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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Umbria

And Perugia, in Umbria, the place where the pigment umber originated, has soil full of iron oxide and manganese oxide, ideal for setting off the luminol CL.

You are quite right. The authors of this paper will be fully aware of this too - given that the lead author and two others work for the Carabinieri - and worked on the Kercher case last year.
 
An article on the Italian courts and their reaction to the Convention on Human Rights:

http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1598&context=lawreview

Brancaccio, Hon. Antonio* (2012) "The Protection of Human Rights in the Decisions of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation," St. John's Law Review: Vol. 70: Iss. 1, Article 9.

*Former Chief Justice, Supreme Court of Cassation of Italy

It should perhaps be mentioned that the decisions of the
Italian Court of Cassation' are not binding as precedent when
the question decided comes before other courts or is brought up
again before the Court itself.2 The authority of such decisions,
however, is such that it will undoubtedly have a guiding effect on
future decisions.3 This is a sufficient justification for limiting my
remarks to these decisions.
.....
As far as the Convention is concerned, the Court of Cassation
has been criticized for not addressing this question until
many years after the implementing legislation. Two reasons
have been articulated to account for this delay. First, it is due to
the slight and superficial knowledge of the Convention possessed
by lawyers and judges. Lawyers either did not invoke the application
of the Convention, or they sought to invoke the principles
of the Convention in such a vague manner that judges were hesitant
to apply them.

The second reason is the widely-held belief that Italian domestic
sources, the Italian Constitution and ordinary laws, substantially
exhaust the protection of human rights covered by the
Convention. This apprehension of domestic law preemption by
international laws is not unique to Italian jurisprudence. A
similar delay can be seen in the behavior of judges in other countries.
In France, for example, the Convention only began to be
applied in the second half of the 1970's. The question of the direct
application of the Covenant does not have the same history
as the Convention. Thus, what will be said about the latter is
equally valid for the former.
......
 
An article on the Italian courts and their reaction to the Convention on Human Rights:

http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1598&context=lawreview

Brancaccio, Hon. Antonio* (2012) "The Protection of Human Rights in the Decisions of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation," St. John's Law Review: Vol. 70: Iss. 1, Article 9.

*Former Chief Justice, Supreme Court of Cassation of Italy

It should perhaps be mentioned that the decisions of the
Italian Court of Cassation' are not binding as precedent when
the question decided comes before other courts or is brought up
again before the Court itself.2 The authority of such decisions,
however, is such that it will undoubtedly have a guiding effect on
future decisions.3 This is a sufficient justification for limiting my
remarks to these decisions.
.....
As far as the Convention is concerned, the Court of Cassation
has been criticized for not addressing this question until
many years after the implementing legislation. Two reasons
have been articulated to account for this delay. First, it is due to
the slight and superficial knowledge of the Convention possessed
by lawyers and judges. Lawyers either did not invoke the application
of the Convention, or they sought to invoke the principles
of the Convention in such a vague manner that judges were hesitant
to apply them.

The second reason is the widely-held belief that Italian domestic
sources, the Italian Constitution and ordinary laws, substantially
exhaust the protection of human rights covered by the
Convention. This apprehension of domestic law preemption by
international laws is not unique to Italian jurisprudence. A
similar delay can be seen in the behavior of judges in other countries.
In France, for example, the Convention only began to be
applied in the second half of the 1970's. The question of the direct
application of the Covenant does not have the same history
as the Convention. Thus, what will be said about the latter is
equally valid for the former.
......

"the slight and superficial knowledge of the Convention possessed by lawyers and judges" What a damning indictment of the whole rotten edifice!
 
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Machiavelli,

All you did was prove that lemon juice interferes with the TMB test. We cited those studies and many others, which proved that your interpretation was hogwash. Luminol reacts to bleach, Draino, and probably Comet cleanser (which produces bleach when water is added) and other cleaning agents. We also cited evidence that HemaTrace is both more sensitive than luminol is and will not react to false positives the way that luminol does. Your claims are no better than feckless.

