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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Right, and if they interrogated her in violation of her rights, and then used the ensuing statement to convict her, then the entire Calunnia proceeding is unfair. This is obvious.

What? The calunnia proceeding started only weeks later.
The calunnia is a crime that was committed by Amanda Knox, long before any calunnia charges were filed.
She committed a crime and there is no "status" excuse for those who commit crimes. You commit a crime if you commit a calunnia no matter what your legal status is or what you are doing, or whether others are doing well or not their job. You may not commit crimes, and can't use alleged violations to justify them: can't stab a police officer, not even if he is doing something that turns out to be irregular.
Knox was not a person being interrogated as a suspect of calunnia without a lawyer, neither formally nor informally, so there can't be any failure to provede a "status" of suspect for the charge of calunnia: she was not. She only committed a calunnia, and this is a crime.
 
It's ridiculous to use the word "lie". I don't believe she "lies".
I've already said I found she is just not so accurate, this goes in general about information about the Kercher case, and thus I don't consider her an accurate source. The only accurate sources actually are direct sources.
That should be sufficient, and I think your talking again about Nadeau is a change of topic: the topic is that you don't have direct sources. Italian language quotes of what De Felice said.
Again: I want to be clear so I repeat it: I am saying that you can't quote De Felice. I am not saying that Nadeau reported badly neither that she reported falsely: but rather than what she reports is of no interest (moreover even if she were correct she would be incomplete) and - just focus just on this - that you can't find a quote yourself.

My observation was just a side-topic.

De Felice comments, in fact, were absolutely non-suspicious as for what concerns Patrick Lumumba, while they do reveal that the police thought that Knox was lying since the very beginning. But this is not something that implies any police wrongdoing, or any unfairness Knox's calunnia conviction.



Hmm. So do you or do you not think that the police - as of, say, 10.30pm on 5th November 2007 - suspected Knox of a criminal offence?

(Just to be clear, lying to the police in a murder investigation to protect a murderer is a criminal offence, right....?)
 
Yet that 'very small number' is still the highest in their history and Italy is still the most common violator amongst Western European nations.

Absolutely not.

Italy is not the most common violator (unless you count the violations since 1959), but anyway, any honest comparison should take in account the ratios like state populations and number of trials.
And also, a concept like "Western European" is quite nonsense. Are Austria, Germany or Slovenia, 'Western', or 'Eastern' countries?
 
Hmm. So do you or do you not think that the police - as of, say, 10.30pm on 5th November 2007 - suspected Knox of a criminal offence?

(Just to be clear, lying to the police in a murder investigation to protect a murderer is a criminal offence, right....?)

They certainly thought she lied or omitted things that she knew and was probably covering up for someone. Whether this is a criminal offence, it's a secondary matter and may be treated separately on a judicial level. I mean sometimes is not a crime (for example if the person protected by the lie is a husband or a boyfriend, or a child or a parent; and also if the witness was under threat), or sometimes is not punishable (if the witness becomes a cooperator), and there are also precedents where it was processed as an unconnected crime. But all this is secondary.
The real point that matters by the law, is that there was not specific evidence of a charge of murder.
The fact that someone is suspected of a secondary connected crime does not prevent the police from calling him/her as a witness in a more serious investigation. The interest of going on with the investigation prevails over the defendants rights. The crime for which the police is investigating is a more important issue than the crime for which the person is suspected, and the suspects' rights for that charge are not the priority.
 
This is garbage. There's not a single case that says that the police can interrogate a suspect sans counsel and then use the ensuing statements as the basis for a conviction. In fact some countries have been censured for the practice of arresting suspects for minor crimes and then using illegally-extracted confessions to prosecute more serious crimes.

The terminology "illegally-extracted confessions" does not get even near our case.
Knox committed a calunnia, she was found guilty of a crime for which she was not being investigated at the time.
 
Anyone is in the position to say that the case of using incriminating statements that were made while being a suspect without a lawyer, it's a complaint that cannot be raised with the ECHR against Knox's calunnia conviction, because before her interrogation she was not suspected of calunnia (this crime it had not been committed yet).
It's rather obvious.



Well first, this entails a potentially false reasoning: the ECHR principle does not mean that a police inaccuracy would automatically invalidate a trial. It all depends in fact on how the the courts use the defendant's statements.

