Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vibio]

From their definition of "notto" I assume that in Italy if someone goes to bed at 9:45 pm, that time is the night, but on that person waking at say, 11:30 pm, that time must be evening - since it's not yet midnight.

No...9.45 is the sera. It is normal in Italy to have dinner at 9.00. 9.45 is still considered early in Italy. This is a mediterranian country. If you are in bed at 11.00... Ok... Yes, you might refer to that as night, but no way would 9.45 be considered night.

 

[anglolawyer]

To be trite I wonder if this is a North Europe / South Europe split? I got up to go to the loo at one in the morning. Times after midnight tend to be called the morning. Times are defined by tea.

The morning is from midnight to midday. Early morning would be before breakfast, morning is from breakfast until elevenses, late morning from elevenses until lunch. Early afternoon would be from lunch until afternoon tea (usually at Betties), late afternoon is from afternoon tea until teatime (or high tea if there are guests and you get cake). When it becomes evening which is associated with twilight, then after supper (Ovaltine not tea this time) you get in to pyjamas and it is night. Night also means it is dark. Night lasts until light or in winter until breakfast.Is that clear?

very!

If you are ever interrogated the cops will get so bogged down in the detail of all these beverage breaks they will likely throw their hands in the air and close the enquiry.

 

[Samson]

very!

If you are ever interrogated the cops will get so bogged down in the detail of all these beverage breaks they will likely throw their hands in the air and close the enquiry.

If they anticipate spawning a thread like this they will get a second opinion about their great idea that first time killers realistically expect to get away with it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Damien Echols spoke about his case that the prosecutors and the judge saw the case as a way to climb up the political ladder. They execute him, imprison Jesse and Jason for the rest of their lives, and they get themselves promoted.

Of course the Italian legal system does not have the death penalty (and with as bad as their legal system seems to be, that would be scarier than Virginia) but I have to think that this case is the same otherwise.

As with the West Memphis Three, they did not expect people to scrutinize the case and go "What?"

 

[Kauffer]

The size of Meredith Kercher's room

The truth is that the room isn't very big. If you were standing in the entrance to Meredith's room, the print would be on the wall almost directly in front of you.

....9 feet and 6 inches away! For the continental Europeans, it's 2.9 metres.

Perhaps this has been covered in previous, more ancient threads, however the dimensions of the bedroom where the murder took place, it seems to me, are crucial to an appreciation of how impossibly difficult it would be to fit 4 people in there, a fight, an attack, a multiple stabbing and murder, and to extract from the post delictum crime scene only the evidence we see.

The room dimensions are, according to the plan in the Nencini report, in fact 3.36 x 2.9 metres, which translates to 11.03 x 9.52 feet.

Perhaps somebody who has calculated the amount of free space in the room with reference to the size of the floor tiles, can post those figures. Then, perhaps, we can try to place 4 people in it with a struggle, murder and prolific exsanguination together with the impact or otherwise of people with furniture. and look more closely at how likely it would be to produce this case's evidence picture.

I say it cannot be done. But I'm willing to consider any evidence which might refute my thesis. Vibio - care to try?

 

[Samson]

Damien Echols spoke about his case that the prosecutors and the judge saw the case as a way to climb up the political ladder. They execute him, imprison Jesse and Jason for the rest of their lives, and they get themselves promoted.

Of course the Italian legal system does not have the death penalty (and with as bad as their legal system seems to be, that would be scarier than Virginia) but I have to think that this case is the same otherwise.

As with the West Memphis Three, they did not expect people to scrutinize the case and go "What?"

Ironically this case would be solved rapidly if Amanda was on death row.

 

[platonov]

Alternate realities

If Raffaele had never given Amanda an alibi, he'd never have been arrested.

Doubtful but in any case - He was arrested when he broke her alibi & admitted he had lied earlier (at her request)

He could have thrown her to the wolves if he wished

Yes he could have, but his DNA on the bra-clasp would have made that more difficult, but that doesn't mean that I'm saying that the DNA wasn't a result of contamination. There's enough evidence to suggest that's what happened, but the court doesn't seem to want to admit it, which is why he would have a problem with it.

Regardless of this and what Platonov argues, it's still in Raffaele and Amanda's favor that he never did, in my opinion,

d

-

He did on the night of the 5th (before the bra clasp evidence came to light) and that’s what got him arrested. And led to AK accusing PL.

On this - You should have a word with his lawyers; they were singing a different tune.

Are we talking about the same case?

 

[platonov]

'May I be excused - my brain is full'

Fine, so he did provide an alibi. We all know this, those of us with half a brain anyway. Whatever the possible reasons for his arrest, they all come down to his having claimed that he and Amanda were together all night. An alibi.

See last post - it's not that complicated.

After being educated by a couple of posters on 'alibis'* I can assure you my whole brain was quite full. I had to excuse myself for a while.

