after being confronted by a police officer.
  • He chose to assault a police officer.
  • He chose not to back off and/or surrender.

Did I miss anything?
 
Instead of backing up and being yahoo cowboy, he could have waited for backup, like most police officers would do.
Wilson also backed up as Brown was advancing on him as evidenced by the blood trail and shell casings. I have seen plenty of people back up fast to talk with people. meh

He could have kept Brown under surveillance. It's not like there were that many people the size of Brown in the area.

He could only keep Brown in sight if he got out of the vehicle. Back up was on its way.


Nothing in his police training told him to back up, slam open his door, and start the confrontation that led to Brown's death.
Cool, you know police training!

He's a yahoo cop and the city of Ferguson and the police force are better off without him.

Hmmm... what was that about,
Most of you wrote the story the way you wanted it to break down, and spend of a lot of time patting yourselves on the back.

I have never seen a more fitting avatar in my life.
 
For me, the question of whether the shooting was justified hinges on who initiated or instigated the physical altercation at Wilson's SUV during the second contact. Everything else sort of flows from that single point.

For obvious reasons, neither of the surviving participants is likely to provide an objective account. And, unfortunately, there's no physical evidence that provides any information about that moment.
 
:rolleyes: I always enjoy people apologizing for Brown's actions while accusing Wilson of misconduct, and claiming to know things that "most police officers would do" while providing no evidence to support that theory.

I don't enjoy people misrepresenting what somebody said to create strawman arguments to satisfy their need for simplistic rationalization. Nothing that KatieG said fit your characterization of it as an an apology for Brown's actions. Lots of people commit crimes. The goal of police is to arrest them without killing them. Wilson failed at that and it's reasonable to question what happened that made that so.

The people here that want to make this in to a clear cut case of violent thug killed by policemen just doing his job are making assumptions up the kazoo but they don't realize it because it's so much easier to come to clear cut opinions that support our preconceived notions.

They assume that the woman who came forth either deserved to by cursed at or that she is lying, they assume that Wilson's actions in the Arman video were unusual for Wilson or that there is some unseen aspect of the incident that justifies Wilson's actions, they assume that Wilson really had a clean record when there were multiple reasons to doubt that reports of transgressions by Wilson would have been saved. they assume that Wilson didn't repeat the same kind of lies he made with regard to the Arman incident in his testimony about the Brown incident, they assume that Wilson is telling the truth about the initial contact between himself, Brown and Johnson and that he acted reasonably, they assume that when Wilson backs his car up he isn't acting in an aggravated state because Johnson and Brown have ignored him despite the fact that Wilson's actions were extremely ill considered just based on his own safety, they assume that when Brown turned towards Wilson, Brown acted in a way that was so threatening that Wilson had no choice but to shoot Brown to protect himself and they assume that Brown wasn't getting on the ground when Wilson put three shots into his head and they assume that with at least three shots in him Brown posed such a threat to Wilson that he had no choice but to shoot Brown in the head.

Maybe there is something to all these assumptions. We are in to the land of the unknowable here, but I think there's plenty of reason to see Wilson's actions in this event as a possible significant contributor to the tragedy. I think it is very likely that Brown would be alive if almost any other policemen had been in Wilson's situation.
 
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I don't enjoy people misrepresenting what somebody said to create strawman arguments to satisfy their need for simplistic rationalization. Nothing that KatieG said fit your characterization of it as an an apology for Brown's actions. Lots of people commit crimes. The goal of police is to arrest them without killing them. Wilson failed at that and it's reasonable to question what happened that made that so.

The people here that want to make this in to a clear cut case of violent thug killed by policemen just doing his job are making assumptions up the kazoo but they don't realize it because it's so much easier to come to clear cut opinions that support our preconceived notions.

