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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Agree with all of that. Unfortunately, Machiavelli account is effectively using the the gaps in the work of investigators against Ms Knox - reversing the burden of proof. What he simply cannot seem to understand is that a failure to confirm blood by testing cannot be twisted to mean that the absence of blood has not been proved and that therefore there remains circumstantial evidence for the existence of blood upon which a court may reasonably rely. It is outrageous.

This is a burden of proof question. We already know that even Italian law does not permit the use of circumstantial evidence that is not precise - in this case, the alleged circumstantial evidence of Ms Knox having committed the murder being that Ms Kercher's blood found in Ms Knox's bare footprints outside the bedroom is supportive of a finding of guilt despite there being no evidence whatsoever that she tracked the blood from the bedroom into the hallway.


I agree. First off, a critical factor to note is that regardless of the nature and outcome of whatever TMB tests may or may not have been done in this case, a positive confirmatory test is always required in order to state with proper confidence that there was human blood present.

Secondly, on the value of circumstantial evidence, I remember a little while ago here we had a discussion on the relative probative value of this sort of stuff. I would totally agree with Anglo (IIRC) that a Luminol positive is circumstantial evidence, from which one is entitled to draw the inference that human blood may have been present.

Unfortunately, here is yet another area where I think the defence teams erred massively in the Massei trial and subsequent appeals. They should have argued very strongly (and correctly) that Luminol positives without 2-part TMB positives (for blood), let alone without any confirmatory positives, mean that the inference of blood present can only be an extremely weak one, and should therefore be hugely discounted as unreliable by the court.

I realise the defence teams argued (correctly) that many other substances could give Luminol false positives, but they should have made it explicitly clear that there are proper ways to overcome this issue, and the ways of doing it (2-part TMB test followed by confirmatory test) either were not done at all by the "crack" forensics goons, or they were done and their negative results were suppressed.
 
There is a 1) in your post but no 2)

If this is directed toward the Natunen v Finland case, there are three apparent deletions you may be referring to:

1) The listing of alleged violations of the Convention. The omission is in the original, the ECtHR only lists, by Article number, those Articles that are alleged to have been violated.

2) Under Merits, I abridged by omitting Section 1, which is the listing of the arguments of the applicant and of the government (Finland). I only included Section 2, the finding of the Court, since they repeat the arguments while dismissing, accepting, or modifying them. I forgot to put in an indication of ellipsis (= .....).

3) For brevity, I did not include Sections II and III.
Section II reads, in part
II. ALLEGED VIOLATION OF ARTICLE 6 § 2 OF THE CONVENTION:
.....
54. The Court observes that, in this case, and subject to its above findings on the applicant’s complaint under Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (b) of the Convention, the District Court convicted the applicant after adversarial proceedings, in which he had the possibility to challenge the evidence produced against him. The applicant’s conviction was upheld by the Court of Appeal after a full review of the case in an oral hearing. Both courts gave reasons for their decisions. Having regard to the facts of the case, and given its subsidiary role regarding the assessment of evidence, the Court cannot conclude that the prosecutor had failed to establish a convincing prima facie case against the applicant. There is no indication that the domestic courts had a preconceived idea of the applicant’s guilt. In these circumstances it cannot be said that the domestic courts had shifted the burden of proof to the defendant (see, a contrario, Telfner v. Austria, cited above, § 18). It follows that this complaint must be rejected as being manifestly ill-founded, pursuant to Article 35 §§ 3 and 4 of the Convention. {End of II. Didn't seem as relevant as I.}

Section III reads in part:
III. APPLICATION OF ARTICLE 41 OF THE CONVENTION
A. Damage

56. The applicant requested, firstly, that the Court declare that the most appropriate form of redress would be, in principle, to order the re-opening of the case. In the event of a finding that the requirements of Article 6 § 1 had not been complied with, the charge against the applicant should be dismissed. Secondly, in respect of non-pecuniary damage, the applicant claimed 3,000 euros (EUR).

