Michael Brown shooting II

[marplots]

Only because they insist on a narrative that is unsupported by the overwhelming majority of evidence.

And it's obvious that the lynch mob isn't about to objectively examine the evidence, which is pretty much why civilized society doesn't condone justice via lynch mob.

I disagree with this analysis. Even accepting all the evidence and the narrative that puts Wilson in the best light, I still don't want to see unarmed teens shot down in the streets.

The problem isn't just with interpretation of the evidence, the problem is an unwillingness to accept the outcome as even a little bit desirable. Legally justified or not, something has to change. If Wilson's training demanded the death of Brown, then that training needs to change.

 

[carlitos]

Maybe he didn't do anything illegal, but the protestors - the community he polices - disagree about the "wrong" part.

The "protestors" burned down a bunch of local businesses, looted stores, took selfies and laughed about it. Who gives a **** what they think?

ETA - and at least one of Mr. Brown's family entourage could conceivably be guilty of inciting a riot, shouting "burn this ***** down" in the midst of a highly charged protest.

That's not even close to the root cause of what happened.

The root cause is a combination of a community that doesn't trust their own government/justice system and a government/justice system that doesn't respect their own community (or portions thereof). It's a negative feedback loop where every bad behavior confirms the bias of the other group, allowing for a lot of legitimate and short-sighted finger pointing, and its been building for generations. I'm not talking about just Ferguson.

Very few want to address or even acknowledge this because it is very hard to gloat when you can't isolate all the blame in one place or person.

The "root cause" of some stoned 18-year-old punk stealing blunts, intimidating a store owner and assaulting a police officer, trying to take his gun away? Give me a break. I can buy the "root cause" argument for a mob rioting due to frustration (especially around St. Louis), but not for those individual actions of Mr. Brown. A common criminal acting like a common criminal.

We have posters in this "critical thinking" thread musing that the cop was a "racist jerk," that he should know some brand of martial arts that work from inside a car window, or that he was on steroids. Come on, people.

 

[marplots]

The "protestors" burned down a bunch of local businesses, looted stores, took selfies and laughed about it. Who gives a **** what they think?

ETA - and at least one of Mr. Brown's family entourage could conceivably be guilty of inciting a riot, shouting "burn this ***** down" in the midst of a highly charged protest.

They didn't do any of that before the shooting. Maybe there's a cause and effect relationship. I'll even propose it stems from exactly this kind of attitude: "Who gives a **** what they think?"

 

[WildCat]

They didn't do any of that before the shooting. Maybe there's a cause and effect relationship. I'll even propose it stems from exactly this kind of attitude: "Who gives a **** what they think?"

And once again you come out in support of lynch mobs.

Emmet Till must have done something to incite such strong feelings in the lynch mob that killed him! How dare you demean them!

 

[marplots]

And once again you come out in support of lynch mobs.

Emmet Till must have done something to incite such strong feelings in the lynch mob that killed him! How dare you demean them!

Can I just translate "lynch mob" as the plural of "thug?"

Once you write off a class of people - and let's not forget, these are the citizens of that community - but once you label them appropriately, why we can do whatever we want and skate. It will be "justified."

Remind me. Who got lynched in Ferguson again? Isn't that kind of the defining characteristic of a lynch mob? But no matter, shoot 'em all. So long as I fear for my life, it's a good shoot.

I eagerly await the next gradation. When we move down the scale and call them "animals."

 

[BStrong]

That is one of the issues. Why did he choose to be alone with a dangerous subject? Was he afraid the dangerous subject was going to get away if he waited for backup? Was he afraid that the dangerous subject would kill somebody else?

Both seem unlikely based on the knowledge Wilson had at the time he got out of the car and proceeded to chase Brown. If Brown chose to stand and fight Wilson was down to one option, if he was going to save himself, he would need to shoot Brown because Brown had already demonstrated at least equal physical capabilities and Wilson couldn't risk allowing Brown to get his gun.

Additionally, if he really believed that Brown and Johnson were such dangerous criminals then how could he have done something that would leave Johnson in a position to attack him from behind? Wilson may not be able to figure out what he might have done differently, but that goes a lot more to why Wilson was not a good cop then that there weren't other options.

It is very doubtful that Wilson's first interaction with Brown and Johnson went the way he claims it did in the face of the Arman video. Wilson had probably created a tense situation by an unnecessarily rude confrontation with Brown and Johnson who didn't react well to it. Then Wilson backs up and goes cowboy. Why didn't he wait for back up at that time? were the suspects running away?

And after his first cowboy move leads to a bad result he goes cowboy again and starts a dangerous single handed chase of the suspect that was probably going to end in his death or the death of a suspect that might be too excited to calm down sufficiently to submit to arrest from a guy he had plenty of reason to be afraid of.

I want it made clear that I have no knowledge of what went on that night other than what has been made public, but as a matter of course officers everywhere often find themselves in situations not of their making and it's part of the job to cope with situations that occur out of the blue - see my account above about one of our officers disarmed and shot.

 

[WildCat]

Can I just translate "lynch mob" as the plural of "thug?"

Once you write off a class of people - and let's not forget, these are the citizens of that community - but once you label them appropriately, why we can do whatever we want and skate. It will be "justified."

Remind me. Who got lynched in Ferguson again? Isn't that kind of the defining characteristic of a lynch mob? But no matter, shoot 'em all. So long as I fear for my life, it's a good shoot.

I eagerly await the next gradation. When we move down the scale and call them "animals."

The rioting in Ferguson is because the lynch mob has been denied their prize.

Unbelievable you're here defending lynch mobs now. Well not really since in other threads you've admitted to trolling for the lulz.

 

[Upchurch]

The rioting in Ferguson is because the lynch mob has been denied their prize.

