• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Animal Cruelty - Why should we care?

Actually you did. You seriously need to start reading posts that you quote and respond to before you embarrass yourself:

Then you misunderstand. I am prepared to accept you did not do so wilfully, but the distinction I was talking about was between mammals and other animals such as chickens and geese. I am not prepared to recognize a distinction between mammals and animals such as chickens and geese on your say-so. I also do not think it makes sense to talk about torturing a virus. I would have thought the context was obvious, but like I said, I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Not only did I not make it up but I just quoted the post. It's not going anywhere.

No, again, the point I was making was that saying:

thinking that there is no difference between torturing a virus and torturing a mammal is a definite sign of a psychopath.

is a made-up trait for a psychopath. Made up by you.

And anyway, you have just confirmed that you are calling me a psychopath.
 
Is it actually true at all? Whose expert opinion are you quoting here? Or is it merely an opinion you made up?


Just for the record, you are trying to argue that someone who tortures mammals solely for the sake of it is not psychopathic.

I think this idea about animal torturers turning out to being psychopaths is a bit of a cliche and maybe a logical error.


You then tried to move the goalposts to insects and medical procedures.

No one is going to believe that when you said this:

I think this idea about animal torturers turning out to being psychopaths is a bit of a cliche and maybe a logical error.


That you were merely talking about insects and medical procedures.
 
Also, you have beautifully illustrated why I suggested that we contain the discussion to mammals 20 posts ago.

There is always someone who wants to find out where the line is. "But, but, you kill flies!!! Durrrrrr."

It is a distraction and we do not need it.

I think you will find that I am trying to ascertain whether or not what you said earlier is true, namely this:

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.

This is a bare assertion until you have actually provided some evidence. Where is that evidence?
 
I am not prepared to recognize a distinction between mammals and animals such as chickens and geese on your say-so.


Solely for one reason. You think you can try and be the "but where do we draw the line" person that thinks they are clever enough to sink the entire discussion with that nonsense.

It doesn't work and it is tired.

So again, I ask you:

Can we just agree to discuss mammals so we don't have to have this entire "durrr where does consciousness begin" discussion instead of the discussion that we are actually having. Which is being cruel to conscious beings. It is easy to agree upon mammals being conscious, but nooooooo you would rather "find the line".

Others may fall for it, but I am not going to.
 
This is a bare assertion until you have actually provided some evidence. Where is that evidence?


You're asking for evidence that someone who tortures animals solely for the sake of the torturing is displaying a psychopathic behavior??

You already tried attempting to make people believe that you were including killing insects and medical procedures when you said it.
 
Just for the record, you are trying to argue that someone who tortures mammals solely for the sake of it is not psychopathic.

That's not my argument. I want you to substantiate the argument that someone who tortures animals is a psychopath. Where is your evidence?

Oh, and I notice that you have added "for the sake of it". That gives you a lot of leeway, but let's say that some children find torturing mammals to be entertaining. Where is your evidence that such torture is sufficient to make them psychopaths?

You then tried to move the goalposts to insects and medical procedures.

No, insects are animals. And medical procedures can still involve torture. It is only in this post that you have added new data: "for the sake of it" which probably does not make sense.

No one is going to believe that when you said this:

That you were merely talking about insects and medical procedures.

You have not substantiated your claim yet. Not even tried as far as I can see.
 
Solely for one reason. You think you can try and be the "but where do we draw the line" person that thinks they are clever enough to sink the entire discussion with that nonsense.

It doesn't work and it is tired.

So again, I ask you:

Can we just agree to discuss mammals so we don't have to have this entire "durrr where does consciousness begin" discussion instead of the discussion that we are actually having. Which is being cruel to conscious beings. It is easy to agree upon mammals being conscious, but nooooooo you would rather "find the line".

Others may fall for it, but I am not going to.

Emphatically, No! For reasons I have already explained.
 
I think this idea about animal torturers turning out to being psychopaths is a bit of a cliche and maybe a logical error.


If you want evidence, then define the highlighted phrase in your claim.

A logical reading of that sentence assumes you meant "animal torturers". Period. You already tried to claim that you just meant insects and medical procedures.

Now, not only are you trying to derail the discussion by having us argue about where in the vast tree of life does "consciousness" begin, but you are trying to derail the discussion about your own damn claim of "animal torturers" not being psychopaths.

This "testing the line" nonsense must be a favorite tactic of yours!

Can we just agree to limit the discussion to mammals and move on?
 
You're asking for evidence that someone who tortures animals solely for the sake of the torturing is displaying a psychopathic behavior??

Stop weaseling! Stop moving the goalposts.

It is this claim you need to substantiate!

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.

Animal torturers - not mammal torturers (although I would be happy to accept mammals for now)

Not "for the sake of it" which is a weasel-worded phrase (who is to say it is "for the sake of it"?)

And not "displaying psychopathic behaviour" but "are psychopaths"!

Now, let's see it, please...
 
Emphatically, No! For reasons I have already explained.


You're not fooling anyone. You want to attack the definition so that the entire discussion is derailed. You know it will derail the discussion because determining where on the vast tree of life consciousness beings is ******* impossible.

Any person honestly interested in the discussion would agree to draw the line at mammals so that the discussion can commence.
 
If you want evidence, then define the highlighted phrase in your claim.

A logical reading of that sentence assumes you meant "animal torturers". Period. You already tried to claim that you just meant insects and medical procedures.

BS! I did not try to claim any such thing.

Now, not only are you trying to derail the discussion by having us argue about where in the vast tree of life does "consciousness" begin, but you are trying to derail the discussion about your own damn claim of "animal torturers" not being psychopaths.

This "testing the line" nonsense must be a favorite tactic of yours!

