Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

RWVBWL

Nice catch.

 

[LondonJohn]

RWVBWL

Nice catch.

Yes, though it's somewhat irrelevant whether Mignini is carrying a mobile phone or a handheld digital dictaphone in that photo, since this doesn't meet the required standard of audio recording for full court admissibility anyhow.

The crucial difference is the simultaneous dual recording to two different storage media (whether that's two cassette tapes or two CD-Rs). That way, one of the storage media can be sealed in the presence of the suspect, which is a very effective way of ensuring that the other, working, copy of the storage media does not get tampered with (e.g. by erasing part of the recording or even adding new material). It also means that there's no chance of the original recording getting mysteriously "lost" once the transcripts are produced.

I suspect that Mignini used a dictaphone for his own personal ends. People who have malpractice on their mind are often surprisingly keen to record their interactions with others for personal use. Just sayin'

 

[carbonjam72]

But they had no reason to place him at the scene of the crime - he wasn't in Amanda's "confession". So why did they? Were the Nikes in play at the point of arrest or a few days later?

Because he claimed to have been home with Amanda all night. How can they pressure him if he's isn't being accused of participating, as an alternative to their both being innocent.

They need to create an incentive for Raf to give up Amanda to the flames, otherwise, they're stuck. They had to charge Raf, or let Amanda go.

 

[Numbers]

It is not really about the predictability of the ECHR, it is simply down to the logistics of processing applications and prioritising cases. I believe the slander application was submitted just over a year ago, at this stage it obviously has not passed through the admissibility phase as if it had it would be reported in the media, therefore if does become a case it become of the thousands waiting for a judgement.

Here is a press release on admissibility for your information; it's more newsworthy than many others. Interstate applications are relatively rare:

http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home

Inter-State applications: Ukraine v. Russia

The Court invited the Russian Government to submit its observations on the admissibility of 2 inter-State applications lodged by the Government of Ukraine against the Russian Federation.
The first application concerns the events in Crimea from March 2014 and developments in the Eastern regions of Ukraine; the second application concerns the alleged abduction of 3 groups of children in Eastern Ukraine and their temporary transfer to Russia on 3 occasions between June and August 2014.

There are also more than 160 individual applications pending before the Court related to the events in Crimea and to the developments in Eastern Ukraine

 

[carbonjam72]

Reflections on Risk free slander

Vibio, please. Give it a rest, will you? Most ordinary rooms are sufficiently sound proof without the need for special padding or dampening. I have been in many of them, both in police stations, prisons and government buildings. They use ordinary rooms. The introduction of taped interviews did not require special building operations at all these places, just recording equipment.

Even if that were wrong (and it isn't) it has been pointed out to you that the cops were bugging conversations and spending a fortune tapping thousands of telephone calls. They spent 189,000 euros on a stupid cartoon! They had money to burn.

I believe the bill for the cartoon was presented to the Knox family.

It seems obvious this session was crucial to the case and should have ben recorded, as required by law.

But why aren't Vibio and other pro-guilt people, concerned about

- Stef committing perjury on the witness stand,
- the forensic police destroying the defendants computers one after another - and then refusing to allow a access to repair the machines or except the defense experts report on them;
- refusing to test the semen stain,
- refusing to test the broken glass fragments from the window Guede used to break in,
- refusing to test the white powder on the clothes in the break-in room, - Stef's concealed DNA files from upstairs and downstairs as well
- The ISC requiring that Curatolo, a homeless heroin addict and serial witness must be considered credible as a matter of law -
- Holding Amanda and Raf to the results of Guede's trial, and ever changing story, without representation or the ability to cross examine Guede.

I'm sure list of problems goes on and on. But the Pro-guilt posters have no problems with any of it. Yet refuse to be specific about what they DO believe happened, whether Raf IS guilty, whether Amanda WAS in the murder room - and if not, how she could have struck the fatal blow.