The papers I cited determined that luminol is more sensitive and more specific than TMB.

Whatever you cite or claim, you can't do anything against these studies. These are findings that are not going to disappear.

As for the last study involving lemon juice, you perfectly know that you cannot limit even the validity of that one to lemon juice.

As for HemaTrace: 1) it is not a scientific study, and 2) there is no implication, it is irrelevant as long as it is not proven that's a HemaTrace test was ever performed; beyond this, it is still impossible to find a plausible alternative which is the only determinant element; bleaches that you cite above are obviously not plausible.
 
HemaTrace redux

What they say is that it is possible, not that it is "safe"; it does not contradict any scientific knowledge. You can safely predict that if latent stains are highly diluted (which is somehow in the nature of latent stains) blood won't be detected by other tests.
Machiavelli,

HemaTrace has an even lower limit of detection than luminol does, and it won't react to metal ions. It is antibody-based. There is no excuse not to use it.
 
As we know the Machiavelli account has claimed three scientists, Webb, Tobe and Barni from their published research can be cited in support of the conclusion that luminol reactions at the cottage are reliable proof of blood.

Here is an extract from:

"Forensic application of the luminol reaction as a presumptive test for latent blood detection" (Barni and others 2007)


"The most problematic chemicals for a correct interpretation of luminol test results are those which provoke intensification or a

Still waiting for the Machiavelli account to supply some relevant, contextual citation from either, Webb, Tobe or Barni indicating that luminol positive/TMB negative results can be relied on as proof of blood.

Your demand is unjustified and wrong. You don't need to have a chemical proof of blood, in order to have evidence of blood.
Try to absorb the concept of circumstantial evidence, and quit asking for undue conditions.
 
Hematrace in the literature

The papers I cited determined that luminol is more sensitive and more specific than TMB.

Whatever you cite or claim, you can't do anything against these studies. These are findings that are not going to disappear.

As for the last study involving lemon juice, you perfectly know that you cannot limit even the validity of that one to lemon juice.

As for HemaTrace: 1) it is not a scientific study, and 2) there is no implication, it is irrelevant as long as it is not proven that's a HemaTrace test was ever performed; beyond this, it is still impossible to find a plausible alternative which is the only determinant element; bleaches that you cite above are obviously not plausible.
Machiavelli,

Wow, just wow. You just keep repeating the same words, as if they have not been refuted time and again. One, there is no reason to believe that the active ingredient in Comet cleanser deteriorates with time, as bleach does. Two, HemaTrace has been discussed in the forensic literature (for example, J Forensic Sci. 2014 Nov 18. doi: 10.1111/1556-4029.12663.). Moreover, the PG commenters here have been trying to argue that a crime scene is not the same as a scientific study; therefore, your line of attack would seem to be in contradiction to that line of thought. Three, I cited a study which gave a lower limit of TMB as 1 part in one million and luminol as one part in 5 million. Therefore, your claim is essentially that all of the stains fell into a narrow window between 1 and 5 million. What are the odds of that? And if that were the case, the luminol should have been barely visible, inasmuch as it is known that luminol give less chemiluminescence at higher dilutions.
 
Citation

Your demand is unjustified and wrong. You don't need to have a chemical proof of blood, in order to have evidence of blood.
Try to absorb the concept of circumstantial evidence, and quit asking for undue conditions.

I get that you don't feel a need to assert proof of blood.
I get that Stefanoni saying "it's not blood" doesn't bother you.
I get that you still think it's reasonable to conclude there was blood.

It's just not clear why.

But, Webb, Tobe and Barni help your argument how? Give me some citation that you believe is helpful to your case. What are they saying differently from the other scientists on this subject do you think?
 
An article on the Italian courts and their reaction to the Convention on Human Rights:

http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1598&context=lawreview

Brancaccio, Hon. Antonio* (2012) "The Protection of Human Rights in the Decisions of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation," St. John's Law Review: Vol. 70: Iss. 1, Article 9.