57. The Government considered the claim excessive as to quantum. Any award should not exceed EUR 2,500.

58. The Court accepts that the lack of guarantees of Article 6 has caused the applicant non-pecuniary damage, which cannot be made good by the mere finding of a violation. Making its assessment on an equitable basis, it awards him EUR 2,500 in respect of non-pecuniary damage. The Court considers that the award of non-pecuniary damage provides a sufficient redress in this case, having regard, in particular, to the destruction of recordings.
{I viewed this section as not as relevant to the general legal issues, so I left it out.}
.........
{There is a conclusion section that follows, which sums up the Court's findings.}
FOR THESE REASONS, THE COURT UNANIMOUSLY

1. Declares the complaints concerning the lack of equality of arms and the right to adequate facilities for the preparation of the applicant’s defence admissible and the remainder of the application inadmissible;



2. Holds that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention taken together with Article 6 § 3 (b) of the Convention;



3. Holds

(a) that the respondent State is to pay the applicant, within three months from the date on which the judgment becomes final in accordance with Article 44 § 2 of the Convention, the following amounts:

(i) EUR 2,500 (two thousand five hundred euros), plus any tax that may be chargeable, in respect of non-pecuniary damage;

(ii) EUR 3,800 (three thousand eight hundred euros), plus any tax that may be chargeable to the applicant, in respect of costs and expenses;

(b) that from the expiry of the above-mentioned three months until settlement simple interest shall be payable on the above amounts at a rate equal to the marginal lending rate of the European Central Bank during the default period plus three percentage points;



4. Dismisses the remainder of the applicant’s claim for just satisfaction.

Done in English, and notified in writing on 31 March 2009, pursuant to Rule 77 §§ 2 and 3 of the Rules of Court.
{Note that the Court does not explicitly write anything about the non-monetary redress the applicant should receive. Sometimes it does write that there should be a retrial, or makes other comments. However, it relies on the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe to work with the respondent state to redress such issues. The ECtHR is not an appeal court in that sense, and it strives to confine its statements to issues of violations of Convention rights.}
 
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There is a 1) in your post but no 2)

Now I see you may have been responding to Planigale's post.

She has written "1)" for a first paragraph but "Second" for a subsequent one.
______
I would appreciate any comments you might have on the Natunen case.
It seems to me that it is similar to the GEORGIOS PAPAGEORGIOU v. GREECE case, but in that one ECtHR adopts "denial of right to examine witnesses" while in Natunen it adopts "refusal to provide facilities for the defense". Both of course are violations of the Convention. Possibly the difference is based on the specific Convention violations the applicants actually listed as allegations.
 
Now I see you may have been responding to Planigale's post.

She has written "1)" for a first paragraph but "Second" for a subsequent one.
______
I would appreciate any comments you might have on the Natunen case.
It seems to me that it is similar to the GEORGIOS PAPAGEORGIOU v. GREECE case, but in that one ECtHR adopts "denial of right to examine witnesses" while in Natunen it adopts "refusal to provide facilities for the defense". Both of course are violations of the Convention. Possibly the difference is based on the specific Convention violations the applicants actually listed as allegations.

Yes, it was Planigale I was responding to. I looked at your post on the Finnish case. Very encouraging. Non-disclosure is a huge area (one of many) in which to launch attacks on the Italian process.
 
false positives with luminol

Good morning everyone,

Lt. Robin Bratton of the Michigan State Police compared Hemaglow, a commercial preparation based on luminol to ordinary luminol testing. Fast Orange, Babo Cleanser, Drano, "The Works," and 'Fantastic" gave positives with luminol, although Babo, Fast Orange, "The Works," and "Fantastic" are listed as weakly positive. Many vegetations, such as dandelions, spruce, etc., are weakly positive. Lt. Bratton wrote, "All luminol solutions can and do produce numerous false positive reactions. Opinions stating that a stain was blood because when he was sprayed with a luminol solution produced luminescence should be avoided!"
EDT
There seem to be two varieties of Bab-O cleanser, and one is with bleach. Although it is difficult to find the correct MSDS, I believe that this link is right, and the "bleach" is potassium dichloroisocyanurate, very similar to the bleaching agent in Comet cleanser. Both produce hypochlorite.