The whole case is a travesty. It's just amazing the residual hatred of two clearly innocent people these folks feel perfectly free to express, shamelessly, gleefully, even proud of themselves. I do believe their behavior is identical to the McCann trolls, and criminal prosecution for these slanders is wholly appropriate for them all. Even in the event of ISC confirming, the slanders should be brought into courts with functioning judiciaries, and put to the test of credibility and a recklessness and malicious disregard for the truth.

 

[Numbers]

It is not really about the predictability of the ECHR, it is simply down to the logistics of processing applications and prioritising cases. I believe the slander application was submitted just over a year ago, at this stage it obviously has not passed through the admissibility phase as if it had it would be reported in the media, therefore if does become a case it become of the thousands waiting for a judgement.

Regarding the application of Amanda Knox, it does not appear in a database of filings against Italy that have been decided as "inadmissible" that I searched some moments ago. Thus, it is still in the ECHR system.

 

[Vibio]

That Sony looks nothing like the cell phone Giancarlo is holding in his hand. Even the side embelishment is completely different. But don't let that stop the Amandites (even those with sun-kissed cheeks, beach blonde hair, board shorts and sagging pectorals).

That Sony looks as much like Mignini's cellphone as this does:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/199409/size/big

If the LG isn't good enough, here's a 2006 Nokia... the snazziest cell phone of the era... with the side embellishment:

http://www.brighthand.com/phonereview/nokia-6682-review/

 

[Welshman]

I believe the bill for the cartoon was presented to the Knox family.

It seems obvious this session was crucial to the case and should have ben recorded, as required by law.

But why aren't Vibio and other pro-guilt people, concerned about

- Stef committing perjury on the witness stand,
- the forensic police destroying the defendants computers one after another - and then refusing to allow a access to repair the machines or except the defense experts report on them;
- refusing to test the semen stain,
- refusing to test the broken glass fragments from the window Guede used to break in,
- refusing to test the white powder on the clothes in the break-in room, - Stef's concealed DNA files from upstairs and downstairs as well
- The ISC requiring that Curatolo, a homeless heroin addict and serial witness must be considered credible as a matter of law -
- Holding Amanda and Raf to the results of Guede's trial, and ever changing story, without representation or the ability to cross examine Guede.

I'm sure list of problems goes on and on. But the Pro-guilt posters have no problems with any of it. Yet refuse to be specific about what they DO believe happened, whether Raf IS guilty, whether Amanda WAS in the murder room - and if not, how she could have struck the fatal blow.

The whole case is a travesty. It's just amazing the residual hatred of two clearly innocent people these folks feel perfectly free to express, shamelessly, gleefully, even proud of themselves. I do believe their behavior is identical to the McCann trolls, and criminal prosecution for these slanders is wholly appropriate for them all. Even in the event of ISC confirming, the slanders should be brought into courts with functioning judiciaries, and put to the test of credibility and a recklessness and malicious disregard for the truth.

If the prosecution had a strong case, why did they not want the evidence tested?

 

[Numbers]

Sadly, this beautiful judgment and partly concordant opinion was a little too long as a post. I do recommend those interested read it; it is highly relevant and informative.

Also, the nasty thing the ECtHR said about the Italian Constitutional Court's judgment is a judicial classic: "...not pertinent".

For those interested, here is another class in the Remedial ECHR Case Law Course.

How about what rock'n'roll radio DJs would call a Golden Oldie.....

And it's a relevant case in several ways:
1) It relates to a person convicted on the basis of statements from someone who legally refuses to be cross-examined
2) It deals with apparent conflicts between several of a nation's laws
3) It deals with conflict between a nation's laws and the ECHR
4) It mentions unfavorably how a nation's courts defy the ECHR

CASE OF LUCÀ v. ITALY 33354/96 27/02/2001 {excerpts; emphasis added}

 

[AmyStrange]

-

I think if he did not argue that she was with him, the bra clasp would have never come up or would have been explained as contamination.

You second point is solid however. The guilty almost always turn on each other. They almost always will blame innocents as well if it can get them a lighter sentence.

-

We'll never know now of course, but it's still an interesting question none the less DF,

d

-

 

[Bill Williams]

That Sony looks nothing like the cell phone Giancarlo is holding in his hand. Even the side embelishment is completely different. But don't let that stop the Amandites (even those with sun-kissed cheeks, beach blonde hair, board shorts and sagging pectorals).