Can we just agree to limit the discussion to mammals and move on?


Let's try something simpler shall we. Why don't you substantiate this claim, and okay I will let you move the goalposts to only include mammals:

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.
 
(although I would be happy to accept mammals for now)


lmao, you're the one that just stopped weaseling.

There you have it folks.

angrysoba requests proof that someone who tortures a mammal solely for the sake of the torture is displaying psychopathic tendencies.
 
You're not fooling anyone. You want to attack the definition so that the entire discussion is derailed. You know it will derail the discussion because determining where on the vast tree of life consciousness beings is ******* impossible.

Any person honestly interested in the discussion would agree to draw the line at mammals so that the discussion can commence.

Then do it. If it will get you to answer my question. Where is your evidence for this?

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.
 
It's an interesting topic. I've witnessed a lot of casual abuse of various animals and I've had trouble communicating why it should stop to those doing it.

For example, a recent hire tried to kill a tortoise with a spade. The excuse was it was evil and his sangoma (traditional healer) wanted the parts.
(He was stopped just in time and the tortoise was carried out of sight.)

The communication gulf between myself and this man was so huge that I stammered and then went with inventing my own "sangoma" who told me never to kill or harm any animals.

He just looked at me oddly and then we parted.


Something about the connection of mind and suffering speaks to me.

We can doll it up with speak of evolution and common origins and neurons and such, but in the end I recognize a fellow life that avoids death — and that pain is part of that.

I would not want cruelty inwards, so I should not be cruel outwards.

There's also the idle, unthought, wanton aspect. I can't stand destruction of plants. Plants don't, afaik, experience pain like animals do; so what is it that bothers me?

It's the slide down into ruin. The blasted landscapes where nothing grows. The instinct that life circles, and my own depends on it. The instinct that the picture is more complex than I can know — that unthought will lead to regret.


In the end, we must care so that we don't make mistakes that lead to us not being around to care at all.
 
angrysoba requests proof that someone who tortures a mammal solely for the sake of the torture is displaying psychopathic tendencies.

Let's see your claim again. For the bloody tenth time, I think.

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.

"are psychopaths", not "displaying psychopathic tendencies".

Now stop playing to the gallery and present your evidence.
 
Let's try something simpler shall we. Why don't you substantiate this claim, and okay I will let you move the goalposts to only include mammals:



angrysoba you are not the first person to move goalposts and then try and claim that the other person moved the goalposts.

Here is your claim:

No one is going to believe that when you said this:

I think this idea about animal torturers turning out to being psychopaths is a bit of a cliche and maybe a logical error.


That you were merely talking about insects and medical procedures.


But it doesn't matter anymore, you already said that you didn't even believe it applies to mammals here:

(although I would be happy to accept mammals for now)


Which is just too damn funny to even respond to.
 
First, my own background. I'm a cat lover. I work at an animal rescue. I've been taking care of cats for 20 years now and I can't imagine my life without them. I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them, and if anyone were to ever hurt them, I would want that individual to be harshly punished.

I'm not ethically opposed to raising farm animals for the purpose of eating meat, so long as they are treated humanely while they are alive.

Most animals are not treated humanely while they are alive. See here for some specifics: http://www.farmsanctuary.org/learn/factory-farming/

After all, the cats I care for are obligate carnivores, so I'd be a hypocrite if I were against raising other animals for meat.

Well no you wouldn't because humans are not obligate carnivores. You could be against raising animals for the purpose of human consumption and not be a hypocrite.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find stores that still sell free range meat. I'm currently looking into CSA because I've heard it's better for the environment, so I'll have to see how that pans out.

"Free range" animal products are often far from humane.

Yet the reason I'm asking this question is because, for the life of me, I find myself unable to articulate an objective moral or philosophical argument as to why I as an individual, or why we as a society, should care about animal cruelty as an issue.

You can never really conclusively proof that any moral claim is correct, whether it relates to animals or humans. You can, however, appeal to things that (many) others are likely to agree on. Such as "it's wrong to cause unnecessary suffering to another conscious being for the sake of personal gain and/or laziness".

I used to argue that there are studies that have been done showing a link between cruelty towards animals and cruelty towards humans. This is how several notorious serial killers, like Jeffrey Dahmer, got their start. However, only a correlation has been proven, and correlation is not the same as causation. There are animal abusers who do not grow up to be serial killers, and there are serial killers who never abused animals growing up. Perhaps the same psychological cause is behind both behaviors in households where abuse takes place, but I haven't been able to find sufficient evidence on this.

This argument seems to presume that things are only bad if they harm humans.

I could argue that animals are living, breathing, thinking beings, who provide us with companionship and warmth. They have the same feelings we do. They feel pain like we do. They give us so much and ask for so little in return. However, this is an emotional appeal, not an objective argument, and not everyone is going to feel the same way.

And arguing that bad things done to humans are wrong is often going to be an emotional appeal too...

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Why should anyone care about animal cruelty?

The same reason we should care about human cruelty. Compassion, justice, morality...

What does it matter if a livestock animal is trapped in a tiny cell, wading in its own filth its entire life? It's just going to die anyway.

The same argument could be applied to humans. It matters because it matters to the animal and it may be going to die eventually, as all of us are, but that doesn't mean the suffering he/she undergoes while alive doesn't matter.

And what does it matter if a cat or dog is beaten, neglected, or starved? It's just a stupid pet. It's not the same as treating a human the same way,

Not exactly the same, but it's wrong for pretty much the same reasons.
 
Last edited:
Until you present evidence OTT, you can consider our discussion over. I will respond if you are willing to present evidence for your claim, as follows:

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.

In the meantime, here’s an interesting discussion between Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins:

 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom