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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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How did that lie 'cover herself' or how could anyone think it might? If she was actually there that night she would know that Patrick was not and they couldn't find evidence he was and that he'd likely be able to produce an alibi. It would just serve to incriminate her, which of course is all the statements ever did anyway. How did she 'cover herself' by putting herself in a prison cell?

Why would you even consider that a likelihood anyway when you already have an admission from a Perugian police chief that they wouldn't believe her and questioned her until she buckled and told them what they 'knew' to be correct? You now know that wasn't correct and that Amanda almost immediately repudiated it, but police kept him locked up for two weeks regardless.


That statement means they really wanted to get Patrick so why did they drop the case against him and not frame him as you claim the did to Amanda? If they could falsify evidence and suborn perjury against Amanda they could do it to Patrick.
 
That statement means they really wanted to get Patrick so why did they drop the case against him and not frame him as you claim the did to Amanda? If they could falsify evidence and suborn perjury against Amanda they could do it to Patrick.

There is a point where framing anybody is a futile endeavor. Amanda is with one person alone in his apartment. Patrick is in his bar surrounded by customers. DOH!!!!
 
I've seen no proof there even is an application.

You are certainly free to believe that there isn't one.

How can we be sure that there really is a European Court of Human Rights? Most of us only know about this alleged organization from an internet website.
It probably doesn't take a lot of resources to create a fake website with a fanciful name.

I predict there will be a new class of skeptics, the ECHR deniers.
Another group will be the application deniers.

Does Rudy Guede have access to the internet now?
 
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There is a point where framing anybody is a futile endeavor. Amanda is with one person alone in his apartment. Patrick is in his bar surrounded by customers. DOH!!!!

Some of those witnesses were pretty unassailable as well. . . . .The Italian police were still pretty reluctant to accept the testimony.
 
I just watched a youtube video called the Glass Age, where the guys from Mythbusters explore the properties of glass. It's quite interesting and I noticed something where they show with a high speed camera the breaking of a wine glass with a little hammer. Take a look at the video starting from 1:50 on the video. It show how the glass shattered and moved in the same direction as the object that was breaking it. Just as a rock being thrown through a window. Virtually none of it went in the opposite direction. Just like the cottage window.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OSBJwogFc
 
I just watched a youtube video called the Glass Age, where the guys from Mythbusters explore the properties of glass. It's quite interesting and I noticed something where they show with a high speed camera the breaking of a wine glass with a little hammer. Take a look at the video starting from 1:50 on the video. It show how the glass shattered and moved in the same direction as the object that was breaking it. Just as a rock being thrown through a window. Virtually none of it went in the opposite direction. Just like the cottage window.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OSBJwogFc

The argument that they break in was faked just seems incomprehensible. I think it was one of the main arguments used to convict but I just don't see if as a valid argument.
 
Or she was lying to cover herself.

That is a possible alternative. What seems more probable based on the facts, though?

Scenario 1: Amanda teamed up with Raffaele and Rudy for some arbitrary reason to kill her roommate in a murder orgy. And somehow not leaving any evidence of herself in the murder room. For some inexplicable reason she returned to the crime scene and had Raffaele call the cops. She voluntarily went to the police station for questioning. After a series of "interviews" interrogations (lol who are we kidding) she vaguely implicated Patrick, who wasn't even there. The details of her story do not match up at all with the known facts, a hallmark characteristic of a false confession. For some reason she doesn't implicate Rudy, despite the fact that if she did kill Meredith, she would have known Rudy was there, and he would be the only logical one to implicate.

Scenario 2: Amanda was at Raffaele's all night, which matches the known time of death and computer evidence. She had Raffaele call the cops because she actually was concerned for Meredith at that point. She went to the cops voluntarily because that's what an innocent person would do if they were trying to help with the investigation. She implicated Patrick because she was tired, confused, didn't speak Italian well, and was coerced to give a confession. This is why none of the details match up with the facts, because she wasn't actually there. This also neatly explains why there was absolutely no physical evidence of her in the murder room.

Which scenario seems more likely, given the facts? Call this the world's easiest IQ test. :)
 
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Someone claimed to have seen that Patrick's bar was closed

That statement means they really wanted to get Patrick so why did they drop the case against him and not frame him as you claim the did to Amanda? If they could falsify evidence and suborn perjury against Amanda they could do it to Patrick.
tsig,

IIRC The police found a pseudo-witness who claimed that Lumumba's bar was closed that night. Kaosium may remember better than I do.
 
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The argument that they break in was faked just seems incomprehensible. I think it was one of the main arguments used to convict but I just don't see if as a valid argument.

It's not and it is totally absurd. One only need to watch videos like this and the guy climbing the outside wall to come to the conclusion that there isn't a scrap of evidence that supports "the staged break in theory". And in fact all the available evidence proves the opposite.