But above all this can't have anything to do with Knox's submission to the ECHR, because her complaint can be about a final conviction for calunnia and nothing else.
The calunnia is a crime that was committed subsequently to all the police activities we talk about, it would have been impossible for them to "suspect" her of that crime either formally or informally.
This in fact cuts off the case example from the possible topics of the ECHR calunnia submission: it has nothing to do with it. We are not talking about the use of incriminating statements. Here we have a series of statements, from Knox, a repeated behaviour which is a crime itself, so we have a new criminal event, it's something of a totally different nature.



But it's not an issue per se. The matter of interest for the ECHR is about how the courts may use the statements from the persons in this status, not the fact that the police calls them.

The court may not use an incriminating statement per se without a lawyer present - you are not paying attention!

Of course Ms Knox was not a suspect in the calunia case prior to interrogation. But she was a suspect in the murder case and without benefit of counsel, during an interrogation, "committed" the offence of calunia, it is argued, in the course of providing a self incriminating statement in the murder case, which she subsequently withdrew. The "offence" was committed therefore, during the course of an illegal interrogation.

The court cannot demand the separation of issues which are not separable. The proximate cause of her prosecution for calunia was the denial of counsel. Nothing she says is admissible. Indeed, it is the Hellmann court which records Ms Knox's status as that of suspect and it is this court's decision to convict in the calunia case which the ISC confirmed. Without a lawyer present, nothing she says gets in to either trial. Of course one supposes that the court may be asked to look at matters in relation to length of trial, inhuman treatment etc in addition.
 
Exactly. The English translation of the quote is repeated (with those minor translation variables that you note) in several reputable media reports.

For a start, it's virtually inconceivable that Nadeau or any other reporter - regardless of what one may think of their reporting skills or bias - would make up (or even embellish) direct and attributed quotes from a senior public official. Secondly, it's virtually inconceivable that Newsweek and all the other reputable publications that ran with the quote would not have satisfied themselves that the quote was accurate and reliable.

It's abundantly clear that de Felice was rather enjoying the Perugia police being the centre of attention, and that he was basking in the self-adulatory glow of "solving the crime" in the presence of the world's media. It's therefore totally clear to me that he said these words - probably in the presence of a throng of English-language-media reporters, and possibly after the press conference formalities had finished. He simply couldn't help himself from embellishing the story to show just how "ahead of the game" his magnificent police department had been: "Ah well, my men (and, ahem, women) were so good that they had it all figured out already, and it was only a question of waiting for Knox and Sollecito to confess".

And, as I said before, I find it very hard to believe that de Felice was flat-out lying - or even falsely embellishing - when he spoke these words. Rather, he knew with certainty that the police had "figured out" the crime before they brought Sollecito, then Knox, in for interrogation that night, and that the entire purpose of the interrogations was to get first Sollecito, then Knox, to "buckle" and "admit the truth".

I'm not convinced that Machiavelli is correct in that it didn't make any Italian publications, but if that's the case wouldn't it be ironic if the reason all those English-speaking publications used that quote (and Italian ones didn't) was because it was included in a press packet ILE distributed (but with the original quote still in Italian) to English-speaking reporters? In other words there's a hard copy of it somewhere?

It reminds me of the extraordinarily interesting 'translations' made of Amanda's note and (presumably) her story. Those were originally in English and then 'translated' to Italian but ended up distorted somehow when they made the English-speaking press. That must have come from ILE because I agree with you that (most) reporters take quotes very seriously and John Follain would not have included that bogus version of her story (the one with Edgar and his brother) for his June 15, 2008 Times article where the ending was changed from the two brothers fighting to a graphic rape scene. I'd be willing to bet ILE included that in another handout to reporters as well.
 
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"Clearly" my cojones. To conclude Comodi lied, you would need at least a consequential purpose for the alleged lie, you would also need to show the relevance of stating falsely about that time difference in that statement, and show how this hypothetical liecwould be relevant. You should also point out why, if the alleged lie was somehow relevant, the defence didn‘t object by correcting the information (maybe because they didn't like to point out that a 12.47 call did occur).


What is clear is that Machiavelli hasn't got a clue what has happened by 12:47 that would make a young college student in a far away land want to call her mother.


Prove it then. Maybe I should tell you, before, that the defence failed to prove it in courtroom.


