Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kauffer]

Nobody demands you to have confidence in something. But nobody compels you to be under the Italian jurisdiction either. If if you decide to become a resident of Italy, this means you have accepted the legitimacy of the judiciary system.
Italy is a sovereign human community, as you decide to be part of a community you also need to accept it.

So you have no evidence of Hellmann taking bribes, yet you "think" he did. Is that it?

 

[Kauffer]

The forensic examination actually did not reveal that Lumumba was not the person who sexually assaulted Meredith. It was a Swiss professor who presented a proof for his alibi.

I'm not asking you about his alibi. I'm asking you what the forensic examination of Ms Kercher's body revealed? You say it did not reveal that Lumumba was not the person who assaulted her?? Which results from this analysis then do you hold to be inculpatory as far as Mr Lumumba is concerned? What date were they known and when was Mr Lumumba released?

 

[Kauffer]

Lumumba ruled out early on as a suspect

Critically, the Y-chromosome STR analysis of the vaginal swab returned a male profile (that is now known to correspond to Rudy Guede). This result was obtained on or about November 6, 2007, and while it may not have been known at the time that the profile belonged to Rudy Guede, it was known that the profile did not match the reference profiles for either Raffaele Sollecito or Patrick Lumumba. Thus, Sollecito and Lumumba were excluded as the attackers by about November 6, 2007. This exculpatory information, however, was not disclosed to the court or the defense prior to or during the pre-trial detention hearing on November 8, 2007.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Patrick Lumumba was not released from custody until 20th November

 

[Machiavelli]

We were trying to work out how Ms Knox slaughtered Ms Kercher in a room with the dimensions of 11 feet x 9.5 feet, with four people in it and with free space around the furniture of about 8 feet x 6 feet with more than two litres of spilled and aspirated blood but left no evidence behind and took no evidence with her.

We were wondering if you had any ideas, because we sure don't!

Did you happen to observe how four big policemen in Staten Island managed to suffocate a huge 400-pound man to death (5 people overall) on a piece of pedestrian sidewalk about 4 feet x 6 feet? Well, might be something a bit like that.
However, the murderers were not there while Meredith died of blood loss and suffocation from her own blood. The murderes ran out immediately after the stabbing, as nara Capezzali recalls: almost immediately after the scream. You need some time to spill the two liters of blood around the room from that wound, and they didn't wait there all that time.

 

[Machiavelli]

So you have no evidence of Hellmann taking bribes, yet you "think" he did. Is that it?

Not exactly.

 

[Kauffer]

So you have no evidence of Hellmann taking bribes, yet you "think" he did. Is that it?

Not exactly.

Well, what then?

 

[Wattson]

Nobody demands you to have confidence in something. But nobody compels you to be under the Italian jurisdiction either. If if you decide to become a resident of Italy, this means you have accepted the legitimacy of the judiciary system.
Italy is a sovereign human community, as you decide to be part of a community you also need to accept it.

The same could be said about Italy joining the European Union.

 

[Wattson]

Did you happen to observe how four big policemen in Staten Island managed to suffocate a huge 400-pound man to death (5 people overall) on a piece of pedestrian sidewalk about 4 feet x 6 feet? Well, might be something a bit like that.
However, the murderers were not there while Meredith died of blood loss and suffocation from her own blood. The murderes ran out immediately after the stabbing, as nara Capezzali recalls: almost immediately after the scream. You need some time to spill the two liters of blood around the room from that wound, and they didn't wait there all that time.

Then how did Rudy manage to get his footprints in the blood?

 

[Desert Fox]

Calunnia is not "slander", calunnia is an aggravated type of obstruction of justice. Indeed you can get upt to 20 years for calunnia.

As for the first statement: it is basically wrong, for several legal and factual reasons. Among those reasons, the fact that Meredith Kercher did not die immediately when she was stabbed. The simple being there while failing to attempt to bring an immediate rescue (calling police and paramedics), even if it were the only action, would be accounted for as a full responsability in a muder.

Still,m you can 20 years for that and 2 years for pedophilia . . . .