The prosecution says things like it is suspicious that they didn't find any glass outside....not that I think they actually really looked. Still, watching how glass breaks it's damn clear that their would be at most an extremely tiny amount that would find it's way outside. In fact their point about the lack of glass outside proves the opposite. That the rock was thrown from outside the window just as you would expect from a burglar.
 
Dear Hugo: You're very wrong.

If there is a genuine human-rights issue that the ECHR might be interested in, I'm not seeing it. The Groupies seem to imagine that because the 01:45 was conducted as a witness interview, so that the statement would not be useable against Knox on the matter under investigation, she had carte blanche to commit any crime she liked -- including, as I mentioned a year or two ago, stabbing one of the police interviewers -- and it somehow shouldn't count.

No. This is very simple: there is an ECHR right to be silent, and convicting someone on the basis of statements made under denial of counsel is a violation of that right. And don't be silly: there isn't any right to stab, so convicting someone of stabbing wouldn't violate an ECHR right regardless of whether counsel is appointed.

We know that the ECHR are interested in the entitlement to counsel from 'the outset of police questioning,' but that means the questioning of people who have become suspects. It can't apply to every witness interview in every investigation, the idea's absurd. And I doubt that the ECHR can take it on themselves to argue that the Squadra Mobile, on the evening of 5 November, already had probable cause against Knox -- because they just didn't. They didn't.

Sure they will. They'll just decide when Knox became a "suspect" for purposes of the ECHR, and that's the point at which her procedural rights will attach. It won't be difficult to decide that the rights attached before the cops asked her to sign the 1:45 statement, and they'll be helped along by the decision of the second instance court concerning callunnia (the one that says that she "did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes)").

There might be an issue with police interviewing people as witnesses when really there's a plan to make a case against them, but even then, that's pulling a 'legal fast one.' And the thing about a legal fast one is, it's legal. And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about that. The safeguard remains: the statement is not taken under caution, so it's not directly useable on the main charge.

If there is a "plan to make a case against them," then either the person is already a suspect or the police are plotting to frame someone they don't think is a suspect. But, the ECHR has a simple solution: (i) determine when the procedural rights attached, and (ii) prohibit any conviction based on statements elicited in violation of those rights.

Knox herself testified that police did not suggest Lumumba's guilt, it was her own invention. And, unhappily for the Groupies, there's the 'memoriale', written in her own hand, in her own words, in her own time, unprompted, where she repeats the calunnia. The ECHR will only lose credibility if it takes much notice of such a frivolous application.

The subsequent documents don't matter at all, because the rights were violated and the rights violation was continuing until counsel was provided. None of it can be used. I've never understood why they allowed the subsequent statements to be used, because they denied her counsel for three days, and therefore no conviction can be premised on these statements regardless of whether Knox wrote them on her own volition.
 
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It's not and it is totally absurd. One only need to watch videos like this and the guy climbing the outside wall to come to the conclusion that there isn't a scrap of evidence that supports "the staged break in theory". And in fact all the available evidence proves the opposite.

The prosecution says things like it is suspicious that they didn't find any glass outside....not that I think they actually really looked. Still, watching how glass breaks it's damn clear that their would be at most an extremely tiny amount that would find it's way outside. In fact their point about the lack of glass outside proves the opposite. That the rock was thrown from outside the window just as you would expect from a burglar.

If you have read anything about cat burglars or watched any program about them, they can find their way up multiple floors by climbing windows and such. It is amazing just how high on seemingly sheer surfaces they can climb.

I would also add that I believe I remember reading about several cat burglars become rapists.

I again ask all the pro guilt side if you can come up with any crime even a little like what what Amanda and Raff are accused of doing?
 
tsig,

IIRC The police found a pseudo-witness who claimed that Lumumba's bar was closed that night. Kaosium may remember better than I do.

He was called something like Vulpano Pasquale. It's just possible he was talking about an earlier part of the evening but it's pretty cool how, on 6th or 7th Nov, they found this person who was able to recall whether Le Chic was closed a week or so before.
 
That statement means they really wanted to get Patrick so why did they drop the case against him and not frame him as you claim the did to Amanda? If they could falsify evidence and suborn perjury against Amanda they could do it to Patrick.


They did suborn perjury against Patrick, remember the guy who gave a statement on November 7th saying Patrick's bar was closed that night? However, twenty-some people (eventually) giving him an alibi was probably considered too many to overcome, plus they found the actual murderer so they could pretend their original theory was still valid and they hadn't made a mistake but could then use Patrick's arrest against Amanda.
 
Dear Hugo: You're very wrong.



No. This is very simple: there is an ECHR right to be silent, and convicting someone on the basis of statements made under denial of counsel is a violation of that right. And don't be silly: there isn't any right to stab, so convicting someone of stabbing wouldn't violate an ECHR right regardless of whether counsel is appointed.