*Apparently when a court finds that you were together with a co accused in the commission of a murder at a specific location that counts as an alibi. Who knew ?

 

[Desert Fox]

Ironically this case would be solved rapidly if Amanda was on death row.

It took something like 18 years for him and even then he ended up with an Allford plea. We have to be honest with these cases.

I wish we had an Italian poster who was not a guilter and could at least show us that their system works in most cases.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The Luca v Italy case has everything to do with Guede and whatever judicial information is derived from his testimony, statements, documents, evidence, trials, etc. and is brought over to the Knox-Sollecito trials.

In this ECHR judgment there is a summary of the changes that the Italian parliament made in the Italian Constitution, Article 111, and the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure to prevent the use of testimony, statements, evidence, and so on from a person who legally refuses to be cross-examined into another defendant's trial, because such use, lacking cross-examination, violates the adversarial principle and is thus unfair. It is a violation of ECHR Article 6.3.

In this judgment, the ECtHR criticizes the Italian Constitutional Court for a certain decision allowing such uncross-examined testimony from one person into another defendant's trial, as being "...not pertinent."

There would not be a relationship with Knox's application relating to the calunnia conviction, as long as there is no use of Guede's uncross-examined information contributing to that conviction. As far as I am aware, there is no such contribution in Hellmann's verdict.

As I have said the ECHR is a treasure trove of information.

The Court dealt with 2,950 applications concerning Italy in 2013, of which 2872 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 39 judgments (concerning 78 applications), 34 of which found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Link to the above information Italy 2013 - Profile Document

The figures speak for themselves, little wonder there is wide spread agreement amongst member states that the ECHR requires reform. A 2012 article from UK Guardian newspaper. `

As I have said we do not know the strength of the slander application but as the figures show of the 2,950 applications against Italy in 2013 only 39 resulted in judgements.

 

[Kauffer]

Barking dog barking again

See last post - it's not that complicated.

After being educated by a couple of posters on 'alibis'* I can assure you my whole brain was quite full. I had to excuse myself for a while.

*Apparently when a court finds that you were together with a co accused in the commission of a murder at a specific location that counts as an alibi. Who knew ?

I know it has been utterly impossible for you to understand this subject but Mr Sollecito's position is clear. All three trial courts are clear on the subject too. This is not a substantive issue whatsoever. Only your disreputable group is saying it believes Mr Sollecito's position is that Ms Knox went out.

Of course, if your position is that Mr Sollecito is not guilty because he stayed in on the night of the murder....Is that what you think?

 

[Desert Fox]

As I have said the ECHR is a treasure trove of information.

The Court dealt with 2,950 applications concerning Italy in 2013, of which 2872 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 39 judgments (concerning 78 applications), 34 of which found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Link to the above information Italy 2013 - Profile Document

The figures speak for themselves, little wonder there is wide spread agreement amongst member states that the ECHR requires reform. A 2012 article from UK Guardian newspaper. `

As I have said we do not know the strength of the slander application but as the figures show of the 2,950 applications against Italy in 2013 only 39 resulted in judgements.

If it is anything like the United States, just about every case is appealed to to higher courts with the biggest exceptions being those that were pleaded out. Most likely do not have merit. This case does however seem to have merit.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wonder if this is a generational issue. I use my phone as my alarm clock. If i woke at night and wanted to check the time I look on my phone. If there was a message there I would check it then roll over and go back to sleep. I think Nencini imagines some sort of answer phone sitting in another room where you would have to get up and listen to recorded messages,

It is incredible to think that Nencini thinks his alibi analysis in those 25 pages deconstructs Amanda's alibi. What's even more incredible is that anyone believes it.

Here it is 3:50 am and i can guarantee I am not up and around. Barely sentient actually. And two minutes from, on either side deep REM sleep.

It would be worth the laugh calling Nencini a moron, except innocents could be sentenced to 25/28 years on this nonsense.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

If it is anything like the United States, just about every case is appealed to to higher courts with the biggest exceptions being those that were pleaded out. Most likely do not have merit. This case does however seem to have merit.

This is the problem with the ECHR presently; 2, 950 applications against Italy in 2013 suggest that a number of individuals believed their application had merit, only 39 succeed in judgements against Italy. The growing concern (criticism) amongst member states ECHR is being swamped by individual applications that have no merit as the 2013 figures for Italy clearly show.

I would say it is worse than the US, lets not forget ECHR includes Russia, Moldova and Turkey in recent years; as the membership has increased with new states so too has the number of applications.

 

[LondonJohn]

This is the problem with the ECHR presently; 2, 950 applications against Italy in 2013 suggest that a number of individuals believed their application had merit, only 39 succeed in judgements against Italy. The growing concern (criticism) amongst member states ECHR is being swamped by individual applications that have no merit as the 2013 figures for Italy clearly show.