I am not aware of any evidence that TMB gives false positives with Drano or with any product that produces hypochlorite (which basically is bleach). Therefore, Machiavelli's claim that such compounds do not exist is on shaky ground.
 
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...
P.S - surely it is known by someone here which TMB test was used?!


Why would you supose that?

What we know about the TMB testing comes from the trial transcripts. We know the details of the kits and equipment used in other tests because this was part of Stefanoni's testimony. But Stefanoni didn't testify how she did the TMB testing. She withheld the information that there was such a test. It only leaked out when the defense complained that they had not reeceived complete disclosure as to the dates of testing and the judge ordered the release of additional documentation. Those documents included the SAL cards and some of the SAL cards included the results of the TMB tests.


It is my recollection that at least one of the TMB results reported on the SAL cards was "inconclusive". This is a code that only applies to the two part test indicating that a reaction occured in the first part. Someone with access to the cards may want to flip through them and see if I am remembering correctly.
 

If at least one of them had claimed that they were watching Naruto (or anything else for that matter) after nine ...

But they don't remember. Curiously they remember watching Amélie and miraculously evidence of it was indeed found on the computer. But it was out of the time window of interest.

Look, Raffaele is a master of computer science, he has the clone copy of the hard disk, he has plenty of time, and still he does not even make the slightest attempt to find anything on his own computer that might exonerate him.

For me, there is only one reason for this: he knows full well that no such thing exists.
(As he had said to his father in the bugged conversation.)
 
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If at least one of them had claimed that they were watching Naruto (or anything else for that matter) after nine ...

But they don't remember. Curiously they remember watching Amélie and miraculously evidence of it was indeed found on the computer. But it was out of the time window of interest.

Look, Raffaele is a master of computer science, he has the clone copy of the hard disk, he has plenty of time, and still he does not even make the slightest attempt to find anything on his own computer that might exonerate him.

For me, there is only one reason for this: he knows full well that no such thing exists.
(As he had said to his father in the bugged conversation.)


The Milani Report

Expert Report on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer by Professor Alfredo MILANI

in collaboration with Doctor Antonio d’Ambrosio, Doctor Engineer Andrea Chiancone, Doctor Paolo Bernardi, Doctor Emanuele Florindi, Doctor Marina Latini and Doctor Engineer Valentino Santucci.

University of Perugia

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/computer-fraud-alibi/
 
TMB

Why would you supose that?

What we know about the TMB testing comes from the trial transcripts. We know the details of the kits and equipment used in other tests because this was part of Stefanoni's testimony. But Stefanoni didn't testify how she did the TMB testing. She withheld the information that there was such a test. It only leaked out when the defense complained that they had not reeceived complete disclosure as to the dates of testing and the judge ordered the release of additional documentation. Those documents included the SAL cards and some of the SAL cards included the results of the TMB tests.


It is my recollection that at least one of the TMB results reported on the SAL cards was "inconclusive". This is a code that only applies to the two part test indicating that a reaction occured in the first part. Someone with access to the cards may want to flip through them and see if I am remembering correctly.

Thank you Dan

I think I had always thought it was the one part test - someone some time ago had mentioned combur strips somewhere....clearly I have made the basic mistake of filling in a gap in my knowledge with something other than knowledge.

So - it seems it could have been the two part test - would be very interesting to find out.

Thankyou again.
 
If at least one of them had claimed that they were watching Naruto (or anything else for that matter) after nine ...

But they don't remember. Curiously they remember watching Amélie and miraculously evidence of it was indeed found on the computer. But it was out of the time window of interest.

Look, Raffaele is a master of computer science, he has the clone copy of the hard disk, he has plenty of time, and still he does not even make the slightest attempt to find anything on his own computer that might exonerate him.