*Former Chief Justice, Supreme Court of Cassation of Italy

It should perhaps be mentioned that the decisions of the
Italian Court of Cassation' are not binding as precedent when
the question decided comes before other courts or is brought up
again before the Court itself.2 The authority of such decisions,
however, is such that it will undoubtedly have a guiding effect on
future decisions.3 This is a sufficient justification for limiting my
remarks to these decisions.
.....
As far as the Convention is concerned, the Court of Cassation
has been criticized for not addressing this question until
many years after the implementing legislation. Two reasons
have been articulated to account for this delay. First, it is due to
the slight and superficial knowledge of the Convention possessed
by lawyers and judges. Lawyers either did not invoke the application
of the Convention, or they sought to invoke the principles
of the Convention in such a vague manner that judges were hesitant
to apply them.

The second reason is the widely-held belief that Italian domestic
sources, the Italian Constitution and ordinary laws, substantially
exhaust the protection of human rights covered by the
Convention. This apprehension of domestic law preemption by
international laws is not unique to Italian jurisprudence. A
similar delay can be seen in the behavior of judges in other countries.
In France, for example, the Convention only began to be
applied in the second half of the 1970's. The question of the direct
application of the Covenant does not have the same history
as the Convention. Thus, what will be said about the latter is
equally valid for the former.
......

"the slight and superficial knowledge of the Convention possessed by lawyers and judges" What a damning indictment of the whole rotten edifice!

The article is historical. The "slight and superficial knowledge" may or may not continue to the current era. Certain judges may be more familiar with the ECHR than others.

Some additional quotes from the article:

The question of the application of the Convention and the
Covenant has been dealt with primarily in decisions concerning
criminal cases. Therefore, it is on these cases that I will concentrate.
The Court's first reaction after becoming aware of the existence
of this question was to deny the direct effect of the Convention
within our legal system. Thus, the decisions of the Court
of Cassation affirmed that the provisions of the Convention bind
states only in their relationships with other states and do not affect
a state's relationship with individuals. These provisions
were held to be of a programmatic nature and therefore could not
modify domestic law."

This theory was justified using two arguments. First, it was
assumed that the Convention anticipates an exhaustive system
of protection for a violation of human rights through recourse to
two international bodies-the Commission 2 and the European
Court of Human Rights. 3 These fully enforceable rights cannot
directly benefit the individual before the courts of his own country
due to the particular conditions of this system.

Secondly, reference was made to Article 57 of the Convention,
which obliges every high contracting party, at the request of
the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, to explain how
its internal law ensures the effective implementation of all the
provisions contained in the Convention." It was also assumed
that Article 57 excluded a provision stating that the protections
promulgated at the Convention were a direct part of domestic
law.

The opposite view was taken by the trial judges and certain
administrative judges who affirmed the norms of the Convention
not only as domestic law, but also as constitutional law. This
approach, however, was consistently rejected by the Court of
Cassation's decisions and by the Constitutional Court. 5 This
view will therefore not be further addressed but mention was
made of it to provide a brief glimpse into the extent of this debate.

At the beginning of the 1980's, after a rather extended period
of resistance to new ideas, some of the Court of Cassation's
decisions acknowledged that the norms of the Convention were
immediately and directly applicable to domestic cases. The exception
is those provisions whose contents are considered so
vague in their terms as to not indicate sufficiently clear situations.

Since other decisions continued to uphold the previous and
opposing view, a conflict came about which required the intervention
of the United Criminal Divisions of the Court (Sezioni
Unite Penali). This is the extended panel of the supreme court
which adjudicates the most important cases, or cases in which
there have been contrasting precedents of the individual divisions
of the court. 6 In 1988, the United Divisions passed judgment
on the appeal of Paolo Castro, accepting the immediate
applicability of the norms of the Convention in Italy.

