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Does anyone here actually oppose Network Neutrality?

There's no competition because the ISPs work to prevent competing. How do you "fix that"?
By asking how to fix it, does that mean you see it as disadvantage, opening the door to rent-seeking? Or are you fine with monopolistic internet service providers and just want to impose more regulations to try to fend off this rent-seeking?

Because if it is the latter I don't know why you would ask how to engender competition.

If it is the former--as I have said several times--it is something that has been done in many countries and is commonly known as local loop un-bundling, coupled with laying open-access service requirements on the owners of local exchange networks*. When ISPs compete rent-seeking manifesting as double-charging and throttling do not tend to happen. Traffic management still does, and two-sided markets still do (and those benefit customers, or else they get competed away)

*There has already been a lot of noise that this "can't be done in the US" from those who prefer the net neutrality route on practical grounds, but several of those folks agree that greater competition and LLU would be better.
 
Wheelchair ramps. Automatic doors. Your argument is invalid.
Yup, all disabled people have exactly the same set of physical disabilities, and have no problem getting out and around to the shops. Not at all difficult to get transportation and/or parking, navigate crowds, coordinate some sort of assistance, and so on. Not like there's anyone that has challenges that are not easily resolved by special ramps and doors, nope, none at all. As long as there are ramps and doors, there won't be any difficulty at all for any kind of disabled person. :rolleyes:

Name me one Internet store where you can try clothes on before you buy them. That's right, there is no such thing.
Which is completely irrelevant, and not even close to what I said. Most of them allow you to return items for exchange or refund if they do not fit; amounting to effectively the same thing. I've availed myself of that service multiple times.

Yup, that's sure invalid. :rolleyes:

Did I say any such thing?
Effectively, yes; since you're treating the advent of the Internet as if it's some great world-destroying monster because people are allowed to say things you disagree with.

There's a vast difference between what you're talking about and what I'm talking about. Religions had a threat of eternal damnation and promise of salvation to go with it, which is what allowed it to flourish and survive. Conspiracy theories and homeopathy don't exactly have such a thing and was the stuff of weird little people that existed on the fringes of society.
Huh? This makes no sense. Are you saying that almost no one believed in conspiracy theories and "alternative" medicine prior to the Internet? 'Cause there are centuries of history, and millions of books, pamphlets, and radio and television broadcasts that prove you wrong.

Just funny that people said exactly the same thing you are saying about the Internet, about pretty much every single communication technology ever created; and yet the world is getting better, not worse. I suggest you actually take a while and study real history, not some distorted golden-age nonsense. I hear there are a lot of good educational resources on the Internet.

All of a sudden along comes the Internet which allowed these people to get together and spread their message in ways they couldn't before to people who might never have been exposed to them before. In what way is this good?
This is patently nonsense. But assuming it's true, I'd say it's good; because shining a light on nonsense is always an important step to refuting it. The answer to bad speech isn't censorship, because censorship never works. It never has, even in the most oppressive totalitarian societies, and it never will. Better to get all the nonsense out into the light where it can be seen clearly for what it is, and critically examined and refuted.

Interesting that every every attempt to force a belief system and censor "undesirable" truths has failed miserably. Also interesting that the first thing every single tyrant and totalitarian government does first is attempt to censor speech and restrict communication technology. It's the cry of every demagogue and would-be cult leader. Restrict what people can say, and you restrict what they can do. Restrict what they can learn, and you can control them more effectively.

The answer to bad speech isn't censorship; the answer is more and better speech.

Nope. I'm not a particularly successful man, and I'm not likely to ever be a scholar. And while I don't always agree with other people's beliefs about anything, I don't consider most of them to be stupid. But geocentricism, alchemy, flat earth, young earth creationism, homeopathy, Trutherisms, et cetera?
So what? You're still making yourself the arbiter of what is proper and what is improper. I've never met anyone who insisted on censorship and other restrictions on speech and behaviour who did not consider themselves fully qualified to decide what other people are allowed to say and do. Rather telling, that. It's just poorly-disguised elitism.

You have to draw the line somewhere and not allow these people the floor, as it were. It's a waste of time and resources to allow it.
Why? You keep saying that, but saying does not make it true. This is just another argumentum ad nauseum fallacy. Provide evidence and logic to support your assertion. Right now, you sound like just another petty demagogue insisting that he be allowed to run the world to suit his own personal preferences and prejudices.
 
Ad's never skip or stutter or buffer. They always play flawlessly, even when everything else you try to watch is bogged down and buffering and stuttering.
Nonsense. I have just as much problem with ads as I do with every other piece of streaming media. Sometimes worse, since they're typically higher-quality (and therefore higher bandwidth) than many of the other stuff I watch.

They are clearly given preferential treatment in terms of bandwidth and importance. Should it be like that? Has anyone EVER seen an ad stutter, buffer or fail to load fully? I sure never have.

Argument from incredulity is a fallacy.
 
Why do we need net neutrality laws at all? It's not like corporations are ever unethical.
 
Why do we need net neutrality laws at all? It's not like corporations are ever unethical.
I'd prefer the country to be run by corporation.

1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in the syndicate.
Yossarian: What difference does that make? He's dead.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: Then his family will get it.
Yossarian: He didn't have time to have a family.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: Then his parents will get it.
Yossarian: They don't need it, they're rich.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: Then they'll understand.
 
By asking how to fix it, does that mean you see it as disadvantage, opening the door to rent-seeking? Or are you fine with monopolistic internet service providers and just want to impose more regulations to try to fend off this rent-seeking?

No, and no. I am against monopolistic ISPs. I am asking how you would change it.
 
Many Americans, particularly Republicans, have the misbegotten notion that privatizing and then monetizing everything for as much as the market will bear results in the best possible outcomes.

That is demonstrably not true.

Here's the punchline, it's not a win-lose situation. The game is rigged. The question isn't whether or not Americans will pay an average more than most for bandwidth. The question is how much more will Americans pay?

We already pay more than most.

The New Yorker said:
These figures are taken from an informative 2012 book, “The Fine Print: How Big Companies Use ‘Plain English’ to Rob You Blind,” by David Cay Johnston, a Pulitzer Prize-winning financial reporter.

In Seoul, triple-play packages start at about fifteen dollars a month—yes, fifteen. In Zurich, otherwise a pretty expensive place to live, they start at thirty dollars. When it comes to stand-alone services, it’s a similar story. In Britain, for example, monthly cell-phone charges start at about fifteen dollars; unlimited broadband starts at about twenty-five dollars a month. And, if you buy a television that was built since 2008, you get access to Freeview, a digital television service that provides more than sixty television channels, about thirty radio channels, and about a dozen streaming Internet channels, all at no cost.
 
It isn't with respect to ISP monopolies. Absence of sarcasm there kinda suggests that you (like many NN proponents) are just fine with it. 'Cept you don't wanna say for some reason.
 
Your first "No" looks out of place. You can't be against them and also not see them (monopolistic ISP) as a disadvantage. Please clarify.

I'm saying that that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the question "How do you force competition?"
 
What?

Why does the claim that ISPs don't want more competition feature as a reason (with you) to not argue for more competition?

Why?

Are we trying for anti-trust suits? How can the government force competition between large companies that intentionally do not compete?

Never mind. You are confused and not following your own posts.

That was the issue that has already been addressed in another thread, Francesca. Remember, it would require an anti-trust suit here in the US to acheive what the UK already does: "Force competition." I agree with you: Unbundling like that would be the most desirable outcome. But barring the political willpower to bring a national lawsuit against Comcast, then writing legislation in this political environment we are in to make sure infrastructure owners cannot also be an ISP, is essentially an impossibility. Remember, this is the United States, and we have different laws than the UK. We also have a compeltely different political environment.

NN is a hell of a lot easier and practical at this juncture. And NN doesn't have to be very complex. It's actually quite simple, and so many people are making a mountain out of a molehill. (I even saw one person suggest that Net Neutrality = a new tax! :jaw-dropp )

No. It is very simple:

1. No "slow lanes" or "fast lanes."
2. No "double-dipping."
3. Treat all data equally.

It is as someone else said: It's like water. You pay a certain amount of money per gallon of water you use. It doesn't matter what you use that water for. You piss in it, you drink it, you water your lawn with it. Everyone pays the same exact rate for the amount of water they use. In the case of the internet, you pay a certain rate for a certain speed. Period.
 
Yeah I know it's the same thing so I'm not going over it again here, just wanted to pin down whether others thought competing ISPs were a better solution independent of the politics.

I know you think LLU is impossible, and that NN is peachy. We differ on both counts. All three things you want to outlaw are IMO hard to achieve with any FCC rules in the absence of properly addressing the competition of ISPs. Good luck with them.

(Also with competition fast/slow lanes are perfectly fine and indeed a benefit to customers who want them)
 
You have to draw the line somewhere and not allow these people the floor, as it were. It's a waste of time and resources to allow it.

"Allow it?" Hhhhmmm.....that doesn't sound too....kosher of an argument. Almost....Hitlerish in a way.

I agree with you fundamentally: All of that woo has a great platform called "The Internet." But to suggest that it shouldn't be "allowed" is even crazier than the proponents of woo. Sorry, but I take the concept of free speech VERY, VERY seriously.
 
"Allow it?" Hhhhmmm.....that doesn't sound too....kosher of an argument. Almost....Hitlerish in a way.

I agree with you fundamentally: All of that woo has a great platform called "The Internet." But to suggest that it shouldn't be "allowed" is even crazier than the proponents of woo. Sorry, but I take the concept of free speech VERY, VERY seriously.

Conspiracy theories need to be locked down. They are almost exclusively easily proven lies, but if enough people or the wrong people (like congress) believe in them, they can affect change.

Change the lives of people based on lies, deception and ignorance.
No thank you.
 
Yeah I know it's the same thing so I'm not going over it again here, just wanted to pin down whether others thought competing ISPs were a better solution independent of the politics.

I know you think LLU is impossible, and that NN is peachy. We differ on both counts. All three things you want to outlaw are IMO hard to achieve with any FCC rules in the absence of properly addressing the competition of ISPs. Good luck with them.

(Also with competition fast/slow lanes are perfectly fine and indeed a benefit to customers who want them)

I should have been more clear. I meant to say that at this time LLU is an impossibility. Just like with the ACA, and Obama's illegal immigration executive action, NN would be a stop-gap measure until we can get something more comprehensive in the future. We have this tremendously idiotic large group of people called "The Tea Party" who are...just....absolutely NUTS. I really think there will come a time (hopefully in 2 years) that they lose control of both houses of Congress and the White House again. And a Democratic president can appoint one or two more justices to the SCOTUS.

I wouldn't want to see NN "properly addressing the competition of ISPs." That wouldn't be the goal. The goal would be to disallow Comcast from charging online businesses money so people can access the websites at the speed that they already paid for.

Furthermore, the whole "fast lane/slow lane" thing; When you say it is "fine and indeed a benefit for customers who want them," I don't think you are talking about the "fast lane/slow lane." What you seem to be talking about is options for customers to choose how fast they want their internet speed to be. Of course there should be options. If I wanted cheaper internet service, I would like to have the option of a 25mb/sec download speed, as opposed to 105. Or vice-versa. That's fine.

What we mean by a "fast/slow lane," is that, if you are paying $60/month for 105mb/s, that's what you should receive. Period. No net neutrality means that Comcast can LIMIT your d/l speeds to something lower than 105 if you connect to Boobtube, because Boobtube didn't pay Comcast an extortion like Youtube did. So Boobtube automatically gets put on the "slow lane," and Youtube gets preferential treatment ("The fast lane"), even though you are ALREADY paying the agreed-upon price for 105mb/s! That's ********!

It is also what I keep calling "double-dipping." Comcast thinks they should get paid TWICE (or more) to provide a service to me that I already paid for! Three times, if Boobtube decides to give in to Comcast's blackmail extortion like Youtube did!

I would much rather NN get passed to ensure an "open internet" until we actually get some sensible people in Congress and on the bench so we can bust Comcast for the criminals that they are.
 

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