You comment about being able to get help is also garbage. I have unfortunately seen pictures of the neck wounds, she is going to bleed out in moments. No emergency services is going to get there in time. Even assuming it was not as bad as it was in reality, the suggestion was she was in the kitchen, if it was covering in fear as Vibio seems to be suggesting, she would not have had a chance to help either.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm not asking you about his alibi. I'm asking you what the forensic examination of Ms Kercher's body revealed? You say it did not reveal that Lumumba was not the person who assaulted her?? Which results from this analysis then do you hold to be inculpatory as far as Mr Lumumba is concerned? What date were they known and when was Mr Lumumba released?

There were simply no inculpatory findings against Lumumba at all.

There isn't a "finding of exculpatory evidence". On Nov. 15 Stefanoni summoned prosecution and parties and bried them about some of the first results. But on Nov. 14 they had performed a forensic analysis at Lumumba's place and still had to elaborate results from it. The handprints were matched to Rudy Guede between Nov. 13 and nov. 19. On Nov. 18. (or 19.) the prosecution wrote a brief note to the investigation judge saying the evidence against Lumumba was not serious. On Nov. 19 the prosecution issued an order of arrest against Guede. On Nov. 20. the forensics accessed Guede's home and obtained his DNA for comparisons.

I am not 100% sure about all these dates, however the error is small, and above all I point out that I consider those dates absolutely not significant, and they are not directly related to the release of Patrick Lumumba.

The release of Patrick Lumumba was ordered by the Investigating Judge (the Police and the Prosecution do not have a power to release suspects).

 

[Kauffer]

Did you happen to observe how four big policemen in Staten Island managed to suffocate a huge 400-pound man to death (5 people overall) on a piece of pedestrian sidewalk about 4 feet x 6 feet? Well, might be something a bit like that.
However, the murderers were not there while Meredith died of blood loss and suffocation from her own blood. The murderes ran out immediately after the stabbing, as nara Capezzali recalls: almost immediately after the scream. You need some time to spill the two liters of blood around the room from that wound, and they didn't wait there all that time.

They ran out "immediately after the stabbing" did they?

No blood spatter on them? No DNA shedding? No prints on the floor or anywhere else?

I'm struggling with your analysis. And the luminol prints outside the room were left how? Ms Knox exited the bedroom in bare feet having picked up blood from where exactly? Leaving what evidence of this collection? No evidence of this collection since there is no evidence in the room. But the luminol prints are in dilute blood right? So what? Ms Knox washes her bare feet before running out the flat in bare feet?? Is she carrying her shoes?

And what about Mr Sollecito? Does he stop briefly to touch the bra clasp before he runs out? But wait. That can't be right because first he has to go to the bathroom and leave a bare bloody footprint right?

I'm sure you can explain this better than I can to fit the evidence and the absence of evidence in the bedroom.

 

[Machiavelli]

They ran out "immediately after the stabbing" did they?

No blood spatter on them? No DNA shedding? No prints on the floor or anywhere else?

I'm struggling with your analysis. (...)

Well if you have problems with this one, then you should have really big problems explaining just some phisical traces trhough a scenario that has Guede as a lone assailant. You know, nobody was able to sort out the contradictions in that scenario when I pointed them out.
All you pro-Knoxes became confused when if came to the point of establishing things such as at what moment did Rudy step on the pillowcase. When he committed a sexual violence and so on. My pointing out of those contradictions was followed by silence.

 

[Kauffer]

There were simply no inculpatory findings against Lumumba at all.

There isn't a "finding of exculpatory evidence". On Nov. 15 Stefanoni summoned prosecution and parties and bried them about some of the first results. But on Nov. 14 they had performed a forensic analysis at Lumumba's place and still had to elaborate results from it. The handprints were matched to Rudy Guede between Nov. 13 and nov. 19. On Nov. 18. (or 19.) the prosecution wrote a brief note to the investigation judge saying the evidence against Lumumba was not serious. On Nov. 19 the prosecution issued an order of arrest against Guede. On Nov. 20. the forensics accessed Guede's home and obtained his DNA for comparisons.

I am not 100% sure about all these dates, however the error is small, and above all I point out that I consider those dates absolutely not significant, and they are not directly related to the release of Patrick Lumumba.