That Sony looks as much like Mignini's cellphone as this does:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/199409/size/big

If the LG isn't good enough, here's a 2006 Nokia... the snazziest cell phone of the era... with the side embellishment:

http://www.brighthand.com/phonereview/nokia-6682-review/

Yada yada yada.

Do you also care to take a shot at whether or not Raffaele has a point:

If you insist that I am saying that Amanda went out, or that you believe your evidence demonstrates that she in fact did...... what then does this whole case have to do with me?

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, though it's somewhat irrelevant whether Mignini is carrying a mobile phone or a handheld digital dictaphone in that photo, since this doesn't meet the required standard of audio recording for full court admissibility anyhow.

The crucial difference is the simultaneous dual recording to two different storage media (whether that's two cassette tapes or two CD-Rs). That way, one of the storage media can be sealed in the presence of the suspect, which is a very effective way of ensuring that the other, working, copy of the storage media does not get tampered with (e.g. by erasing part of the recording or even adding new material). It also means that there's no chance of the original recording getting mysteriously "lost" once the transcripts are produced.

I suspect that Mignini used a dictaphone for his own personal ends. People who have malpractice on their mind are often surprisingly keen to record their interactions with others for personal use. Just sayin'

All true LJ but don't you think it would have been useful for Mig, and the other investigators, to keep notes of all their interactions with witnesses, suspects etc? I know that's what I do. Every time I put the phone down I make a note of what was said and I never see a client or a witness without a notebook to take down what they say. Otherwise, I forget what they tell me. I find it very odd that a two hour interview should yield a single sheet of typed paper, half of which is formal content.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

That Sony looks nothing like the cell phone Giancarlo is holding in his hand. Even the side embelishment is completely different. But don't let that stop the Amandites (even those with sun-kissed cheeks, beach blonde hair, board shorts and sagging pectorals).

That Sony looks as much like Mignini's cellphone as this does:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/199409/size/big

If the LG isn't good enough, here's a 2006 Nokia... the snazziest cell phone of the era... with the side embellishment:

http://www.brighthand.com/phonereview/nokia-6682-review/

-

Except the screen in Mignini's hand doesn't look dark like your Nokia photo, while the Sony's light screen matches it better, in my opinion. Plus, the Sony looks more slender and longer, like the one in his hand. Why is that?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it. And regardless any way, you can use a phone to record things, so I really don't understand why you're hung up on this?

d

-

 

[Samson]

I believe the bill for the cartoon was presented to the Knox family.
It seems obvious this session was crucial to the case and should have ben recorded, as required by law.

But why aren't Vibio and other pro-guilt people, concerned about

- Stef committing perjury on the witness stand,
- the forensic police destroying the defendants computers one after another - and then refusing to allow a access to repair the machines or except the defense experts report on them;
- refusing to test the semen stain,
- refusing to test the broken glass fragments from the window Guede used to break in,
- refusing to test the white powder on the clothes in the break-in room, - Stef's concealed DNA files from upstairs and downstairs as well
- The ISC requiring that Curatolo, a homeless heroin addict and serial witness must be considered credible as a matter of law -
- Holding Amanda and Raf to the results of Guede's trial, and ever changing story, without representation or the ability to cross examine Guede.

I'm sure list of problems goes on and on. But the Pro-guilt posters have no problems with any of it. Yet refuse to be specific about what they DO believe happened, whether Raf IS guilty, whether Amanda WAS in the murder room - and if not, how she could have struck the fatal blow.

The whole case is a travesty. It's just amazing the residual hatred of two clearly innocent people these folks feel perfectly free to express, shamelessly, gleefully, even proud of themselves. I do believe their behavior is identical to the McCann trolls, and criminal prosecution for these slanders is wholly appropriate for them all. Even in the event of ISC confirming, the slanders should be brought into courts with functioning judiciaries, and put to the test of credibility and a recklessness and malicious disregard for the truth.

