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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Machiavelli's errors and ommissions

I don't recall such list.
Knowing the author, I would make the educated guess they were not real problems at all.

I also don't know exactly what you mean with "the PG position", as for me I talk through my arguments, which the pro-Knox are unable to respond to.

Just in the last few days we have had your assertion that Ricciarelli had evidence before him that he did not, that he did not think the climb to Romanelli's window would have been too much for Spider-Man, when in fact he did, through your inability to provide even one citation to support your position on the interpretation of the luminol hits, to your inability to understand the operation of Article 192 in Italian law. And much else besides, including unsubstantiated allegations that Ms Knox had multiple contacts with drug dealers. You should be embarrassed.
 
The theory is not about Knox trading sex for drugs and it is not about her being a whore.
The "theory" consists in pointing out some facts, that is that Knox had repeated phone contacts with multiple drug dealers who belonged to same ring and also sexual contacts with at least one of them.
It's not just a "number", it is a series of phone exchanges (on which Knox herself maintains a line of poor transparency).
As for the monetary aspect, in fact there is also cash withdrawal records which appear to be in a unjustified amount, especially because 1) there is no apparent counter value to them (receipts, goods, expenses etc); 2) it is all cash money.
As for acbytesla's last comment, obviously nobody thought that the purpose of killing was to gain 300 euros, suggesting that would be a very stupid straw man. However an urgent need for cash might have lead to incidents, like "borrow" 300 euros without asking for them or letting Guede take them, and an incident can be a premise for an extremely harsh argument, where something very different may come to be at stake.
The point in bringing up a set of elements that link Knox to a drug dealers' ring does not have the purpose to present a "theory" nor to draw a picture of Knox personality.
It has however the purpose to debunk and demolish a myth, a bogus characterization of Knox's personality as “having no contacts” with Guede, as not attending his environment , and as having a lifestyle incompatible with taking part to drug fuelled sexual encounters with drug dealers, such as it was presented by the Knox supporters PR campaign.
There is NO evidence of Knox being connected either with Guede or any drug dealers: They only had one documented meeting and all the rest is made up by "Italian Sources".
All of this drug dealer sex slave stuff is OBVIOUSLY not true.
If any of this WERE true the known nutcase prosecutor would have introduced all of these lies in court to try to convict the kids and the fact that none of this was ever introduced in court shows that it was nothing more than lies.
Everyone is smart enough top know that "Italain Sources" means lies made up by the police.
 

Yes they were, from the first link:

If the Court finds that there has been a violation, it may award you “just satisfaction”, a sum of money in compensation for certain forms of damage. The Court may also require the State concerned
to refund the expenses you have incurred in presenting your case.
If the Court finds that there has been no violation, you will not
have to pay any additional costs (such as those incurred by the
respondent State)


And

The Court does not act as a court of appeal in relation to national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions."
The Court will not intercede directly on your behalf with
the authority you are complaining about. In exceptional
circumstances the Court may, however, grant interim measures.
As a matter of practice it only does so where there is a serious
risk of physical harm to the applicant.
"
The Court will not help you find or pay a lawyer to draw up your
application.
"
The Court cannot give you any information on legal provisions
in force in the State against which your complaints are directed


Seems as though money is the best you can get form the court.
 
I have no idea what contradictions you think exist in the thesis that Guede attempted a burglary and subsequently killed Ms Kercher, but the thesis that Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito committed the crime with Guede is contradicted by multiple evidence points not the least of which is the fact that you have no evidence of Ms Knox in Ms Kercher's room nor any support for the view that despite the lack of evidence, it would have still been possible for her to have been there and killed Ms Kercher, from any forensic scientist, crime scene investigator or other expert testimony.

The idea that you need to find DNA or fingerprints of Ms. Knox in Meredith's room in order to "not contradict" their guilt, is a kind of assumption that, as I said, is too irrational to discuss. I point out that any pro-Knox position that is based such irrational settings, is not going to be an argument able to challenge guilters, judges or the rest of the world.
 
A list of problems with the luminol evidence

I don't recall such list.
Knowing the author, I would make the educated guess they were not real problems at all.

I also don't know exactly what you mean with "the PG position", as for me I talk through my arguments, which the pro-Knox are unable to respond to.
Given how little you understand of presumptive and confirmatory tests, I had assumed you chose not to respond.