For me, there is only one reason for this: he knows full well that no such thing exists.
(As he had said to his father in the bugged conversation.)

None of this has anything to do with the implications of what was found by this forensic analysis.

How many times does one need independent demonstrations of their innocence?

My bet is that someone is going to link these computer analysts to the Masons.
 
Thank you Dan

I think I had always thought it was the one part test - someone some time ago had mentioned combur strips somewhere....clearly I have made the basic mistake of filling in a gap in my knowledge with something other than knowledge.

So - it seems it could have been the two part test - would be very interesting to find out.

Thankyou again.

If Stefanoni had at all thought that the luminol footprints attributed to Knox were blood, she would have used confirmatory testing - such as antibody-antigen cards - to test each one. That she had left the impression that the luminol positive footprints were tested only by luminol, until there was a forced disclosure of the use of TMB, which she admitted in court testimony showed that the prints were not made in blood, is telling.

I do not believe that Stefanoni is incompetent in the sense that she is unaware of the existence of relatively inexpensive and convenient confirmatory blood tests. I believe she is someone dedicated to an agenda of assisting the prosecution convict, using whatever means possible, as long as there is essentially no risk of the detection of fraud. Thus her methods include but may not be limited to suppression of data, failure to complete multipart tests when she becomes aware that the results will be exculpatory, reliance on hiding retests from the defense, and assuring that contamination can be present when needed to bolster the prosecution case.
 
If at least one of them had claimed that they were watching Naruto (or anything else for that matter) after nine ...

But they don't remember. Curiously they remember watching Amélie and miraculously evidence of it was indeed found on the computer. But it was out of the time window of interest.

Look, Raffaele is a master of computer science, he has the clone copy of the hard disk, he has plenty of time, and still he does not even make the slightest attempt to find anything on his own computer that might exonerate him.

For me, there is only one reason for this: he knows full well that no such thing exists.
(As he had said to his father in the bugged conversation.)

This is not very bright. If they set Naruto to play at 9.26 and then ran right out to commit murder/hang out with Toto you would expect them to have very clearly remembered doing so and having their stories off pat. It points to innocence that they couldn't remember.
 
If at least one of them had claimed that they were watching Naruto (or anything else for that matter) after nine ...

But they don't remember. Curiously they remember watching Amélie and miraculously evidence of it was indeed found on the computer. But it was out of the time window of interest.

Look, Raffaele is a master of computer science, he has the clone copy of the hard disk, he has plenty of time, and still he does not even make the slightest attempt to find anything on his own computer that might exonerate him.

For me, there is only one reason for this: he knows full well that no such thing exists.
(As he had said to his father in the bugged conversation.)

This is not very bright. If they set Naruto to play at 9.26 and then ran right out to commit murder/hang out with Toto you would expect them to have very clearly remembered doing so and having their stories off pat. It points to innocence that they couldn't remember.

People always want to treat human memory like a tape recorder while it is more like a bunch of kids playing telephone.
 
This is not very bright. If they set Naruto to play at 9.26 and then ran right out to commit murder/hang out with Toto you would expect them to have very clearly remembered doing so and having their stories off pat. It points to innocence that they couldn't remember.

People always want to treat human memory like a tape recorder while it is more like a bunch of kids playing telephone.

It isn't unusual for people to forget small but important details when they are placed under stress.
 
Testing

If Stefanoni had at all thought that the luminol footprints attributed to Knox were blood, she would have used confirmatory testing - such as antibody-antigen cards - to test each one. That she had left the impression that the luminol positive footprints were tested only by luminol, until there was a forced disclosure of the use of TMB, which she admitted in court testimony showed that the prints were not made in blood, is telling.

I do not believe that Stefanoni is incompetent in the sense that she is unaware of the existence of relatively inexpensive and convenient confirmatory blood tests. I believe she is someone dedicated to an agenda of assisting the prosecution convict, using whatever means possible, as long as there is essentially no risk of the detection of fraud. Thus her methods include but may not be limited to suppression of data, failure to complete multipart tests when she becomes aware that the results will be exculpatory, reliance on hiding retests from the defense, and assuring that contamination can be present when needed to bolster the prosecution case.

