Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

There were several shoe prints, they were all documented, but none of them is attributable to a Nike shoe like Guede's shoe. In fact several of them do not even have a male size.

Let's also point out that only a small part of the jeans was visible in the photos, just to be precise.

This is breathtakingly deceitful. The shoe prints are Guede's. The identification is clear. To whom were you going to suggest they belonged?

Machiavelli belongs to "The Big Lie" school of investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

It remains unclear why he believes he must. Isn't the Nencini court winning?

 

[Samson]

This is breathtakingly deceitful. The shoe prints are Guede's. The identification is clear. To whom were you going to suggest they belonged?

I do think he must be talking of prints outside the bedroom.

 

[Desert Fox]

But basically nothing is coherent in the lone wolf scenario.

I have no idea what you are referring to. . . .

From the beginning however, crimes like what happened to Meredeth Kercher, what is more common, a single attacker or multiple attackers?

 

[acbytesla]

There were several shoe prints, they were all documented, but none of them is attributable to a Nike shoe like Guede's shoe. In fact several of them do not even have a male size.

TOTAL UNADULTERATED NONSENSE. I don't understand why it is necessary to lie in this forum

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I do think he must be talking of prints outside the bedroom.

No, if you scroll up, you'll see that he is referring to shoe prints inside Meredith's room.

He apparently has not bothered to examine the crime scene photos, and in this regard he is like everyone else in the online cult of guilt. Their focus is on cataloging and defending the claims made by the prosecution. They have no interest in the direct evidence or what it shows. They have only the vaguest idea of what they think happened at the crime scene, and they really could not care less. One crazy theory is as good as another to them, as long as it involves Amanda Knox.

 

[carbonjam72]

Why couldn't Rudy just have done it alone?

But basically nothing is coherent in the lone wolf scenario.

Mach, can you explain what you mean with this?

What evidence do you believe is inconsistent with Rudy Guede having killed Meredith Kercher all by himself?

It certainly would explain why there are only Rudy's foot prints in meredith's blood in the room where she was killed.

It would explain why only Rudy's DNA, finger prints and other biological traces were found in Meredith's room, and no one else ( at least in any meaningful quantity, or multiple places in the bedroom).

And it would be consistent with Rudy's style of breaking and entry, finding a window with a metal grating, and using it as a ladder to enter a second floor window - after having thrown a rock through it to test if anyone was there.

 

[carbonjam72]

Or is it possible that the pillow (or the body) was actually moved by the police prior to the photos being taken? Given the massive number of serious mistakes made by the "crack" investigators in this case, I'd suggest that the possibility of this is pretty high.....

In addition, the Guede shoe prints on the case are all right shoe prints. It's therefore almost certain that these prints were deposited immediately prior to Guede leaving the room and depositing the fading series of right shoe prints leading down the corridor in the direction of (but definitively NOT out of) the front door of the cottage. The single additional right shoe print in Kercher's room only goes to further illustrate just how small the room was - Guede would easily have been able to cover the distance from the pillow to the door using only one right footfall.

And given that the shoe print evidence in the hallway/kitchen strongly suggests that Guede turned round on this occasion and headed back towards Kercher's room (the supposition of many people - including me - is that he did so because he realised he couldn't open the front door of the cottage without a key, and therefore needed to return to Kercher's room to find her key), it's also entirely feasible that Guede himself moved the body and/or the pillow on this final entry into Kercher's room.

Also, that Rudy knew Meredith's keys were in her purse, because he saw them when he first stole her money from it, while riffling through it.

Also, LJ, I do disagree with you at least partially in regard to what the police thought, and when they thought it.

I first don't believe that all the police thought the same thing at every stage. At least I haven't seen any documentation that supports that view.

I also believe Napoleone, Zugarini and Mignini at a minimum, recognized Guede's style of B&E, and were aware that Rudy was possibly responsible for the murder - as has also been stated by Steve Moore, Judge Nencini, and Napoleone herself in court testimony.

That belief however, would not preclude others and lower level police from getting the message that the break-in was staged, and the terrible trio simply allowing them to continue in that belief.

Just my two cents, but I think there's a lot in back of it.

 

[carbonjam72]

Machiavelli has not responded to the larger issue here: why is it that Machiavelli thinks that courts like Massei's and Nencini's, the convicting courts, need help with these additional factoids?

It's not just whether or not Machiavelli is inventing them out of thin air.... why isn't Machiavelli simply making reference to the cases for guilt which are supposed to be so convincing in those motivations reports?

Why does Machiavelli think they need this kind of help?

I have asked repeatedly for Mach, or any other pro-guilt posters, to take any issue they like, and compare how Judge Hellman handled it, to that of any other judicial findings.

I think the difference is night and day.