In this respect, the court made three observations. First, it
observed that from a reading of Articles 1 and 13 of the Convention"
8 it is apparent that the high contracting parties must secure
a direct recognition of the rights and freedoms defined in the
Convention itself. Therefore, it is responsible for more than only
to "undertake to respect" these rights and freedoms, as was
stated in the first version of the draft Convention.19 Second, protection
at the international level does not exclude protection by
national judges, but serves to reinforce this protection by controlling
the way in which national judicial authorities ensure respect
for these rights. The opposing argument, drawn from the
protections afforded through recourse to the Commission of Human
Rights, has no foundation.2" Third, the domestic applicability
of the Convention flows from the principle that Italian law is
to be adapted to international treaty law. The writers agree that,
where the international legal instrument contains a model legal
procedure or action, complete in all the essential elements and
which may be directly adopted by the domestic system, the internal
implementation of the international model is automatic.
When the international instrument does not contain such a
model, however, it cannot be self-executing. To become effective,
the domestic legal implications imposed by the instrument require
state legislative action.

The Constitutional Court has agreed with the approach
taken by the United Divisions of the Court of Cassation.22 Subsequent
decisions in both criminal and civil matters have uniformly
proceeded in this same direction.
 
Luminol/hematrace

Machiavelli,

Wow, just wow. You just keep repeating the same words, as if they have not been refuted time and again. One, there is no reason to believe that the active ingredient in Comet cleanser deteriorates with time, as bleach does. Two, HemaTrace has been discussed in the forensic literature (for example, J Forensic Sci. 2014 Nov 18. doi: 10.1111/1556-4029.12663.). Moreover, the PG commenters here have been trying to argue that a crime scene is not the same as a scientific study; therefore, your line of attack would seem to be in contradiction to that line of thought. Three, I cited a study which gave a lower limit of TMB as 1 part in one million and luminol as one part in 5 million. Therefore, your claim is essentially that all of the stains fell into a narrow window between 1 and 5 million. What are the odds of that? And if that were the case, the luminol should have been barely visible, inasmuch as it is known that luminol give less chemiluminescence at higher dilutions.

On the question of chemiluminescence, Filippo Barni and Andrea Berti, the Caribinieri scientists also argue that because of the interfering effects from plant peroxidases, "the luminol test can produce false positive indications often showing undetectable differences in light emission characteristics from that seen with blood"
 
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Machiavelli,

Wow, just wow. You just keep repeating the same words, as if they have not been refuted time and again. One, there is no reason to believe that the active ingredient in Comet cleanser deteriorates with time, as bleach does. Two, HemaTrace has been discussed in the forensic literature (for example, J Forensic Sci. 2014 Nov 18. doi: 10.1111/1556-4029.12663.). Moreover, the PG commenters here have been trying to argue that a crime scene is not the same as a scientific study; therefore, your line of attack would seem to be in contradiction to that line of thought. Three, I cited a study which gave a lower limit of TMB as 1 part in one million and luminol as one part in 5 million. Therefore, your claim is essentially that all of the stains fell into a narrow window between 1 and 5 million. What are the odds of that? And if that were the case, the luminol should have been barely visible, inasmuch as it is known that luminol give less chemiluminescence at higher dilutions.

What you, a mere 'professor' of 'biochemistry' are missing is that when the science gets too difficult Mach can always fall back on the circumstantial case. AKA all the other evidence. 10,000 *********** pages, Halkides, plus another 350 of Nencini ramblings. So suck on that, loser.
 
Your demand is unjustified and wrong. You don't need to have a chemical proof of blood, in order to have evidence of blood.
Try to absorb the concept of circumstantial evidence, and quit asking for undue conditions.

It appears that 'approximate evidence' can be incorporated into an analysis supporting a judicial finding of guilt.

Absolute or certain proof is an unreasonable, and strictly speaking, non-judicially necessary request, nor is it a barrier to finding guilt, or even approximate guilt.

The benefit of scientific analysis can be valuable, but must also be seen as having approximate value, which cannot be said to restrain the findings of a judge in a case, lest there appear to be a conflict between the interests of justice, the interests of approximate justice, and/or the necessity of holding the guilty parties responsible for their crimes, or their approximate crimes.

Certainly if a defendant were guilty, they would not be charged with a crime in the first place. Therefore simply sitting at the defense table, one is already clearly of approximate guilt, even if one was not within the proximity of the actual crime.