Machiavelli lies again. The defense did prove it in the court room. But more important, this is not a court room. This is an International Skeptics Forum. Appeal to the authority of the court is just another fallacy.


The postal police wrote their briefing before any interrogation of Knox or Sollecito took place. And nobody proved they were wrong.


The time to write the facts is when they are gathered, not when the prosecution is trying to solidify their case.


I said the police and prosecution had nothing to do with the publishing of the picture in a British tabloid, which the only thing that would matter when referring to a theory that the police "lied".


And that is simply a lie. You know that the police were in the cottage during an official police investigation and that they were taking photos with their little pocket cameras. And you know (or at least you should know by now) that the photo that was published was one taken by a little pocket camera and not one of the Nikons that were being used for the official photos that were entered in the case file. There is no reasonable explanation for how the photo came to be published other than the police officer that took the photo had a direct hand in causing it to be released.


As for the release of the photos, what we know is there is no evidence that the "police" (meaning some individual) had anything to do with their release (and surely there is no reason to assume that the prosecution could have something to do with it). This because many parties could access the file. But even if there was evidence that one officer gave the pictures to a third party or sold the photos to the press agency (there isn‘t), this would be meaningless, since the British tabloid bought tge whole set from a press agency and decided alone on their initiative what to publish and write. You should acknowledge that this means the claim that the police "used" a bathroom picture for propaganda is false.


At the time that the photos were published, had the prosecution released to the defense the nature of the testing that had taken place in that bathroom? Had the police or prosecution taken any steps to correct the misinformation that was being attributed to that photo? Even if the police and/or prosecution didn't directly tell the press that the photo represented the bloody mess in the bathroom after the murder, by keeping silent they were letting the story play for propaganda which is just as bad.


There is no point in this, even the FBI handbooks reports that whenevere there is a staging of a crime (burglary, rape) at a murder scene, the stager and murderer is the one leads the police to the discovery of the body.


Sounds like someone with a really broken sense of reality is trying to understand a technical discussion that is way over their head. You probably know you are botching the interpretation and that's why you won't actually quote your sources.
 
Actually, nobody among the innoocentisti is able to sort out the ludicrous contradictions of their lone wolf scenario (take just the failure to explain latest simple points such as how did Guede manage to step on pillow, or deal with evidence contrary to post mortem sexual abuse theory).


My name is Dan O. stop calling me nobody.
 
Absolutely not.

Italy is not the most common violator (unless you count the violations since 1959), but anyway, any honest comparison should take in account the ratios like state populations and number of trials.

Yes, Italy has the most number of violations in the history of that body. It doesn't look much better when adjusted for population either.

And also, a concept like "Western European" is quite nonsense. Are Austria, Germany or Slovenia, 'Western', or 'Eastern' countries?

It's an idiom, do you truly not understand the concept?
 
Anyone is in the position to say that the case of using incriminating statements that were made while being a suspect without a lawyer, it's a complaint that cannot be raised with the ECHR against Knox's calunnia conviction, because before her interrogation she was not suspected of calunnia (this crime it had not been committed yet).
It's rather obvious.



Well first, this entails a potentially false reasoning: the ECHR principle does not mean that a police inaccuracy would automatically invalidate a trial. It all depends in fact on how the the courts use the defendant's statements.

But above all this can't have anything to do with Knox's submission to the ECHR, because her complaint can be about a final conviction for calunnia and nothing else.
The calunnia is a crime that was committed subsequently to all the police activities we talk about, it would have been impossible for them to "suspect" her of that crime either formally or informally. This in fact cuts off the case example from the possible topics of the ECHR calunnia submission: it has nothing to do with it. We are not talking about the use of incriminating statements. Here we have a series of statements, from Knox, a repeated behaviour which is a crime itself, so we have a new criminal event, it's something of a totally different nature.



But it's not an issue per se. The matter of interest for the ECHR is about how the courts may use the statements from the persons in this status, not the fact that the police calls them.



Above you have made comments referring to "procedural mistakes" by the police as not justifying a violation re ECHR. That struck me as particularly peculiar. What other sort of mistake could it be? Substantive? What is the contrast? The emphasis on that word seems to be in effort to diminish the importance of the underlying substantive right - the right to counsel. Surely you don't think of that right as "just procedural"?

And now as in the highlighted area above you applying procedure to trump a substantive right. Whereas before the police mistake in procedure was not valid reason (per you) to create a violation per ECHR. This is a tricky turn of logic.