Lynch mobs prize trials?

 

[NoahFence]

They didn't do any of that before the justified shooting. Maybe there's a cause and effect relationship. I'll even propose it stems from exactly this kind of attitude: "Who gives a **** what they think?"

FTFY.

 

[marplots]

The rioting in Ferguson is because the lynch mob has been denied their prize.

Unbelievable you're here defending lynch mobs now. Well not really since in other threads you've admitted to trolling for the lulz.

I thought you were being hyperbolic. Now it sounds like you are being serious. Color me stunned.

 

[marplots]

FTFY.

Yeah, that makes it all better. Now the animals can go back in their pens until the next time there's a shooting, at which point they can be free to express their outrage... until... wait for it... no problem, it's justified.

 

[NoahFence]

Yeah, that makes it all better. Now the animals can go back in their pens until the next time there's a shooting, at which point they can be free to express their outrage... until... wait for it... no problem, it's justified.

So did you see the video where an elderly man ON OXYGEN got carjacked, and run over?

I'm VERY comfortable calling these thugs "animals" thank you.

Actually check that - it's an insult to animals.

 

[eeyore1954]

I disagree with this analysis. Even accepting all the evidence and the narrative that puts Wilson in the best light, I still don't want to see unarmed teens shot down in the streets.

The problem isn't just with interpretation of the evidence, the problem is an unwillingness to accept the outcome as even a little bit desirable. Legally justified or not, something has to change. If Wilson's training demanded the death of Brown, then that training needs to change.

Did you mean willingness or little bit undesirable?

Few people see the outcome as desirable and who wants to see unarmed (although The unarmed part has little to do with it in my opinion) teens shot down in the streets?
I don't know that his training "demanded" the death of brown.

Training is good but it can never replace split second life or death decision. And it appears that in this case that quick life or death decision was necessitated by Brown's action.

 

[carlitos]

Yeah, that makes it all better. Now the animals can go back in their pens until the next time there's a shooting, at which point they can be free to express their outrage... until... wait for it... no problem, it's justified.

Some of their pens are burned down. And they have to gallop much further from the pen to get take-out Chinese or pizza.

 

[Bikewer]

You have a whole lof of people who bought into the "shot down in cold blood" scenario and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make any impression on them, just as mountains of scientific evidence will make no impression on the anti-vax crowd.
3 different autopsies all came to the same conclusion.... But these people still believe that Brown was on his knees, begging for mercy, and shot in the back.
3 different medical authorities, one hired by the family, all say this is nonsense. But it's still believed.

I continue to hear utter nonsense. "Brown should not have been executed for stealing cigarettes!"

Brown was shot for viciously assaulting a police officer who was simply trying to do his job, not for stealing.
Almost all the commentary I hear conveniently forgets that moments before, Brown had committed a felonious strongarm robbery and still had the fruits of that robbery on his person.

I'm still convinced of the scenario I proposed when this all started.

Brown, high as a kite, commits a strongarm robbery. He's walking from the scene and suddenly here's the cops. Suddenly reality rears it's ugly head..... No college, prison. He's going away.... He's legally an adult, after all. He panicks. Attacks the officer. Goes into the "I can't go to jail" mode any police officer has seen dozens of times. Totally irrational. On autopilot.
Tragedy results.

 

[carlitos]

So did you see the video where an elderly man ON OXYGEN got carjacked, and run over?

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_20781.shtml

That was disturbing. I'd like to know what the "root cause" for that was.

 

[Ammonitida]

Can I just translate "lynch mob" as the plural of "thug?"

Once you write off a class of people - and let's not forget, these are the citizens of that community - but once you label them appropriately, why we can do whatever we want and skate. It will be "justified."

Remind me. Who got lynched in Ferguson again? Isn't that kind of the defining characteristic of a lynch mob? But no matter, shoot 'em all. So long as I fear for my life, it's a good shoot.

I eagerly await the next gradation. When we move down the scale and call them "animals."

They don't have the numerical power or the knowledge of Wilson's whereabouts to lynch him physically, but they certainly would if they could get their hands on him. Darren Wilson is a modern day Emmit Till, except that he's alive (partly thanks to his ethnic group's numerical superiority) and white.

 

[eeyore1954]

That's not even close to the root cause of what happened.

The root cause is a combination of a community that doesn't trust their own government/justice system and a government/justice system that doesn't respect their own community (or portions thereof). It's a negative feedback loop where every bad behavior confirms the bias of the other group, allowing for a lot of legitimate and short-sighted finger pointing, and its been building for generations. I'm not talking about just Ferguson.

Very few want to address or even acknowledge this because it is very hard to gloat when you can't isolate all the blame in one place or person.

I am not gloating over what happened but the root cause was Michael Brown's behavior that day. I am not saying he deserved it but if he had not committed the crime in store he would not have died that day. And if he had reacted differently when the policeman talked to him he very likely would be alive.

 

[Ziggurat]

Lynch mobs prize trials?

Don't kid yourself. It's not a trial they wanted, it's that officer punished. If the case was sent to trial and he was acquitted (which he would have been, and which is why not bringing it to trial is the right thing to do), would the mob have been placated? Of course not. Because it's not the trial that they want.

 

[marplots]

So did you see the video where an elderly man ON OXYGEN got carjacked, and run over?

I'm VERY comfortable calling these thugs "animals" thank you.

Actually check that - it's an insult to animals.

No, I didn't see the video. But the problem isn't with calling specific acts criminal and those committing the acts criminals, the problem is when you lump an outraged community into the same bucket to score points and paint the whole class with the broad brush. The yelling mother who lost her son is paired with the gangsters who tip over a police car. This is, if nothing else, hardly worthy of a forum of critical thinkers and skeptics.