And calling Ms Nadeau an "approximate reporter", is not necessarily not a compliment, as it can be used as circumstantial evidence that she is indeed a fine one.

Mach is starting to make sense to me. I think I'm getting it.
 
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Yogi Berra

Reminded me of M.'s posts here.
 
It appears that 'approximate evidence' can be incorporated into an analysis supporting a judicial finding of guilt.

Absolute or certain proof is an unreasonable, and strictly speaking, non-judicially necessary request, nor is it a barrier to finding guilt, or even approximate guilt.

The benefit of scientific analysis can be valuable, but must also be seen as having approximate value, which cannot be said to restrain the findings of a judge in a case, lest there appear to be a conflict between the interests of justice, the interests of approximate justice, and/or the necessity of holding the guilty parties responsible for their crimes, or their approximate crimes.

Certainly if a defendant were guilty, they would not be charged with a crime in the first place. Therefore simply sitting at the defense table, one is already clearly of approximate guilt, even if one was not within the proximity of the actual crime.

And calling Ms Nadeau an "approximate reporter", is not necessarily not a compliment, as it can be used as circumstantial evidence that she is indeed a fine one.

Mach is starting to make sense to me. I think I'm getting it.

M.'s posts might pass a presumptive test, but not a confirmatory one.
 
The thing is, if luminol is indeed more specific than TMB, then there would be no purpose, and I mean none at all, for any forensic investigation to ever use TMB. And yet all of them do, and every single standard forensic procedure recommends following luminol with a more specific test like TMB.

Is Machiavelli lying, since he lies about everything, in order to spread his disinformation? Or did he just prove every forensic organization in the world wrong in one fell swoop? Machiavelli, where did you go buddy?
 
Tobe et al

I have posted extracts of papers by Webb et al and Barni et al, two of the three sources the Machiavelli account claims is supportive of his position on the luminol positive/TMB negative samples in the Kercher case - that the samples are blood. Here is an abstract of the paper, which is the final source he calls on for support, by Tobe et al. Yet there is nothing to support the position he takes:

"Evaluation of six presumptive tests for blood, their specificity, sensitivity, and effect on high molecular-weight DNA.

Authors
Tobe SS Watson N, Daéid NN.
Author information
Journal
J Forensic Sci. 2007 Jan;52(1):102-9.


Abstract

Luminol, leuchomalachite green, phenolphthalein, Hemastix, Hemident, and Bluestar are all used as presumptive tests for blood. In this study, the tests were subjected to dilute blood (from 1:10,000 to 1:10,000,000), many common household substance, and chemicals. Samples were tested for DNA to determine whether the presumptive tests damaged or destroyed DNA. The DNA loci tested were D2S1338 and D19S433. Leuchomalachite green had a sensitivity of 1:10,000, while the remaining tests were able to detect blood to a dilution of 1:100,000. Substances tested include saliva, semen, potato, tomato, tomato sauce, tomato sauce with meat, red onion, red kidney bean, horseradish, 0.1 M ascorbic acid, 5% bleach, 10% cupric sulfate, 10% ferric sulfate, and 10% nickel chloride. Of all the substances tested, not one of the household items reacted with every test; however, the chemicals did. DNA was recovered and amplified from luminol, phenolphthalein, Hemastix, and Bluestar, but not from leuchomalachite green or Hemident."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17209919/

Perhaps there is something in the main body of the work that the Machiavelli account will refer to for support.....or perhaps not.

It looks like he's already fallen back on the judge's intuition as a justification for a finding of blood.
 
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Originally Posted by Machiavelli:

Your demand is unjustified and wrong. You don't need to have a chemical proof of blood, in order to have evidence of blood.
Try to absorb the concept of circumstantial evidence, and quit asking for undue conditions.

-------------------------------------------

Anyone (including Italian judges) arguing the efficacy of the knife DNA, the bra-clasp DNA, and the hallway footprints being tracked in blood has an agenda other than justice being served . . .
 
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