I don't blame them for avoiding Hellman, if their fear is simply getting caught out and having to admit they are wrong.

What I don't understand is why anyone would be afraid to be wrong? I mean really, are they all hoping for a slice of Raf's inheritance? I don't get the psychology of the pro-guilt people, I truly do not get it.

 

[Kauffer]

I have asked repeatedly for Mach, or any other pro-guilt posters, to take any issue they like, and compare how Judge Hellman handled it, to that of any other judicial findings.

I think the difference is night and day.

I don't blame them for avoiding Hellman, if their fear is simply getting caught out and having to admit they are wrong.

What I don't understand is why anyone would be afraid to be wrong? I mean really, are they all hoping for a slice of Raf's inheritance? I don't get the psychology of the pro-guilt people, I truly do not get it.

Internet persecution is extraordinarily prolific. It requires merely a vulnerability to exploit. It happens on twitter and on Facebook in particular and is a digital age version of bullying. The anonymity of the internet provides the opportunity to eschew all cohesive societal norms and permit the unrestrained release of Mr Hyde characters within a moral vacuum. Some of the writings of some of the PG commentators would be regarded as a breach of the criminal law in the Uk. Probably the worst offender is the person who posts under the name of Graham Rhodes at TJMK. Some of these posts are profoundly disturbing, verging on threats of physical violence.

 

[Desert Fox]

Mach, can you explain what you mean with this?

What evidence do you believe is inconsistent with Rudy Guede having killed Meredith Kercher all by himself?

It certainly would explain why there are only Rudy's foot prints in meredith's blood in the room where she was killed.

It would explain why only Rudy's DNA, finger prints and other biological traces were found in Meredith's room, and no one else ( at least in any meaningful quantity, or multiple places in the bedroom).

And it would be consistent with Rudy's style of breaking and entry, finding a window with a metal grating, and using it as a ladder to enter a second floor window - after having thrown a rock through it to test if anyone was there.

It would be worth it for a researcher (in Italy) to gather more information about Guede such as interviewing people he knows. I suspect that he will have a number of prior events that hit at what happened. Why did Giacomo Benedetti suspect him for example?

 

[RWVBWL]

Or is it possible that the pillow (or the body) was actually moved by the police prior to the photos being taken? Given the massive number of serious mistakes made by the "crack" investigators in this case, I'd suggest that the possibility of this is pretty high.....
In addition, the Guede shoe prints on the case are all right shoe prints. It's therefore almost certain that these prints were deposited immediately prior to Guede leaving the room and depositing the fading series of right shoe prints leading down the corridor in the direction of (but definitively NOT out of) the front door of the cottage. The single additional right shoe print in Kercher's room only goes to further illustrate just how small the room was - Guede would easily have been able to cover the distance from the pillow to the door using only one right footfall.

And given that the shoe print evidence in the hallway/kitchen strongly suggests that Guede turned round on this occasion and headed back towards Kercher's room (the supposition of many people - including me - is that he did so because he realised he couldn't open the front door of the cottage without a key, and therefore needed to return to Kercher's room to find her key), it's also entirely feasible that Guede himself moved the body and/or the pillow on this final entry into Kercher's room.

Hi LJ and everyone else,
Have a look at these 2 photographs of the Crime Scene, found on the Web.

Look at where Miss Kercher's foot is in comparison to the floor tile grout lines and her black underwear, seen in both photo's, ILE moved her body in between taking these 2 photo's.

I think this kinda proves your point LJ.

Or do you folks Italian pro-guilt folks think that Amanda and Raff were still staging the crime scene?

Heck,
I even remember seeing a photo of Meredith's nightstand, right next to her bed,
which is then seen in other photographs altered also, for her letters home are moved,
but are still near that half full glass of water...

Gotta go,
see ya next time,
RW


ETA:
Here is the photograph which shows
that the letters home from Meredith were moved in between photo's:

Compare this to the photograph above which shows her nightstand + her letters home in the background.

 

[Numbers]

Conclusory arguments

I have asked repeatedly for Mach, or any other pro-guilt posters, to take any issue they like, and compare how Judge Hellman handled it, to that of any other judicial findings.

I think the difference is night and day.

I don't blame them for avoiding Hellman, if their fear is simply getting caught out and having to admit they are wrong.

What I don't understand is why anyone would be afraid to be wrong? I mean really, are they all hoping for a slice of Raf's inheritance? I don't get the psychology of the pro-guilt people, I truly do not get it.

I doubt that you'll find any pro-guilt posters who will take up your challenge.

In terms of the psychology of the guilters, IMO their motivations may include an attraction to authoritarianism, a delight in at least verbal sadism and/or expressions of hatred, a profound rejection of rational and scientific thinking, and the joy of banding together in a mob against a mutually-agreed upon victim.

