Dan O.
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,594
But I'm troubled by the 'whore' angle slurs that have come up.
You are right. The honest professionals don't deserve the denigration of having Stefanoni compared to them.
But I'm troubled by the 'whore' angle slurs that have come up.
You are right. The honest professionals don't deserve the denigration of having Stefanoni compared to them.
I would have to accept this except it doesn't explain the remark about the bad relationship with the father. That statement can only be an attempt to make the abuse of office appear to be for a good reason, thereby excusing the breaking of the law.
]cannot be so, on many points. If you saw it as comparable with both guilt and innocence, it would then be of no importance whatsoever, yet it is continuously mentioned. It is never brought up by the pro-innocence people, only by the pro-guilt people as a character flaw of some sort. Just like you state a manipulative personality can be present in both innocent and guilty people, then it cannot be solely indicative of guilt. It must be a non-issue and people must stop attempting to use it as an element of guilt because it is not (and I am not agreeing with Knox having a manipulative personality).
]None of it has any bearing on whether or not she met Rudy once or six times.
What I am saying is you --you Machiavelli -- view every minute detail of Knox and Sollecito through guilt-colored glasses and everything everyone else does through virtuous glasses, the exact same thing innocenters are accused of doing in reverse.
Knox sounds pretty vile.
As her "best friend" lay dead after having her throat slashed only hours before... the friends of Meredith describe Knox's gleeful, sexually charged behavior at the police station:
Robin Butterworth testifying in court:
"I found Amanda's behavior very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her."
"Knox and Sollecito fooled around as they waited".
"I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele," Butterworth said in English, her testimony translated for the court. "They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.""
Amy Frost, another witness who was also at the police station, said Knox "made faces," such as crossing her eyes and sticking her tongue out. She was "giggling" and kissing Sollecito, said Frost.
There is another logical error in this. If something is comparable with innocence but also with guilt, it is worth point it out if the advocates attempt to build arguments that tend to deny the compatibility with guilt.
It is important to point out that it is false that Knox and Guede were virtual strangers; it is false that they had no relation to each other whatsoever; it is false that the drug dealers environment of Perugia and the Piazza Grimana folks, and Amanda Knox, belonged to different companies; it is false that Knox had no relations with strange parties that went out of controls or with harassing behaviors against flatmates.
It is also obvious that she was manipulative, if you just read the incipit and para-textual info in his mail to her friends for example or her account about how she manipulated her uncle's feelings; or even if you read her book or if you read her testimonies (how quick she is accusing Filomena of buying drugs, how she downplays some details and is vague on others, etc.).
The argumentation in a courtroom simply works like that. It is not true that I am biased or twisting information.
Indeed the information about Knox's personality and frequentations has a bearing if you want to make an argument that she and Guede were virtual strangers: they had been knowing each other for much longer than she knew Sollecito, it was known that Guede was attracted by Knox, whereas Knox wrote she was attracted by a "black young man" she had met for the first time in September in a bar in via Garibaldi, a man of whom she did not reveal the name; it is a fact that she was talking "very naturally" with Guede on nights where they were guests at the downstairs apartment, and it is a fact that Knox had picked up guests from the downstairs apartment and brought them up to her home; it is a fact that she had contacts with drug dealers from the same environment. And finally, I don't even disregard Kokomani's testimony, despite it is obvious that he was lying in order to cover up his drug dealing activity.
Machiavelli said:There is another logical error in this. If something is comparable with innocence but also with guilt, it is worth point it out if the advocates attempt to build arguments that tend to deny the compatibility with guilt.
It is important to point out that it is false that Knox and Guede were virtual strangers; it is false that they had no relation to each other whatsoever; it is false that the drug dealers environment of Perugia and the Piazza Grimana folks, and Amanda Knox, belonged to different companies; it is false that Knox had no relations with strange parties that went out of controls or with harassing behaviors against flatmates.
It is also obvious that she was manipulative, if you just read the incipit and para-textual info in his mail to her friends for example or her account about how she manipulated her uncle's feelings; or even if you read her book or if you read her testimonies (how quick she is accusing Filomena of buying drugs, how she downplays some details and is vague on others, etc.).