Yes I think you are correct. I suspect all the testing was done in fact, whatever the available records state - the confirmation for blood, the semen, the downstairs stuff. It's reasonable speculation because Stefanoni's prepared to hide that which assists the defence. So test everything and admit only that which helps you. The doubt that's then created, which should be for the benefit of the defence, goes instead to the prosecution. Machiavelli account goes even further than that. He says even a confirmatory test for blood can only prove it's there; it can't prove it's not - and that's circumstantial evidence for guilt - mad, mad world.
 
None of this has anything to do with the implications of what was found by this forensic analysis.

How many times does one need independent demonstrations of their innocence?

My bet is that someone is going to link these computer analysts to the Masons.

Yes, this is true. In fact all of Raf's data already exists in cloned form in the masonic database cloud network, located at five secret sacred server locations throughout the planet. Unfortunately, providing this back-up information in support of of Raf's defense, would expose the existence of this secret masonic network facility, and that is why the masons must rely on "other (esoteric) means" to free the junior lodge member in training from the Vatican's agents in the Italian judiciary.
 
If Stefanoni had at all thought that the luminol footprints attributed to Knox were blood, she would have used confirmatory testing - such as antibody-antigen cards - to test each one. That she had left the impression that the luminol positive footprints were tested only by luminol, until there was a forced disclosure of the use of TMB, which she admitted in court testimony showed that the prints were not made in blood, is telling.

I do not believe that Stefanoni is incompetent in the sense that she is unaware of the existence of relatively inexpensive and convenient confirmatory blood tests. I believe she is someone dedicated to an agenda of assisting the prosecution convict, using whatever means possible, as long as there is essentially no risk of the detection of fraud. Thus her methods include but may not be limited to suppression of data, failure to complete multipart tests when she becomes aware that the results will be exculpatory, reliance on hiding retests from the defense, and assuring that contamination can be present when needed to bolster the prosecution case.

Pretty much agree. Test everything, present only items that can be presented in an incriminating or ambiguous manner (i.e. compatible with guilt), and hide everything else. Then deny, deny, deny, and if all else fails, blame others. This procedure is actually in Steph's lab manual.
 
The Milani Report

Expert Report on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer by Professor Alfredo MILANI

in collaboration with Doctor Antonio d’Ambrosio, Doctor Engineer Andrea Chiancone, Doctor Paolo Bernardi, Doctor Emanuele Florindi, Doctor Marina Latini and Doctor Engineer Valentino Santucci.

University of Perugia

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/computer-fraud-alibi/

Thank you, it is the first time I see this whole report (if it is the whole report).
So far only some newspaper excerpts were available for me.

But it is weaker than I thought.

Simply there is no proof in it that Naruto was actually started.
Only an "ultima apertura" metadata time stamp. Which is a simple last access, not necessarily made by a video player. Could have been simply a P2P download access.
No surprise it does not appear on the VLC recently viewed file list where it naturally should appear if it had been played by VLC. OK, it could have been played by another player, but which one is it? What is on the recently watched file list of that player?

This expert report is a double edged weapon, anyway.
If we accept that the Amélie on the recent file list is the one that was played on the evening of the murder, then it also proves that they did not watch anything on VLC except the five copies of Stardust and it could be anytime after Amélie, not necessarily that evening. And they seem to be, as Massei wrote, just looking into several downloaded copies rather than actually watching the full movies.


As for the keyboard activity it is ridiculous to believe that they were busy to press the keyboard every few minutes to keep it active.
From the early morning data we see that the keyboard gets inactive as quickly as 4 minutes.

Were not they leisurely eating the dinner late at night with Raffaele's hands bloody of the fish? :-)
Or were they having all night sex while regularly pressing the keys?

There was a reason that Hellman skipped this report.
 
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