Sure they will. They'll just decide when Knox became a "suspect" for purposes of the ECHR, and that's the point at which her procedural rights will attach. {1} It won't be difficult to decide that the rights attached before the cops asked her to sign the 1:45 statement, and they'll be helped along by the decision of the second instance court concerning callunnia (the one that says that she "did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes)").



If there is a "plan to make a case against them," then either the person is already a suspect or the police are plotting to frame someone they don't think is a suspect. But, the ECHR has a simple solution: (i) determine when the procedural rights attached, and (ii) prohibit any conviction based on statements elicited in violation of those rights.



The subsequent documents don't matter at all, because the rights were violated and the rights violation was continuing until counsel was provided. None of it can be used. {2} I've never understood why they allowed the subsequent statements to be used, because they denied her counsel for three days, and therefore no conviction can be premised on these statements regardless of whether Knox wrote them on her own volition.[/QUOTE]

{Highlighting and numbers added}

1. Her right to have an attorney and to remain silent, IMO, started when she was asked to enter the interrogation room. That put her under custody, in effect. She did not volunteer to enter the interrrogation room or to give information.

2l Because they are violators of human rights.
ETA: IIUC, the judges in Italy are appointed by other, higher level judges; there is no review of who becomes a judge by Parliament. Thus the judiciary are generally independent of the "will of the people". The senior-most judges after WW II had learned their craft under the inquisitional system and the fascist-era Code of Criminal Procedure, although perhaps not all agreed with fascism. Those judges appointed the next level of judges. Thus change is slow in the Italian judiciary.
 
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If you have read anything about cat burglars or watched any program about them, they can find their way up multiple floors by climbing windows and such. It is amazing just how high on seemingly sheer surfaces they can climb.

I would also add that I believe I remember reading about several cat burglars become rapists.

I again ask all the pro guilt side if you can come up with any crime even a little like what what Amanda and Raff are accused of doing?

They can't and they won't. This prosecution and persecution is not based on logic but on wild speculation and some bizarrely creative minds. Sure, it is possible that a young woman would have such incredible sexual power that she could get two young men of incredibly short acquaintance to kill for her. Please find another example we ask. They can't and they won't.
 
He was called something like Vulpano Pasquale. It's just possible he was talking about an earlier part of the evening but it's pretty cool how, on 6th or 7th Nov, they found this person who was able to recall whether Le Chic was closed a week or so before.

Are you sure Anglo? I thought Pasquale was the police officer who questioned Quintavalle a few days after the murder.
 
1. Her right to have an attorney and to remain silent, IMO, started when she was asked to enter the interrogation room. That put her under custody, in effect. She did not volunteer to enter the interrrogation room or to give information.

2l Because they are violators of human rights.

One problem that the pro guilt side has is that they don't seem to understand that it does not matter if Amanda and Raff are innocent or guilty when the police and prosecution violate the defendant's human rights.
 
Are you sure Anglo? I thought Pasquale was the police officer who questioned Quintavalle a few days after the murder.

No, that was Inspector Volturno. Anglo had the name mostly right, and your confusion is understandable considering what the actual full name was: Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale. As for Anglo's caveat, were there not so many other witnesses to alibi Patrick, Pasquale would have been used to prove Patrick 'lied' about opening his bar at 5-6 PM. Pasquale claimed it was closed at 7 PM and then again later in the evening. After all they don't care in the slightest that Curatolo's times don't add up, (and actually give Amanda and Raffaele an 'alibi' until nearly midnight) it's that his pathetic testimony 'proves' they're 'lying' about being at Raffaele's that night.

Here's part of the Matteini Report I linked above regarding Patrick and Pasquale, I needed my memory refreshed as well.

These statements can be confirmed, albeit indirectly, by some objective facts concerning the time at which the Le Chic pub opened. In fact while Lumumba stated during the review hearing that he opened the pub at about 17:00-18:00 on the afternoon of 1st November, it appears that the first till receipts began to be issued at 22:29. The suspect was not able to give any logical explanation for this, and could not give specific details about possible customers who could attest to his presence at the pub before 22:29; his identification of a person who entered his pub at 20:00 solely by the name Usi, without providing either a telephone number or any other means of identifying him – notwithstanding the fact he described him as a friend – certainly does not qualify as a precise indication able to provide the appropriate confirmation.

It should further be noted that when the Court addressed this objection to the suspect, he remained silent for some minutes, trying to justify this “void” with the supposition that the till receipts are not issued at the time the order is made but when the customer leaves the pub.

This explanation does not hold up either in that it does not explain why there are no till receipts from 18:00 to 22:29, and why these start to be issued with increasing regularity from 22:29 up until closing.

Further confirmation that the pub was closed before the above-mentioned time can be found in the statements from one of the regular customers, Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale, who was heard [13] on 7/11/2007. He stated he had noted that the pub was closed at about 19:00 on the 1st November, and that he had also noticed the same thing later on when he returned from the pizzeria.
 
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