I would say it is worse than the US, lets not forget ECHR includes Russia, Moldova and Turkey in recent years; as the membership has increased with new states so too has the number of applications.

Unfortunately you're using poor logic in suggesting that because a) most of the Italian applications to the ECHR are thrown out for having no merit, this therefore b) automatically calls into question the merit of Knox's application.

I realise that you may have a particular agenda, but the objective process to pursue on this issue is NOT to draw illogical inferences from the raw ratio of applications to judgements of breach. Rather, the objective, rational, sceptical approach is to try to find ECHR applications with apparently similar features/dynamics to Knox's application, and see whether the court found them to have merit, ruled that there was a breach of the Convention and ordered restitution. This is what Numbers and others have been doing. It would of course be interesting to see whether seemingly similar cases had been dismissed by the ECHR, but of course that information is vastly more difficult (if not impossible) to find.

As of now, it seems that the ECHR has recently found in favour of the applicant in well over a dozen cases that bear reasonable comparison with Knox's application. And that is the salient point to consider here.


As someone once said: "Lied, damn lies, and statistics"

 

[LondonJohn]

How are you getting on with fitting 4 people into a struggle, a stabbing, a murder where the victim bled out, a sexual assault and an ejaculation into Ms Kercher's 11ft x 9ft 6 inch - (3.36m x 2.9m) bedroom, with the evidence left behind?

Is that your joke of the day?

Not to mention the fact that the actual "usable" floor space in that room was of course far less that the room's wall dimensions. There's a 2.5ft x 6ft single bed to consider, plus a desk that had a footprint of about 3ft x 1.5ft and a wardrobe with a similar footprint.

This means that the actual floor space upon which the attack occurred is probably something in the order of 8ft x 8ft max.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Unfortunately you're using poor logic in suggesting that because a) most of the Italian applications to the ECHR are thrown out for having no merit, this therefore b) automatically calls into question the merit of Knox's application.

I realise that you may have a particular agenda, but the objective process to pursue on this issue is NOT to draw illogical inferences from the raw ratio of applications to judgements of breach. Rather, the objective, rational, sceptical approach is to try to find ECHR applications with apparently similar features/dynamics to Knox's application, and see whether the court found them to have merit, ruled that there was a breach of the Convention and ordered restitution. This is what Numbers and others have been doing. It would of course be interesting to see whether seemingly similar cases had been dismissed by the ECHR, but of course that information is vastly more difficult (if not impossible) to find.

As of now, it seems that the ECHR has recently found in favour of the applicant in well over a dozen cases that bear reasonable comparison with Knox's application. And that is the salient point to consider here.


As someone once said: "Lied, damn lies, and statistics"

The figures for 2013 speak for themselves logic is not required, check I have provided the links. As for an agenda, my only purpose is to set out context and as such in 2013 97% of applications against Italy were rejected.

Like the rest of us, you do not know the basis of the slander application, at best you can guess which of course is your prerogative.

 

[Kauffer]

ECHR

The figures for 2013 speak for themselves logic is not required, check I have provided the links. As for an agenda, my only purpose is to set out context and as such in 2013 97% of applications against Italy were rejected.

Like the rest of us, you do not know the basis of the slander application, at best you can guess which of course is your prerogative.

Huge numbers of cases are submitted to the ECHR either without any merit or for entirely trivial reasons. Ms Knox's case does not fall in these categories. Very serious issues with wide ranging significance are at stake.

I could submit a case tomorrow without anyone else's involvement alleging that the British government has infringed my human rights by not providing me with free cornflakes for my breakfast. It would still count in the statistics.

The stats you quote have no bearing on her prospects.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Huge numbers of cases are submitted to the ECHR either without any merit or for entirely trivial reasons. Ms Knox's case does not fall in these categories. Very serious issues with wide ranging significance are at stake.

I could submit a case tomorrow without anyone else's involvement alleging that the British government has infringed my human rights by not providing me with free cornflakes for my breakfast. It would still count in the statistics.
The stats you quote have no bearing on her prospects.

I cannot say you are wrong about the slander case. However, as I seem to be repeating none of us know the content of the application, sure we can make assumption for the sake of discussion but we do not know its legal merits.

This is interesting, are you saying when someone posts Italy has one of the highest ECHR applications rates against it that this is statistically irrelevant?

 

[Kauffer]

I cannot say you are wrong about the slander case. However, as I seem to be repeating none of us know the content of the application, sure we can make assumption for the sake of discussion but we do not know its legal merits.

This is interesting, are you saying when someone posts Italy has one of the highest ECHR applications rates against it that this is statistically irrelevant?

I'm saying you need to interrogate the statistics for useful information, as LondonJohn has suggested. There is plenty of evidence that Italy's judicial system is failing, particularly with regard to repeated abuses of the notion of suspect status and length of trials. These are consistent themes commented on by a range of institutions.