They assume that the woman who came forth either deserved to by cursed at or that she is lying, they assume that Wilson's actions in the Arman video were unusual for Wilson or that there is some unseen aspect of the incident that justifies Wilson's actions, they assume that Wilson really had a clean record when there were multiple reasons to doubt that reports of transgressions by Wilson would have been saved. they assume that Wilson didn't repeat the same kind of lies he made with regard to the Arman incident in his testimony about the Brown incident, they assume that Wilson is telling the truth about the initial contact between himself, Brown and Johnson and that he acted reasonably, they assume that when Wilson backs his car up he isn't acting in an aggravated state because Johnson and Brown have ignored him despite the fact that Wilson's actions were extremely ill considered just based on his own safety, they assume that when Brown turned towards Wilson, Brown acted in a way that was so threatening that Wilson had no choice but to shoot Brown to protect himself and they assume that Brown wasn't getting on the ground when Wilson put three shots into his head and they assume that with at least three shots in him Brown posed such a threat to Wilson that he had no choice but to shoot Brown in the head.

Maybe there is something to all these assumptions. We are in to the land of the unknowable here, but I think there's plenty of reason to see Wilson's actions in this event as a possible significant contributor to the tragedy. I think it is very likely that Brown would be alive if almost any other policemen had been in Wilson's situation.

Great post :)
 
For me, the question of whether the shooting was justified hinges on who initiated or instigated the physical altercation at Wilson's SUV during the second contact. Everything else sort of flows from that single point.

For obvious reasons, neither of the surviving participants is likely to provide an objective account. And, unfortunately, there's no physical evidence that provides any information about that moment.

Well, let's not pretend as though a police officer getting physical with a robbery suspect is on exactly equal footing with a robbery suspect getting physical with a police officer.

Nor is it the same thing as if some random dude just walked up to Michael Brown on the street and tried to grab him.

If Wilson got physical first, and I personally doubt that very much, but if he did... it's an entirely different dynamic than the other way around.

To a great degree (though this isn't an inexhaustible thing with no qualifications on it whatsoever) we as citizens are obligated not to respond in kind to any physicality a police officer does on us.

If a cop comes up to me and starts barking something at me about me being under arrest, even if I haven't done anything, even if he must have the wrong guy, even if whatever... I need to let him do what he's going to do, and it's in my best interest to make myself appear completely nonthreatening to him. The moment I put up any resistance, let alone attempt to do harm to him... I've just entered into a whole world of problems.

There's really no scenario where Michael Brown is justified, at all, whatsoever, in responding to Wilson with physicality. Even if Wilson started to pull his gun out. As a criminal citizen you are obligated to surrender when a policeman draws his gun.

You don't have some sort of right to "defend yourself" because he's getting his gun out. Getting a gun out to point at you is a fairly standard thing for police to do when you're a criminal. I had it done to me once when I was the most law-abiding entity to ever exist. They were mistaken about my identity, and that got cleared up pretty quickly.

I most certainly did not have the right to treat it the same way as a random person drawing a gun on me and go into "omg this guy is randomly trying to kill me for no reason, must do anything I can to overpower him!" mode.

We are required as citizens to view and react to aggressive actions from cops very differently than from other citizens.
 
I don't enjoy people misrepresenting what somebody said to create strawman arguments to satisfy their need for simplistic rationalization. Nothing that KatieG said fit your characterization of it as an an apology for Brown's actions. Lots of people commit crimes. The goal of police is to arrest them without killing them. Wilson failed at that and it's reasonable to question what happened that made that so.

The people here that want to make this in to a clear cut case of violent thug killed by policemen just doing his job are making assumptions up the kazoo but they don't realize it because it's so much easier to come to clear cut opinions that support our preconceived notions.

They assume that the woman who came forth either deserved to by cursed at or that she is lying, they assume that Wilson's actions in the Arman video were unusual for Wilson or that there is some unseen aspect of the incident that justifies Wilson's actions, they assume that Wilson really had a clean record when there were multiple reasons to doubt that reports of transgressions by Wilson would have been saved. they assume that Wilson didn't repeat the same kind of lies he made with regard to the Arman incident in his testimony about the Brown incident, they assume that Wilson is telling the truth about the initial contact between himself, Brown and Johnson and that he acted reasonably, they assume that when Wilson backs his car up he isn't acting in an aggravated state because Johnson and Brown have ignored him despite the fact that Wilson's actions were extremely ill considered just based on his own safety, they assume that when Brown turned towards Wilson, Brown acted in a way that was so threatening that Wilson had no choice but to shoot Brown to protect himself and they assume that Brown wasn't getting on the ground when Wilson put three shots into his head and they assume that with at least three shots in him Brown posed such a threat to Wilson that he had no choice but to shoot Brown in the head.