The release of Patrick Lumumba was ordered by the Investigating Judge (the Police and the Prosecution do not have a power to release suspects).

No no no. Stefanoni knew the results from Ms Kercher's body in time for the Matteini hearing on the 8th. There was zero evidence against Mr Lumumba at that point. The 'claim' made by Ms Knox had been absolutely refuted. As you say, there was nothing inculpatory against Mr Lumumba but he was kept incarcerated for two weeks without evidence against him. This was not Ms Knox's doing. But as a matter of interest, when was the alibi witness found?

 

[js202]

Well if you have problems with this one, then you should have really big problems explaining just some phisical traces trhough a scenario that has Guede as a lone assailant. You know, nobody was able to sort out the contradictions in that scenario when I pointed them out.
All you pro-Knoxes became confused when if came to the point of establishing things such as at what moment did Rudy step on the pillowcase. When he committed a sexual violence and so on. My pointing out of those contradictions was followed by silence.

What are you going on about, now? This seems new.

Given that Guede left his footprint in what is almost certainly his own semen, he stepped on the pillowcase just after he had ejaculated over - or worse, given that his DNA was left in her vagina, endeavored to penetrate - Ms. Kercher's dead or dying body. Given the blood droplets present on both her bra and exposed breasts, Guede at least continued his violation of her after he had created the mortal wound, which caused the aspiration of blood.

Next?

 

[Kauffer]

Well if you have problems with this one, then you should have really big problems explaining just some phisical traces trhough a scenario that has Guede as a lone assailant. You know, nobody was able to sort out the contradictions in that scenario when I pointed them out.
All you pro-Knoxes became confused when if came to the point of establishing things such as at what moment did Rudy step on the pillowcase. When he committed a sexual violence and so on. My pointing out of those contradictions was followed by silence.

Outrageous! You have just posited a theory about the alleged involvement of Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito in this crime which expressly does not fit the evidence. You've been challenged to explain yourself and now you want to distract us with talk of Guede and the "impossibility" of the lone assailant. We are not interested in that. If you want to involve someone else in this crime, up to you, but not Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito. Have some honesty. The theory you have just put forward does not work. It does not fit the evidence. What is your explanation?

 

[Machiavelli]

They ran out "immediately after the stabbing" did they?

No blood spatter on them? No DNA shedding? No prints on the floor or anywhere else?

I recall of a murder where a girl killed two of her siblings with about 100 stabbings in small rooms (a small bedroom, and a bathroom among those), and she had no blood spatters on her cloths nor she left any prints. I don't see a big problem in what you say and I fail to see any evidence you can address.
The lone wolf scenario is simply incredibly contradictory compared to your alleged "problems".

I'm struggling with your analysis. And the luminol prints outside the room were left how? Ms Knox exited the bedroom in bare feet having picked up blood from where exactly?

Exactly I dont know, she might have stepped on a towel soaked with blood while she was using it as a "path" to reach the area left of the body, but I suspect she never stepped on blood: maybe she only had her hands ann/or arms dirty with blood, or maybe she had a bloody t-shirt too, and then she just took off her clothes in the shower and washed herself. The bloody water may be the result of her washing, not of her stepping.
But in fact, my suspicion is that Sollecito had more blood on his hands than Knox. I think he was the on with bloody hands, and they both took a shower together.

Leaving what evidence of this collection? No evidence of this collection since there is no evidence in the room.

There are semi-circular streaks of blood on the floor, that look like produced with a towel. But there is actually no specific event of "collection" that is necessary to the scenario. As I said, they might just have taken a cold shower, and the bloody water on the shower floor may be the result of this.

But the luminol prints are in dilute blood right? So what? Ms Knox washes her bare feet before running out the flat in bare feet?? Is she carrying her shoes?

No no, we should be clear: the luminol prints and the diluted blood prints on the bathmat are not the result of the murder and they are not evidence of it; they are evidence of the subsequent cleaning activity the consequence and they are the consequence of it. It's because they had a shower or washed themselves, after they came back in the house, that they picked up water containing blood.

And what about Mr Sollecito? Does he stop briefly to touch the bra clasp before he runs out? But wait.