The argumentation in a courtroom simply works like that. It is not true that I am biased or twisting information.
Indeed the information about Knox's personality and frequentations has a bearing if you want to make an argument that she and Guede were virtual strangers: they had been knowing each other for much longer than she knew Sollecito, it was known that Guede was attracted by Knox, whereas Knox wrote she was attracted by a "black young man" she had met for the first time in September in a bar in via Garibaldi, a man of whom she did not reveal the name; it is a fact that she was talking "very naturally" with Guede on nights where they were guests at the downstairs apartment, and it is a fact that Knox had picked up guests from the downstairs apartment and brought them up to her home; it is a fact that she had contacts with drug dealers from the same environment. And finally, I don't even disregard Kokomani's testimony, despite it is obvious that he was lying in order to cover up his drug dealing activity.
What are the fact?? Where are the facts?? Not what you infer obliquely from some other information. Please list in simple point form the objective factual evidence for:
1) the specific and precise occasions when Ms Knox had contact by phone or otherwise with drug dealers.
2) the specific and precise occasions when Ms Knox had any contact with Rudy Guede.
3) "harassing behaviours" of Ms Knox
4) Ms Knox talking "very naturally" with Guede on "nights" - (plural) - at the downstairs apartment
5) Ms Knox's involvement with "strange parties" - (plural) - "that went out of controls"
Separately, why is it of any concern to you whatsoever that Ms Knox had any kind of a relationship with any guest of the residents of the downstairs apartment (other than Guede). What possible connection does this have to the murder of Ms Kercher?
Knox sounds pretty vile.
As her "best friend" lay dead after having her throat slashed only hours before... the friends of Meredith describe Knox's gleeful, sexually charged behavior at the police station:
Robin Butterworth testifying in court:
"I found Amanda's behavior very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her."
"Knox and Sollecito fooled around as they waited".
"I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele," Butterworth said in English, her testimony translated for the court. "They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.""
Amy Frost, another witness who was also at the police station, said Knox "made faces," such as crossing her eyes and sticking her tongue out. She was "giggling" and kissing Sollecito, said Frost.
There is no "independent evidence" that Ms Knox is a manipulative character and, you cite nothing. Similarly, there is no evidence that she was anything other than a virtual stranger to Guede, with two or three instances of her finding herself in his company, randomly and not by design. There are no telephone contacts - you could believe Kokomani of course, but that wouldn't be very bright.
Furthermore you can provide no evidence in the form of actual documentation proving that Ms Knox had any contact whatsoever with any drug dealers and repeat no more than tittle tattle and rumour.
Additionally, you have cast aspersions with no evidence that Ms Knox's scholastic record was not excellent and that the circumstances of her attendance at her course in Perugia were of an unplanned and hurried nature.
Here you are scrabbling around on the margins, looking for something, anything, to impugn Ms Knox's character, because you have no hard evidence at all of her involvement in Ms Kercher's murder, despite your attempts to re-write scientific method and contradict the entire scientific community. Your evidence lite approach to this case is predicated on your guilt filtering the smallest piece of irrelevance. Perhaps you are, after all, representative of the post inquisitional, post facistic nature of Italian society - a debt ridden failed state oiled by corruption and riddled by the rot of a superannuated, medieval judiciary, which has proven itself incapable of adjudicating criminal cases according to Italy's own laws and in ignorance of its constitution - in short, a dietrologian nightmare permeated by collective thought disorder.
Knox sounds pretty vile.
As her "best friend" lay dead after having her throat slashed only hours before... the friends of Meredith describe Knox's gleeful, sexually charged behavior at the police station:
Robin Butterworth testifying in court:
"I found Amanda's behavior very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her."
"Knox and Sollecito fooled around as they waited".
"I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele," Butterworth said in English, her testimony translated for the court. "They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.""