With respect to this recent assertion, highlighted above, are you sure you mean to say that? Isn't the right and need for an attorney - and provision thereof - the very thing that would have prevented the statements that you call calunnia? I can think of no better reason to provide an attorney. The statements used as the basis for calunnia most undoubtedly flow from the nature of the charges she was suspected of (murder) and the investigation of those charges. If you are to maintain that the "procedure" of providing an attorney depends upon the specific charges that the officers have in mind then this is surely a disregard for her basic right to an attorney once under interrogation. I will let you argue the fact re interrogation. I believe Numbers above laid out a list of reasons she was way more than an interested witness or whatever. I.e., buckled when she said things they new were not true, and screaming etc. Hardly a voluntary situation - unless you consider that a "generous offering" by the police of some Lennonesque scream therapy, all out of the kindness of their hearts. But that is another subject.
 
Ah, nothing like a good old bit of misrepresentation! The refuge of the dissembler.....

What I actually wrote regarding this issue was that it is eminently possible that the police (or other first responders) may have moved Kercher's body or the pillow, such that the relative position of the body and the pillow as seen in certain police photographs may well not have been the position in which Guede left the body/pillow.
(...)

That is exactly what I have understood. But I think it's equivalent of saying the "police" has placed the pillow in that position. I don't think it's a misrepresentation of your words.
I understand you see "moving" as different from "placing in that position", but in fact even if you just look at the place where the shoe prints were found, you will have to struggle to think how this pillow could have been placed in a hypothetical first moment so that stepping on it would be possible. I suppose you would need to move it quite a lot. You would have to factually "change its position", maybe rotate it, it's not a movement that simple, a body is quite heavvy (and covered by a duvet).
I did not focus on details like the wet parts of the pillow, the watery substance which is likely the result of the lying of a body for over 12 hours (I avoided unpleasant details, from which you can infer where the body was; unfortunately this is the true side of death).
Note: in the above statements I put quotation commas on the word "police", to point out how you address it in a way that may seem purposely vague. In fact, you shift from the "first respondents" (the postal police) to the "forensic police".
I would rather point out that the forensics photographed and video recorded all their actions, from the beginning of their work, including the moment when they lifted the duvet and uncovered the body. Wverything of this is recorded and we can all assume that the pillow was already exactly where it was photographed.
So the only possible "culprits" for allegedly changing the location of the pillow could have been those "first respondents", that is Battistelli and Marzi, and then fifteen minutes later, Monica Napoleoni and Profazio. After them it was Mignini.
In your scenario, they would have lifted the duvet, slightly lifted the body and pulled the pillow to some different position, then covered the body with the duvet again.
I suppose you don't think this theory is slightly foolish.

(And, for the record, I also wrote that it was perhaps more likely that Guede himself shifted the relative position of Kercher's body and the pillow subsequent to him having stepped on the left side of the pillow - possibly when he was pulling the duvet more from under the body in order to free up enough of the duvet to cover the body fully.)

So, this means when the pillow was in its "original" position, the alleged semen stain was not between Meredith's legs, but in some other location, at one side (this may change a bit the circumstantial picture). But this is not the point. The problem is that if Guede shifted the pillow after he had already bloody shoe, he must have left shoeprints around the body; he must have done some further things in the room after his post-mortem sexual abuse and thus he must have had left more shoe prints, since he had already stepped on blood. But instead, we only have those prints walking away along an exit path.

These alleged further activities by Rudy Guede performed wearing bloody shoes are a further postulate which files in the face of the physical evidence: there are no blood shoepritns except those leaving the room, and those on the pillow.
The prints on the pillow and those teaving the room are obviously connected. There are no steps in between. There is a very limited number of steps that we have after the stepping on the pillow, all walking away: his steps are counted, there is no room within these limited movements for further activities like shifting the pillow, pulling the duvet from a side or doing other strange things.
 
(...)
With respect to this recent assertion, highlighted above, are you sure you mean to say that? Isn't the right and need for an attorney - and provision thereof - the very thing that would have prevented the statements that you call calunnia? I can think of no better reason to provide an attorney. The statements used as the basis for calunnia most undoubtedly flow from the nature of the charges she was suspected of (murder) and the investigation of those charges. If you are to maintain that the "procedure" of providing an attorney depends upon the specific charges that the officers have in mind then this is surely a disregard for her basic right to an attorney once under interrogation. (...)

