Animal Cruelty - Why should we care?

[angrysoba]

Yet the reason I'm asking this question is because, for the life of me, I find myself unable to articulate an objective moral or philosophical argument as to why I as an individual, or why we as a society, should care about animal cruelty as an issue.

Maybe you might like to start with Peter Singer, here:

http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1979----.htm

I used to argue that there are studies that have been done showing a link between cruelty towards animals and cruelty towards humans. This is how several notorious serial killers, like Jeffrey Dahmer, got their start. However, only a correlation has been proven, and correlation is not the same as causation. There are animal abusers who do not grow up to be serial killers, and there are serial killers who never abused animals growing up. Perhaps the same psychological cause is behind both behaviors in households where abuse takes place, but I haven't been able to find sufficient evidence on this.

I agree with you here that this is a bad argument.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

When we are talking farming, the more fear and pain an animal suffers, the worse it's meat is, so treating them well means that they will produce better meat.

Animals that we farm to produce by products (eggs, wool, milk) also tend to do so better when not stressed and hurting.

It should be trivially obvious that this isn't the situation, or at least doesn't encompass everything. It is also many times cheaper or easier to manage animals that are treated less than "well".

 

[This is The End]

But if what you say is true, are children who pull the wings and legs off insects psychopaths?

First of all, this isn't black and white. There is a broad range of "being a psychopath".

And second of all, you changed the subject to insects. We're not talking about smashing a fly.

Let us assume you did not, and you asked about "pulling the legs off of a mouse". Then I would lean towards Yes. If they are over the age of, say 5 or so, and they are doing something like pulling the legs off of a mouse, we have a problem.

 

[Loss Leader]

Is that right? Actually, I have no idea. We would probably need to clarify what psychopathy is. I doubt that it has one agreed upon definition, but rather a cluster of traits.

Actually, there's a very well-known and long-refined scale for psychopathy (first developed by Hillary), a version of which can be found here. There are no necessary traits of a psychopath, but a cluster of a subset of a larger number of traits can indicate the disorder. On the scale, most people score below 10. A score of 30 or more indicates psychopathy.

There is also a modified scale for children.

 

[angrysoba]

This discussion has to begin with an agreement:

Mammals are conscious. They have an actively running consciousness just like another mammal: human beings.

The sophistication of that consciousness is quite provably not as advanced as the human being, just as there are obviously going to be variations between the sophistication of the consciousness between other types of mammals.

Parties that do not agree with that, especially parties that claim the only mammal with an actively running consciousness are human beings, will not even being to have a discussion about animal cruelty.

But why mammals? Do we not also think that geese and chickens can suffer as well?

 

[angrysoba]

First of all, this isn't black and white. There is a broad range of "being a psychopath".

It was black-and-white enough for you when you said:

Umm... animal torturers are psychopaths. No "turning out to be" needed. You're the one making a logical error.

So, umm... let's see your next objection...

And second of all, you changed the subject to insects. We're not talking about smashing a fly.

Let us assume you did not, and you asked about "pulling the legs off of a mouse". Then I would lean towards Yes. If they are over the age of, say 5 or so, and they are doing something like pulling the legs off of a mouse, we have a problem.

I didn't change the subject. Insects are animals too. And by carving up my post to only include that example you distort what I am saying, as I also included these examples:

How about those that perform vivisection on slightly larger animals? Or farmers that raise veal calves or produce fois gras?

Now that you have brought up mice, if the children were pulling legs of mice in vivisection class would that make them psychopaths? If medical experiments were being conducted on animals in which they were clearly being put to a lot of pain, would that make the researchers psychopaths?

Actually, there's a very well-known and long-refined scale for psychopathy (first developed by Hillary), a version of which can be found here. There are no necessary traits of a psychopath, but a cluster of a subset of a larger number of traits can indicate the disorder. On the scale, most people score below 10. A score of 30 or more indicates psychopathy.

There is also a modified scale for children.

Hmmm...I didn't find anything about torturing animals in there.

 

[This is The End]

But why mammals? Do we not also think that geese and chickens can suffer as well?

Like all things it is a broad range, not black and white. Every lifeform from a piece of RNA called a virus to a human being. I said mammals so that way were are not spending our time on that argument.

 

[This is The End]

Now that you have brought up mice, if the children were pulling legs of mice in vivisection class would that make them psychopaths?

What vivisection class uses live animals?? You are both not thinking this through and thinking too much at the same time!!

 

[This is The End]

Hmmm...I didn't find anything about torturing animals in there.

It was not presented to you as being a collection of every single known psychopathic trait in the history of man.

 

[angrysoba]

Like all things it is a broad range, not black and white. Everywhere from a piece of rna called a virus to a human being. I said mammals so that way were are not spending our time on that argument.

It's a pointless and arbitrary distinction.

 

[This is The End]

It's a pointless and arbitrary distinction.

If you think there is no difference between killing a virus and killing a mammal you are not even worth having this discussion with.

Or, if that is not the case, let us just stick with mammals so we may continue the discussion.

It is up to you.

 

[angrysoba]

What vivisection class uses live animals??

All vivisection classes!

You are both not thinking this through and thinking too much at the same time!!

Look up the word "vivisection" before you embarrass yourself with any more of those insults.

 

[This is The End]

As a matter of fact, thinking that there is no difference between torturing a virus and torturing a mammal is a definite sign of a psychopath.

 

[This is The End]

All vivisection classes!



Look up the word "vivisection" before you embarrass yourself with any more of those insults.

I apologize, I thought you were talking about dissection. You got me there. And I would definitely say there is a huge problem if they are using anything much more advanced than insects.

 

[angrysoba]

If you think there is no difference between killing a virus and killing a mammal you are not even worth having this discussion with.

I didn't say that. I asked about chickens and geese. And don't start dictating the terms of the debate. In questions of animal cruelty and farming, chicken and geese welfare is an important subject.

Or, if that is not the case, let us just stick with mammals so we may continue the discussion.

It is up to you.

No, as I say, I don't recognize your authority in what we can and cannot talk about. I am on-topic by going beyond mammals.

 

[angrysoba]

As a matter of fact, thinking that there is no difference between torturing a virus and torturing a mammal is a definite sign of a psychopath.

Excuse me?

It was you who pretended I was thinking there is no difference. And on the basis of your mischaracterization of what I was saying you are now calling me a psychopath according to something you just made up!

 

[angrysoba]

It was not presented to you as being a collection of every single known psychopathic trait in the history of man.

Is it actually true at all? Whose expert opinion are you quoting here? Or is it merely an opinion you made up?

 

[This is The End]

I didn't say that.

Actually you did. You seriously need to start reading posts that you quote and respond to before you embarrass yourself:

Like all things it is a broad range, not black and white. Everywhere from a piece of rna called a virus to a human being. I said mammals so that way were are not spending our time on that argument.

It's a pointless and arbitrary distinction.

 

[This is The End]

And on the basis of your mischaracterization of what I was saying you are now calling me a psychopath according to something you just made up!

Not only did I not make it up but I just quoted the post. It's not going anywhere.

 

[This is The End]

Also, you have beautifully illustrated why I suggested that we contain the discussion to mammals 20 posts ago.

There is always someone who wants to find out where the line is. "But, but, you kill flies!!! Durrrrrr."

It is a distraction and we do not need it.