Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Did you guys debunk the claim Texas Agriculture inspector Henry Marshall was murdered by LBJ's pal Cliff Carter per arrangements made by LBJ's longtime associate Malcolm Wallace?

His son said he had been shot 5 times by a bolt action rifle, and there were signs of a struggle at the scene, and local officials in Texas ruled it was suicide.

Billy Sol Estes testified Cliff Carter and Malcolm Wallace killed Marshall for LBJ because by 1961 Marshall's investigation would topple LBJ. The 1961 Grand Jury concluded Henry Marshall was murdered. Their decision reflects that they believed Billy Sol Estes when he told them that LBJ ordered Malcolm Wallace to have agriculture inspector Henry Marshall killed. Has this been covered here?

How about the the claims LBJ's promiscuous substance abusing sister Josefa was also killed at LBJ's behest because she knew too much and had loose lips?

Was there really a Justice Dept document recording Billy Sol Estes offer to implicate LBJ in 8 murders?

How about Judyth Vary Baker who says she was Oswald's girlfriend and that Oswald was a clandestine U. S. operative that got discarded as a patsy?

Have these been debunked?

How about Antonio Veciana who testified to the House Committee on Assassinations (they concluded the CIA lied) that Oswald worked with or for CIA, meeting with David Atlee Phillips (chief cia western hemisphere, in charge of anti Castro plots) two months before the assassination, and Veciana was shot in the head shortly after testifying.
 
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While living in Dallas Oswald was befriended by Russian born George Demorenschield whon House investigtors determined was a cia contract agent in the Caribbean. IN 1977 Demorenschield supposedly blew his brains out with a shotgun hour before he was to testify before House investigators. However an audio recording set to record a tv show captured a door alarm beeping seconds before the shotgun blast.
 
Thanks Jay.

How about 1/21/64 transcript of Warren Commission executive session reporting Oswald was assigned FBI payroll #179 was being paid $200 per month from September 62 until 11/22/63?

Anything to that, or debunked?
 
JayUtah said:
What did your reading or searching of the thread reveal?
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I dont recall saying I did any, other than days earlier when searching all the thread's pages was fruitless. Thanks for your answers back then and today. I'll take your word instead of doing that again.

Warren Commission has 127 pages for 1 21 64 when it supposedly says Oswald was on FBI payroll. But that wouldnt prove anything anyway.
 
Bubba said:
While living in Dallas Oswald was befriended by Russian born George Demorenschield whon House investigtors determined was a cia contract agent in the Caribbean. IN 1977 Demorenschield supposedly blew his brains out with a shotgun hour before he was to testify before House investigators. However an audio recording set to record a tv show captured a door alarm beeping seconds before the shotgun blast.
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Source for the highlighted, please. Here's a PDF of " "HSCA Volume XII: George de Mohrenschildt"- see if you can find anything here that says he was a "contract agent" for the CIA. The only thing that report says is that DeMohrenschildt, as an American citizen (naturalized 1949) who frequently traveled abroad on business, was contacted, like thousands of other U.S. citizens in similar circumstances, by the CIA's Domestic Contacts Division; this doesn't mean he worked for them.

And the "however" in your last sentence indicates that you think the "door alarm beeping" somehow contradicts the idea that DeMohrenschildt shot himself. I can think of a couple of non-nefarious reasons why it wouldn't; and since he'd tried, by his wife's account, to kill himself four times previously, leading her to having him committed to a mental institution, I think you need a lot more than a mysterious "beeping" to make it anything more than suicide.
 
turingtest said:
Source for the highlighted, please. Here's a PDF of " "HSCA Volume XII: George de Mohrenschildt"- see if you can find anything here that says he was a "contract agent" for the CIA. The only thing that report says is that DeMohrenschildt, as an American citizen (naturalized 1949) who frequently traveled abroad on business, was contacted, like thousands of other U.S. citizens in similar circumstances, by the CIA's Domestic Contacts Division; this doesn't mean he worked for them.

And the "however" in your last sentence indicates that you think the "door alarm beeping" somehow contradicts the idea that DeMohrenschildt shot himself. I can think of a couple of non-nefarious reasons why it wouldn't; and since he'd tried, by his wife's account, to kill himself four times previously, leading her to having him committed to a mental institution, I think you need a lot more than a mysterious "beeping" to make it anything more than suicide.
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I've been in occupied buildings during/after gunfire and it usually sets off whatever smoke alarms are there, fwiw.
 
Bubba said:
Did you guys debunk the claim Texas Agriculture inspector Henry Marshall was murdered by LBJ's pal Cliff Carter per arrangements made by LBJ's longtime associate Malcolm Wallace?

His son said he had been shot 5 times by a bolt action rifle, and there were signs of a struggle at the scene, and local officials in Texas ruled it was suicide.

Billy Sol Estes testified Cliff Carter and Malcolm Wallace killed Marshall for LBJ because by 1961 Marshall's investigation would topple LBJ. The 1961 Grand Jury concluded Henry Marshall was murdered. Their decision reflects that they believed Billy Sol Estes when he told them that LBJ ordered Malcolm Wallace to have agriculture inspector Henry Marshall killed. Has this been covered here?

How about the the claims LBJ's promiscuous substance abusing sister Josefa was also killed at LBJ's behest because she knew too much and had loose lips?