Amy Frost, another witness who was also at the police station, said Knox "made faces," such as crossing her eyes and sticking her tongue out. She was "giggling" and kissing Sollecito, said Frost.
The Kastle-Meyer chemical test relies upon hydrogen peroxide oxidizing phenolphthalin, which is colorless, to phenolphthalein, which is pink.
The police released photos (see above) to the press that some observers, such as Judy Bachrach of Vanity Fair, thought was blood. Based on the discrepancy between Ms. Knox’s description of the bathroom and its seemingly bloody appearance, some observers lost trust in Ms. Knox.
It's got primate written all over it, and that narrows down the list of candidates considerably.
Machiavelli effortlessly swings between his version of "logical errors" and the law. In the little bit highlighted above, his version of "logic" is that all of a sudden the law must be abandoned..... because if the law remains, he's just given the very definition of reasonable doubt.
I know it's California I'm quoting, but this is the charge to at least one jury in that State as to what Reasonable Doubt means: "If you find equal weight to a piece of evidence as to its tendency to acquit or to convict, you must choose the option that tends to acquit."
But swing back to M.'s view of logic, M. is desperate to keep his factoid in play at least by baiting-and-switching the terms of reference (moving the goalposts), "think it least possible that this factoid can be used to suggest guilt."
And as we have learned in this thread many times, somewhere down the line he's going to wave away with a flick of his hand the acquitting option, as "illogical, not part of Italian jurisprudence, and only a fiction in the mind of confirmation biased Knoxophiles."
At least as far as the internal logic of his own posts go, Machiavelli always wins. Three pages from now in Continuation 11 (and most assuredly we will make it to Continuation 12 if he keeps rebooting!), he'll make reference back to this as, "that is when I showed how illogical you were."
So hang in there Kauffer. Wait for the bait and switch. M. will argue until he's blue in the face, "just think it possible that Knox had had phone numbers of known drug dealers in her phone. Think it possible that she used those numbers in the exchange of sex for drugs. I am not saying she did, I am only trying to counter the 'good-girl' image that Knoxophiles wrongly propose."
Then sure enough, M. will claim the actual factoid as the reality of all that, not just the possibility. All with the wave of a hand and with nothing provided as you requested:
- no specific and precise occasions when Ms Knox had contact by phone or otherwise with drug dealers.
- no specific and precise occasions when Ms Knox had any contact with Rudy Guede.
- no specific "harassing behaviours" of Ms Knox (BTW - this is a new one M. has dreamt up.)
- no instances of Ms Knox talking "very naturally" with Guede on "nights" - (plural) - at the downstairs apartment (What does "very naturally" even mean, when one had choppy Italian, and the other spoke no English!??)
- no examples Ms Knox's involvement with "strange parties" - (plural) - "that went out of controls"
I thought that Machiavelli's side was winning this judicial war, just on the factoids as exist in Judge Massei's and Judge Nencini's motivations reports. They are content to wrongfully convict BOTH Sollecito AND Knox on their own set of factoids that have nothing to do with the latest from Machiavelli in this thread.
So it leads one to ask..... why does Machiavelli think Judge Nencini needs help?
Still waiting to find out which foot belonged to the "primate."
The bathmat print was made by a male human being, all of whom are primates. That is what we know. Guede is the male human being that claimed to be there messing with Meredith's blood. This is called a clue in detective work.Still waiting to find out which foot belonged to the "primate."
An honest whore has higher moral standing than any forensics specialist who commits fraud or misrepresents his or her methods or results.
I'm not a fan of Stafanoni. I think she has well earned for herself a jail cell for her to sit in and reflect on her criminal conduct and how many lives she's damaged with her foolish lies and deceit.
But I'm troubled by the 'whore' angle slurs that have come up.
It's sickening to see these kinds of ignorant attacks against Amanda, but it's uncomfortable to watch such baseless claims against Stef.
Originally Posted by Numbers:
"An honest whore has higher moral standing than any forensics specialist who commits fraud or misrepresents his or her methods or results."
Agree, it doesn't get much more despicable than this. Sort of like knowingly stealing from a charity . . .