One characteristic shared by the pro-guilt posters and the convicting judges in this case is their frequent resort to conclusory arguments. That is, they assume guilt and, without relying on a reasonable and objective evaluation of evidence, build up a chain of circular reasoning - often full of confusing and erroneous verbiage - that leads to a conclusion of guilt. It is not clear if they do this because of a systematic but unintentional failure or lacuna in their understanding of logic, or whether they are intentionally attempting to mislead any reader who has not closely examined their arguments in contrast to the actual evidence and reasonable, objective, and scientifically valid deductions.

 

[Numbers]

Evidence that the police moved Meredith's body

Hi LJ and everyone else,
Have a look at these 2 photographs of the Crime Scene, found on the Web.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9264[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9265[/qimg]

Look at where Miss Kercher's foot is in comparison to the floor tile grout lines and her black underwear, seen in both photo's, ILE moved her body in between taking these 2 photo's...

I think this kinda proves your point LJ.

Or do you folks Italian pro-guilt folks think that Amanda and Raff were still staging the crime scene?

Heck,
I remember even seeing a photo of Meredith's nightstand,
which is then seen in other photographs altered also, her letters home are moved, but near that half full glass of water....

Gotta go,
see ya next time,
RW

Here's a description of the alteration in Meredith's body compared to the grout lines and her black underwear as shown in the police photos posted by
RW:

In the first photo, Meredith's foot and her underwear are aligned parallel to the short grout lines.

In the second photo, Meredith's underwear remains aligned parallel to the short grout lines. However, her foot is now parallel to the long grout lines (that is, perpendicular to the short grout lines).

Therefore, for some unknown reason, the police moved Meredith's body between taking these two photos.

RW, thanks for finding and posting these photos.

ETA: Also, in photo 1, the front side of the lower leg lies close to a long grout line; in photo 2, that part of the lower leg is distant from a long grout line.

 

[Numbers]

Purse moved also - note position of handle strap

Hi LJ and everyone else,
Have a look at these 2 photographs of the Crime Scene, found on the Web.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9264[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9265[/qimg]

Look at where Miss Kercher's foot is in comparison to the floor tile grout lines and her black underwear, seen in both photo's, ILE moved her body in between taking these 2 photo's.

I think this kinda proves your point LJ.

Or do you folks Italian pro-guilt folks think that Amanda and Raff were still staging the crime scene?

Heck,
I even remember seeing a photo of Meredith's nightstand, right next to her bed,
which is then seen in other photographs altered also, for her letters home are moved,
but are still near that half full glass of water...

Gotta go,
see ya next time,
RW


ETA:
Here is the photograph which shows
that the letters home from Meredith were moved in between photo's:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9317[/qimg]
Compare this to the photograph above which shows her nightstand + her letters home in the background.

In the 1st photo, the handle strap of the purse lies entirely on the bed.
In the 2nd photo, it overhangs the bed. I do not believe this is an effect of perspective.

For the letters/envelopes, the angle of the large envelope nearest the front is changed with respect to the others in the 2nd photo, and they all seem moved closer to the corner.

ETA: The purse itself appears to have been moved closer to the edge of the bed in/for the 2nd photo.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Numbers,
Great observations.

Also,
note that in the 2nd photo,
Miss Kercher's foot is now pointed more towards a 45 degree angle skyward.


With all this in mind,
I'd really, really like to see original, unedited video from the downstairs crime scene, because as Diocletus has investigated + pointed out, there seems to be a connection with what happened upstairs with the downstairs mess.

Heck, Rudy Guede even mentions hearing noised downstairs in his March 2008 Interrogation.(*)

The video that I have seen from Nov. 2,
filmed downstairs in the guys flat, stops for some reason when the pot plants are found.

It does not show, as does the video from the next day, the bathroom where the blood drops were found, or the other bathroom where that chair was mysteriously sitting next to the bathtub which did not have a shower curtain, (might be what is found laying on the floor near the kitchen door), nor the guys bedrooms, where blood was found behind Giacomo's locked door + blood that was found on Stefano's messed up bed, which also has some straight bloody lines seen on his comforter, along with those blood drops. And correct me if I am wrong, but don't I recall reading that a pair of Giacomo's sandals were found wet?
Weird...

Now I really gotta go, see ya!
RW


(*) - Gosh, I'd still really love to read that 1st Dec. of 2007 Interrogation of Rudy Guede...

 

[Numbers]

In the 1st photo, the handle strap of the purse lies entirely on the bed.
In the 2nd photo, it overhangs the bed. I do not believe this is an effect of perspective.

For the letters/envelopes, the angle of the large envelope nearest the front is changed with respect to the others in the 2nd photo, and they all seem moved closer to the corner.