Maybe there is something to all these assumptions. We are in to the land of the unknowable here, but I think there's plenty of reason to see Wilson's actions in this event as a possible significant contributor to the tragedy. I think it is very likely that Brown would be alive if almost any other policemen had been in Wilson's situation.

A lot of assumptions there on your part too, Dave.
 
Basis for this claim?

Basis?

How about 5 seconds of rational thought as the basis for that claim?

  • Police have arrest powers.
  • Police are legally permitted to use physical force to effect an arrest.
  • It is unlawful to assault a police officer.
  • It is unlawful to resist arrest.
  • Anything where you lay hands on an officer qualifies as assaulting them, whether that's pushing them, hitting them, wrestling with them, whatever.

The way this plays out in the real world is that anyone who decides to do anything other than comply and accept the officer's actions and offer no resistance to the officer... is creating enormous problems for themselves.

The problem is that nobody, from the other officers who show up as backup, to the passing pedestrian (who sometimes help officers subdue someone btw) is in any position to determine whether the officer was being "too aggressive" or overstepping their bounds, or arresting you for something you didn't do, or arresting you for something that didn't merit an arrest, or arresting you with more force and aggression than was necessary.

All those sorts of determinations are beyond the scope of what anyone is in a position to determine while the event itself is still unfolding.

Is it possible that there are situations where the officer is so out of control that the pure laws of your natural right to defend your life kick in and you could be justified in fighting the officer physically? Sure. That could happen. But just know that you are on very thin ice once you go down that road and you'd better hope you were right, better hope others agree, better hope you can prove it, better hope you WIN and the officer doesn't just get even more aggressive and possibly kill you due to you fighting back. Because once you decide to go down that road, you very likely will have to subdue the officer and it could become life or death. Just not a situation you want to be in. At all.

So law and society must default to siding with an officer and assuming that any time a person is physically aggressive toward an officer, that they are in the wrong. This has to be clear to you. I refuse to believe it isn't.

The situation Michael Brown found himself in, even in the most anti-Wilson narratives, was one where he should have complied and not offered any physical resistance, let alone physical aggression. His fate is a good demonstration of why. So is Wilson's lack of indictment.

So even if Wilson whacked Brown as hard as he could with his truck door, deliberately being more aggressive and confrontational than he needed to be... and even if Wilson screeched his tires and pulled his vehicle back toward them in a way that made them feel like he might almost hit them... and even if Wilson grabbed Brown's neck and pulled him into the truck window... and even if Wilson got his pistol out at a time Brown didn't think he was justified in doing so (and I don't believe any of this to be true or likely btw) but even if all of that is true, Brown's best course of action, and likely only legal course of action, was to comply, comply, comply.

If Brown were a rational person his reaction in the face of such over the top (fanciful, likely fictional) aggression from Wilson would be to go out of his way to show how much of a threat he was not, and go out of his way to comply and try to make it clear he would go quietly. The last and worst thing you'd want to do when faced with a red-faced raging cop is to do anything which would increase their perception of you as a threat they need to ramp up physical violence against even more. Again, Brown's fate is great evidence of this.
 
Yahoo news and several other agencies have stated the DA released more of DJ's interviews. Damned if I can find the documents though.
 
Yahoo news and several other agencies have stated the DA released more of DJ's interviews. Damned if I can find the documents though.

Has any of the information they've released so far been video or audio format or is it all text?
 
Hey gotta new slogan for the protesters, it's educational to..
"Comply and don't die".... Chant it a couple of times out loud!
Kinda catchy ;)
 
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Uhhhh, you might get shot?


Isn't that just the (idealized) American Way™, though? Cops aren't the only ones that have guns and might take offense at you getting physical with them. So how is one supposed to properly fight back against a perceived unjust attack? Shoot first?
 
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It may be the " ... the (idealized) American Way™, ", but until the reality is changed through social change, i.e. - electing officials who are held accountable, to put the kind of police force in place to serve the public interest. Until then it is not a good idea not to go around assaulting police officers, no matter what your perceived sense of ' what's right ' may be....

Until then, ' ... shooting first ', may be your best option. and you can sort it out in court later, which is not an option if you are dead....
 
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