The reasoning above is unacceptable, it's not an argument. A calunnia is a crime equivalent to stabbing a passer by, it's like let's say stabbing a police officer. You may say: had my lawyer been there, I wouldn't have stabbed that police officer. My attorney would have given counsel, he would have prevented me from doing so. That could even be true, but this is not an argument! You are not supposed to stab people, under any circumstance. You are not supposed to need that lawyer gives you counsel to prevent you from doing so, or to require that others respect your rights or the right procedure in order to refrain from stabbing officers.
You can't stab officers full stop.

There cannot be a "condition" on this, a depending on if this right or this procedure is respected, or a depending on if you have already the due technical counsel.
You can't link you refrain from committing a crime, to something like suspects rights, status, police conduct or procedures.

Now, you say the statements used to convict her for the charge of calunnia flow from the "nature of the charges she was suspected of", but this is just false. You seem to omit the fundamental element of the crime of calunnia, which is malice, and the nature of voluntary criminal behaviour in general which is the determination of free will. Actually, the statements for which she has been convicted do not "flow" down directly "from the nature of the charge for which she was investigated", they rather stem from Knox's decision and free will, this moment of her own decision being the crucial point. Unless a judge established that Knox - for some reason - had no faculty to understand and will in that moment, her calunnia conviction means the judges found that she made her statements because she decided to make them. They do not flow out from somewhre else.
The decision of Knox to place false evidence against an innocent, not "the nature of the crime", is the fundamental step that determines the conviction. This is why the statements are used for the conviction.
 
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The reasoning above is unacceptable, it's not an argument. A calunnia is a crime equivalent to stabbing a passer by, it's like let's say stabbing a police officer. You may say: if my lawyer wasn't there, I wouldn't have stabbed that police officer. The lawyere would have preventd me from doing so. Well, maybe that could even be true, but this is not an argument! You are not supposed to stab people, under any circumstance. You are not supposed to need that lawyer gives you counsel to prevent you from doing so, or to require that others respect your rights or the right procedure in order to refrain from stabbing officers.
You can't stab officers full stop.

There cannot be a "condition" on this, a depending on if this right or this procedure is respected, or a depending on if you have already the due technical counsel.
You can't link you refrain from committing a crime, to something like suspects rights, status, police conduct or procedures.

Now, you say the statements used to convict her for the charge of calunnia flow from the "nature of the charges she was suspected of", but this is just false. You seem to omit the fundamental element of the crime of calunnia, which is malice, and the nature of voluntary criminal behaviour in general which is the determination of free will. Actually, the statements for which she has been convicted do not "flow" down directly "from the nature of the charge for which she was investigated", they rather stem from Knox's decision and free will, this moment of her own decision being the crucial point. Unless a judge established that Knox - for some reason - had no faculty to understand and will in that moment, her calunnia conviction means the judges found that she made her statements because she decided to make them. They do not flow out from somewhre else.
The decision of Knox to place false evidence against an innocent, not "the nature of the crime", is the fundamental step that determines the conviction. This is why the statements are used for the conviction.

So according to you, any coerced confessions or accusations can form the basis for a callunia, defamation or obstruction conviction. What a stupid law that would be, since preventing such police abuses is the exact reason for the right of access to counsel.

Fortunately, what you are saying is not the law, it's just a foolish hope if yours.
 
There was not clear evidence on them for a charge of murder.
We agree about this too. That has remained the case throughout :D

But, to be serious, there need not be clear evidence in order for a person to be suspected of a crime. In this country, the existence of clear evidence obliges the police to charge the suspect without any pussy footing about it. Second, your fall back position does not work. You have sought to maintain they were 'only' suspected of covering up or of some other lesser degree of involvement. Even if that were true, and given the content of the 1.45 and 5.45 documents it might be although I doubt it, they were still suspected of having something to do with the specific crime the police were investigating and were consequently entitled to legal assistance which, beyond any shadow of a doubt, would have transformed the course and conduct of this case utterly.
 