Was there really a Justice Dept document recording Billy Sol Estes offer to implicate LBJ in 8 murders?

How about Judyth Vary Baker who says she was Oswald's girlfriend and that Oswald was a clandestine U. S. operative that got discarded as a patsy?

Have these been debunked?

How about Antonio Veciana who testified to the House Committee on Assassinations (they concluded the CIA lied) that Oswald worked with or for CIA, meeting with David Atlee Phillips (chief cia western hemisphere, in charge of anti Castro plots) two months before the assassination, and Veciana was shot in the head shortly after testifying.
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Read the thread. We had one individual poster who self identified as the biggest hater of Johnson in the world (Robert Morrow) have fun. He posted and ran when his particular brand of nutty didn't go over.
 
BStrong said:
I've been in occupied buildings during/after gunfire and it usually sets off whatever smoke alarms are there, fwiw.
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Well, I think that Bubba (or whatever source he's taken this from) is saying the alarm went off before the gunfire. But one simple (and non-nefarious) explanation might be that DeMohrenschildt himself, wanting his body to be found with a minimum of fuss, opened the door. After all, we don't know what is meant by "seconds before"- I've seen CTists use that phrase to imply immediacy when the time-lag could also have been measured in minutes (2 minutes framed as 120 seconds, so "seconds before"). We don't know which door is supposed to have set off the alarm; we don't know how long it would have taken DeMohrenschildt to get from that door to wherever his body was found. The whole thing is so vaguely framed that it's not hard to make a mystery of it, if that's what's needed.

Anyway, within the context of DeMohrenschildt's mental deterioration and four previous suicide attempts, a lot more is needed than some mysterious beeping to overcome the default presumption that this was just the fifth (and finally successful) attempt.
 
Bubba said:
Warren Commission has 127 pages for 1 21 64 when it supposedly says Oswald was on FBI payroll. But that wouldnt prove anything anyway.
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No, when the commission discussed the rumors that were flying around among the Dallas press that he was, and what the evidence showed. Guess what the evidence showed.
 
turingtest said:
...like thousands of other U.S. citizens in similar circumstances, by the CIA's Domestic Contacts Division; this doesn't mean he worked for them.
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This was also discussed to death earlier. The CIA program was later examined by the White House for reasons having nothing to do with assassinations, and one of the facts the inspectors underscored was that these contactees were not considered in any way employees or contractors of the CIA or of any other government agency.
 
JayUtah said:
This was also discussed to death earlier. The CIA program was later examined by the White House for reasons having nothing to do with assassinations, and one of the facts the inspectors underscored was that these contactees were not considered in any way employees or contractors of the CIA or of any other government agency.
Click to expand...

In Crumpton's book "The Art of Intelligence" he describes establishing contacts with individuals very much on the outside of the intelligence business as volunteer sources post - 9/11 it was no different post WWII.
 
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turingtest said:
Well, I think that Bubba (or whatever source he's taken this from) is saying the alarm went off before the gunfire. But one simple (and non-nefarious) explanation might be that DeMohrenschildt himself, wanting his body to be found with a minimum of fuss, opened the door. After all, we don't know what is meant by "seconds before"- I've seen CTists use that phrase to imply immediacy when the time-lag could also have been measured in minutes (2 minutes framed as 120 seconds, so "seconds before"). We don't know which door is supposed to have set off the alarm; we don't know how long it would have taken DeMohrenschildt to get from that door to wherever his body was found. The whole thing is so vaguely framed that it's not hard to make a mystery of it, if that's what's needed.

Anyway, within the context of DeMohrenschildt's mental deterioration and four previous suicide attempts, a lot more is needed than some mysterious beeping to overcome the default presumption that this was just the fifth (and finally successful) attempt.
Click to expand...

I associate "door alarms" with commercial businesses, and was thinking of a reasonable explanation of "beeping" after a firearm was discharged.

Your correct about DM, he was clearly in a downward slide before his successful suicide.
 
BStrong said:
In Crumpton's book "The Art of Intelligence" he describes establishing contacts with individuals very much on the outside of the intelligence business as volunteer sources post - 9/11 it was no different post WWII.
Click to expand...

The key being "volunteer sources," which was the case here. These informants were no more employees or contractors of the CIA than someone who reports a crime is an employee or contractor of the prosecutor. In some cases they were compensated, but only as a matter of real expenditures.
 
JayUtah said:
The key being "volunteer sources," which was the case here. These informants were no more employees or contractors of the CIA than someone who reports a crime is an employee or contractor of the prosecutor. In some cases they were compensated, but only as a matter of real expenditures.
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Absolutely correct.
 
It proves nothing but I saw video of Judyth Vary Baker who says she was Oswald's girlfriend claiming he was a set up throwaway patsy.....she's just another nutbag?
 
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The video of John M. Dowd chief organized crime strike force 1972-1978 saying LBJ's Texas kingpin Murtchison made sure J Edgar Hoover always got his money back from bad oil well investments is noteworthy and maybe only an anecdotal footnote at best
 
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Words from Baker and Dowd in posts 598 and 599 are both verbatim from you tube videos.

Have you guys seen and heard them say those words?

On video John M. Dowd chief organized crime strike force 1972-1978 says J Edgar Hoover asked (illegally) about oil investments. No big deal, but supposedly tied to alleged LBJ crookedness
 
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