ETA: The purse itself appears to have been moved closer to the edge of the bed in/for the 2nd photo.

The police were tampering with the evidence in unknown ways even as they were photographing the crime scene.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi CarbonJam72,
I feel that the 13 unattributed fingerprints,
which passed the tests as Frank Sfarzo noted in that posting I shared recently,
might have something to do with the case we discuss.
BUT we do not know whose they are.

We know that ILE, under PM Mignini,
were hell bent to have Raff and Amanda participate in Meredith's murder at all costs, it seems.

How do you just substitute 1 guy, a family man, a business owner,
with another guy, who does not even have a job or a girlfriend?
Just because he is black.
Come on.

And then not change the motive?

Sex Game Gone Wrong?

The prints might mean something, ILE never found out who they belonged to.
I'd like to see them tested again, though I bet that'll never happen.

Heck,
2 unattributed fingerprints are on Meredith's door.
Didn't I read a short while ago that her door wasn't tested completely?
When I have a free moment, I'll dig up and re-read that post, wasn't it from Numbers?

Are they from the postal police?
Or the guy who broke down her door?
Or the 2 paramedics who arrived soon after?
Or someone else who mighta been of a more violent nature than "Poor Rudy".

And it also seems some unattributed prints are on a womans panty drawer.
In a Sex Game Gone Wrong, might these mean something?
Possibly.

I don't know,
but I keep it in mind as I read about this case we discuss...
See ya, RW

 

[Desert Fox]

The police were tampering with the evidence in unknown ways even as they were photographing the crime scene.

That is part of what got O.J. off

 

[Numbers]

Rotation of Meredith's leg by police

Hi Numbers,
Great observations.

Also,
note that in the 2nd photo,
Miss Kercher's foot is now pointed more towards a 45 degree angle skyward.
With all this in mind,
I'd really, really like to see original, unedited video from the downstairs crime scene, because as Diocletus has investigated + pointed out, there seems to be a connection with what happened upstairs with the downstairs mess.

Heck, Rudy Guede even mentions hearing noised downstairs in his March 2008 Interrogation.(*)

The video that I have seen from Nov. 2,
filmed downstairs in the guys flat, stops for some reason when the pot plants are found.

It does not show, as does the video from the next day, the bathroom where the blood drops were found, or the other bathroom where that chair was mysteriously sitting next to the bathtub which did not have a shower curtain, (might be what is found laying on the floor near the kitchen door), nor the guys bedrooms, where blood was found behind Giacomo's locked door + blood that was found on Stefano's messed up bed, which also has some straight bloody lines seen on his comforter, along with those blood drops. And correct me if I am wrong, but don't I recall reading that a pair of Giacomo's sandals were found wet?
Weird...

Now I really gotta go, see ya!
RW


(*) - Gosh, I'd still really love to read that 1st Dec. of 2007 Interrogation of Rudy Guede...

I agree with you that Meredith's leg/foot has been rotated on the heel, with the toes angled upward more, although I would estimate it's far less than 45 degrees - my guess/estimate is maybe 20 or 30 degrees. Also, the foot has been moved back toward her underwear and this is why there is more tile showing between the top of the foot and the long grout line.

 

[Numbers]

Hi CarbonJam72,
I feel that the 13 unattributed fingerprints,
which passed the tests as Frank Sfarzo noted in that posting I shared recently,
might have something to do with the case we discuss.
BUT we do not know whose they are.

We know that ILE, under PM Mignini,
were hell bent to have Raff and Amanda participate in Meredith's murder at all costs, it seems.

How do you just substitute 1 guy, a family man, a business owner,
with another guy, who does not even have a job or a girlfriend?
Just because he is black.
Come on.

And then not change the motive?

Sex Game Gone Wrong?

The prints might mean something, ILE never found out who they belonged to.
I'd like to see them tested again, though I bet that'll never happen.

Heck,
2 unattributed fingerprints are on Meredith's door.
Didn't I read a short while ago that her door wasn't tested completely?
When I have a free moment, I'll dig up and re-read that post, wasn't it from Numbers?

Are they from the postal police?
Or the guy who broke down her door?
Or the 2 paramedics who arrived soon after?
Or someone else who mighta been of a more violent nature than "Poor Rudy".

And it also seems some unattributed prints are on a womans panty drawer.
In a Sex Game Gone Wrong, might these mean something?
Possibly.

I don't know,
but I keep it in mind as I read about this case we discuss...
See ya, RW

No, I don't recall posting that. But I think I recall one or more posts where the police were quoted as stating that they had seen no need to get prints/DNA evidence from the hall side of the door and handle - so they didn't.

ETA: I would appreciate other opinions on what RW's photos show. Can anyone make a credible case that these differences are merely results of changes in perspective?