We agree about this too. That has remained the case throughout :D

But, to be serious, there need not be clear evidence in order for a person to be suspected of a crime. In this country, the existence of clear evidence obliges the police to charge the suspect without any pussy footing about it. Second, your fall back position does not work. You have sought to maintain they were 'only' suspected of covering up or of some other lesser degree of involvement. Even if that were true, and given the content of the 1.45 and 5.45 documents it might be although I doubt it, they were still suspected of having something to do with the specific crime the police were investigating and were consequently entitled to legal assistance which, beyond any shadow of a doubt, would have transformed the course and conduct of this case utterly.

anglo,

The ECHR violation of Article 6.3c and thus leading to violation of Article 6.1 doesn't require, as far as I can tell, that a person be suspected of anything. Although, anyone being interrogated by police, in their custody, probably is suspected of something. But I think what counts is the interrogation/custody without counsel (lawyer), which usually produces a statement of a crime previously committed, but for the present case produces a statement which is the crime alleged.

Now, for the present case, if the police, having extracted the odd and false statements from Amanda and Raffaele, had realized that these statements are untrue and not probative, and everyone including AK and RS had gone home for a good night's sleep and the police had waited for the DNA and other forensic results, and went on to check them against "persons of interest" (using the newish US terminology) things would have been, presumably, different. But instead, they arrested Amanda and Raffaele and Patrick, and over the course of two trials, Amanda was convicted of calunnia - confirmed by the CSC. And the evidence of the calunnia, and the crime itself, is solely based on statements she made during the interrogation and the few days following, when she had no lawyer. [Please correct me if there is any error in that statement.] Thus arises the violation of Convention Article 6.1 resulting from violation of Article 6.3c.

Now suppose ECtHR judged in accordance with the last sentence above. Then, in a hypothetical retrial of Amanda for calunnia, her statements alleged to constitute calunnia would be inadmissible; there would be no crime and no evidence of a crime. Now, I believe a panel of judges composed of Mach-clones would still convict her of calunnia (because who really needs evidence?) but I don't think this would stand. More likely, I think the calunnia case would vanish.
 
Actually, nobody among the innoocentisti is able to sort out the ludicrous contradictions of their lone wolf scenario (take just the failure to explain latest simple points such as how did Guede manage to step on pillow, or deal with evidence contrary to post mortem sexual abuse theory). Let alone prove the maybe 15-20 unsupported postulates they require to make their conspiracy theory work (all of them have a burden of proof on the claimant, besides being foolish, like for examole LJ's suggestion that the "police" placed the pillow in that position under Meredith's body). We won't go so far as how they would deal with the autopsy report, or with the alterative substance and dynamic for the luminol prints, or with the measurements of the bathmat print, or with the repeated calunnia by Knox... etc..)

Machiavelli - each time you repeat this lie, someone needs to repeat that.....

Eight of the nine experts who Massei heard, said that a lone wolf scenario was very possible. I have no idea the ratio of guilter experts to innocentisti experts who believed this, but I wish you would stop passing on this lie: Actually, nobody among the innoocentisti is able to sort out the ludicrous contradictions of their lone wolf scenario.
 
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I point out that still nobody was able to present a source with a quote from DeFelice's press conference.
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Here's one source:

I heard Meredith scream says girl in student sex murder - Italy
Published: 00:00, Thu, November 8, 2007
By JOHN CHAPMAN AND MARCO

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/24505/I-heard-Meredith-scream-says-girl-in-student-sex-murder

"' ...Lots of people came and went through her house and she was unfortunately at the crossroads when this group came together.' De Felice also confirmed the contents of the statements that had been published in Italian newspapers but refused to add any further detail.

"He said that the three had continually changed their stories and that things 'just didn’t add up.' He explained: 'Initially the American gave a version of events which we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts that we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in... '"

d

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This needs to be continually bumped, or pegged to Machiavelli.

ETA - Machiavelli has now given conflicting testimony. Doninno says that Amanda did not want to talk, yet Mignini says she does. Donnino says that this unwillingness to talk needed to be met with "mediation" so as to get her to implicate herself. Yet, Mignini says Amanda freely and without coercion needed to talk, to "rid herself of a burden."

Machiavelli - who is correct: Donnino or Mignini?

- Donnino said she acted as if a mediator because Knox was not talking. Donnino, as even you admit, shifted gears from being a translator to getting Knox to open up by imagining things. But the point is: Donnino said Knox did not want to talk.

- Mignini, who without asking Knox a single question intuited that Knox needed to talk and make spontaneous statements, and so volunteered to act "as if a notary".​

Which person is correct?
 
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