Knowledge would trump belief and be more fun. Any citation?

 

[Desert Fox]

- the forensic police destroying the defendants computers one after another - and then refusing to allow a access to repair the machines or except the defense experts report on them;

I spoke to a cyber security expert on this case and she has trouble believing that anybody with proper knowledge could do something like what was done. Either the Italian computer experts are utterly incompetent or it was deliberate.

I know that I have read somewhere exactly what happened (or was suppose to have happened with the computers) but does anybody know the URL for it so I can send it to my friend?

 

[Vibio]

I love the Knoxian culture: I (or any other non-cult member) posts in response to an on going conversation (in this case a conversation about the object in Mignini's hand) they then invariably shoot back with a totally unrelated question.


-----------

Yada yada yada.

Do you also care to take a shot at whether or not Raffaele has a point:

If you insist that I am saying that Amanda went out, or that you believe your evidence demonstrates that she in fact did...... what then does this whole case have to do with me?

Well gee Bill Williams... Yada yada yada and bla, bla, bla to you too.

I discussed and gave my opinion here about the knife-carrier's statements at his PR event months and months ago.

Please try to keep up.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

I spoke to a cyber security expert on this case and she has trouble believing that anybody with proper knowledge could do something like what was done. Either the Italian computer experts are utterly incompetent or it was deliberate.

I know that I have read somewhere exactly what happened (or was suppose to have happened with the computers) but does anybody know the URL for it so I can send it to my friend?

-

Plus, I believe you can still access data from a broken computer. You literally have to break a hard drive into pieces before it becomes virtually impossible to recover said data, unless flash memory is used as the hard drive memory receptacle. Ask your expert if I'm right here or not,

d

-

 

[LondonJohn]

I spoke to a cyber security expert on this case and she has trouble believing that anybody with proper knowledge could do something like what was done. Either the Italian computer experts are utterly incompetent or it was deliberate.

I know that I have read somewhere exactly what happened (or was suppose to have happened with the computers) but does anybody know the URL for it so I can send it to my friend?

In essence, someone at the "crack" Postal Police's forensic computer destruction examination unit fried the logic boards of the hard drives. They can only have done so by applying a much higher voltage than required to the hard drives. Most hard drives take 5V DC, but it appears in this case that much higher voltages (12V minimum, if not higher) were applied. This takes a special level of incompetence (or misconduct), since the power connectors to these boards should only be compatible with a 5V feed from a power supply. So some idiot either used the right connector but somehow managed to feed it a high-voltage supply, or they didn't use a connector at all and simply applied a ground line and a voltage line of their (idiotic) choosing direct to the power rails of the logic board.

It's such a massive and fundamental error that - as many have pointed out - it's perhaps too extreme even to be classified as sheer incompetence. I guess we shall never know. But either way it's another damning indictment of the "crack forensics" work in this case.

Here's a link to the English translation of Sollecito's defence expert's report that was recently made available:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Defence_Computer_Expert_Report_(English)

 

[Samson]

I am Queen Marie of Romania.

If I am getting warm on gender I'm sure John Le Carre will solve the rest.

 

[Kauffer]

Oh dear

That Sony looks nothing like the cell phone Giancarlo is holding in his hand. Even the side embelishment is completely different. But don't let that stop the Amandites (even those with sun-kissed cheeks, beach blonde hair, board shorts and sagging pectorals).

That Sony looks as much like Mignini's cellphone as this does:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/199409/size/big

If the LG isn't good enough, here's a 2006 Nokia... the snazziest cell phone of the era... with the side embellishment:

http://www.brighthand.com/phonereview/nokia-6682-review/

Incapable of dealing with matters of real evidence you confine yourself to trying to prove that the prosecutor has a telephone and not a tape recorder whilst admitting you know nothing about the science in the case yet are happy to insult scientists. Other than that we have floods of unsubstantiated claims from you in connection with the real evidence and utter silence when, one after another, these claims are refuted. No one takes such a humiliating metaphorical thumping on this site without realising they've been thumped, quite like you. It's rather impressive in it's own way.