Obviously not. He tries to forcedly open the bra clasp with his fingers, this is why the metal is crooked.

That can't be right because first he has to go to the bathroom and leave a bare bloody footprint right?

As I said, this only happens some time after the muder.

 

[Machiavelli]

What are you going on about, now? This seems new.

Given that Guede left his footprint in what is almost certainly his own semen, he stepped on the pillowcase just after he had ejaculated over - or worse, given that his DNA was left in her vagina, endeavored to penetrate - Ms. Kercher's dead or dying body. Given the blood droplets present on both her bra and exposed breasts, Guede at least continued his violation of her after he had created the mortal wound, which caused the aspiration of blood.
(...)

In this small snippet, we can already spot at least two contradictions.

1) conflict with autopsy findings: bruises in her vagina indicate that she suffered a sexual abuse while she still had a normal blood pressure even in peripheral areas. Dead or dying people don't suffer bruises.

2) internal inconsistence: you say Guede stepped on the pillow case after he had ejaculated over it, which allegedly happend after she had been stabbed, and after the pillow allegebly had already been placed beneath her body in order to perform said violation. But if so, how could he step over the pillow while this was already in that position under the body?
Stepping on the pillow and leave the shoeprints there after the pillow is already in that position, would be impossible.
The stepping on the pillow must have happened before the pillow was placed under the body.

 

[js202]

But in fact, my suspicion is that Sollecito had more blood on his hands than Knox. I think he was the on with bloody hands, and they both took a shower together.

Preposterous speculation. Whom here, aside from your two sycophants, do you think cares about your "suspicion"? For which you, predictably, have no evidence.

There are semi-circular streaks of blood on the floor, that look like produced with a towel.

These streaks were caused by: 1) Ms. Kercher's own body, as Guede moved it so he could better violate it, and/or 2) the efforts with towels Guede admitted to have made, in reality so he could either a) rape the dying girl less messily, and/or b) in a stupidly hopeless, post-frenzy effort, attempt to staunch her blood and save himself from a murder rap.

No no, we should be clear: the luminol prints and the diluted blood prints on the bathmat are not the result of the murder and they are not evidence of it; they are evidence of the subsequent cleaning activity the consequence and they are the consequence of it. It's because they had a shower or washed themselves, after they came back in the house, that they picked up water containing blood.

Yes, yes, for once you should be clear. There is no convincing evidence of Knox or Sollecito in the murder room. You must first place them there for it to make any sense whatsoever that they left traces of blood from their person in any clean-up effort, whatsoever.

Obviously not. He tries to forcedly open the bra clasp with his fingers, this is why the metal is crooked.

As evidenced by the torn material on the bra strap, Guede tore off the bra strap. This obviously caused the "crooked" metal.

As I said, this only happens some time after the muder.

Anything you've said in these pages is of precious little substance or value.

 

[Machiavelli]

No no no. Stefanoni knew the results from Ms Kercher's body in time for the Matteini hearing on the 8th. There was zero evidence against Mr Lumumba at that point. The 'claim' made by Ms Knox had been absolutely refuted. (...)

This makes no sense, but in your own world. There was zero phisical evidence against Lumumba both before and after Nov. 8., but there was also nothing exculpatory that had been found by Nov. 8. That "at that point" something changed or that Knox's testimony had been "absolutely" refuted is just your judgement, and it's incorrect imho, it's not something factual.

 

[Wattson]

In this small snippet, we can already spot at least two contradictions.

1) conflict with autopsy findings: bruises in her vagina indicate that she suffered a sexual abuse while she still had a normal blood pressure even in peripheral areas. Dead or dying people don't suffer bruises.

2) internal inconsistence: you say Guede stepped on the pillow case after he had ejaculated over it, which allegedly happend after she had been stabbed, and after the pillow allegebly had already been placed beneath her body in order to perform said violation. But if so, how could he step over the pillow while this was already in that position under the body? Stepping on the pillow and leave the shoeprints there after the pillow is already in that position, would be impossible. The stepping on the pillow must have happened before the pillow was placed under the body.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is Italian logic at its finest. Apparently Meredith's butt was so large as to cover the entire pillow. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.