1. Why is Meredith's DNA absent from the majority of the luminol-positive areas?
2. Why was no true confirmatory test done?
3. Why did the luminol-positive areas test negative by TMB, given that the lower limits of detection of the two reagents are so similar?
4. Why do some jurisdictions (several states in the U.S. and at least one in Australia) not even allow luminol evidence into the courtroom without supporting information, while others allow it in but acknowledge that luminol is only presumptive?
5. Is there any jurisdiction that treats luminol as a confirmatory test?
6. What evidence rules out iron, manganese, or other transition metal ions as the source of the luminol reactivity?
7. What errors did Virkler and Lednev make in their conclusion that the areas were probably not blood?
8. Who made Rep. 180? If it is Amanda's track, then why doesn't the second toe match? If it is not Amanda's track, then what reason is there to suppose that the substance in question is blood?
9.Why are there only right feet? When and how were the tracks made?
10. Did the overapplication of luminol cause a false positive?
11. Should the overapplication of luminol reduce one's confidence in the people doing and analyzing this test?
12. What substance caused the luminol-positive reactions in Sollecito's flat?
13. Why do so many forensic writers call for a colorimetric test (such as TMB) to follow a luminescent test (luminol or fluorescein)?

I realize that you tried to answer 12. Please try harder.
 
Given how little you understand of presumptive and confirmatory tests, I had assumed you chose not to respond.

1. Why is Meredith's DNA absent from the majority of the luminol-positive areas?
2. Why was no true confirmatory test done?
3. Why did the luminol-positive areas test negative by TMB, given that the lower limits of detection of the two reagents are so similar?
4. Why do some jurisdictions (several states in the U.S. and at least one in Australia) not even allow luminol evidence into the courtroom without supporting information, while others allow it in but acknowledge that luminol is only presumptive?
5. Is there any jurisdiction that treats luminol as a confirmatory test?
6. What evidence rules out iron, manganese, or other transition metal ions as the source of the luminol reactivity?
7. What errors did Virkler and Lednev make in their conclusion that the areas were probably not blood?
8. Who made Rep. 180? If it is Amanda's track, then why doesn't the second toe match? If it is not Amanda's track, then what reason is there to suppose that the substance in question is blood?
9.Why are there only right feet? When and how were the tracks made?
10. Did the overapplication of luminol cause a false positive?
11. Should the overapplication of luminol reduce one's confidence in the people doing and analyzing this test?
12. What substance caused the luminol-positive reactions in Sollecito's flat?
13. Why do so many forensic writers call for a colorimetric test (such as TMB) to follow a luminescent test (luminol or fluorescein)?

I realize that you tried to answer 12. Please try harder.

Wow. Those questions are hard. My bet: Machiavelli disappears for a while.
 
Irrationality

The idea that you need to find DNA or fingerprints of Ms. Knox in Meredith's room in order to "not contradict" their guilt, is a kind of assumption that, as I said, is too irrational to discuss. I point out that any pro-Knox position that is based such irrational settings, is not going to be an argument able to challenge guilters, judges or the rest of the world.

Not just fingerprints; not just DNA. There is no physical evidence of Ms Knox in Ms Kercher's room whatsoever. And you think that the idea that this does not contradict a thesis of guilt is irrational? The rational position is to demand evidence. This is the murder room, an abattoir of blood in a small space with no trace of her. This is not possible. There is no possible reconstruction of this crime involving three assailants that would not have resulted in prolific evidence of all three. And yet there is prolific evidence of just one. Find a CSI who will examine the crime scene and support you. Find just one!
 
There is NO evidence of Knox being connected either with Guede or any drug dealers: They only had one documented meeting and all the rest is made up by "Italian Sources".
All of this drug dealer sex slave stuff is OBVIOUSLY not true.
If any of this WERE true the known nutcase prosecutor would have introduced all of these lies in court to try to convict the kids and the fact that none of this was ever introduced in court shows that it was nothing more than lies.
Everyone is smart enough top know that "Italain Sources" means lies made up by the police.

The argument is plain idiotic.
As a preliminary point, it is worth recalling the defendants are not kids.
The prosecution could have never introduced the evidence from these investigations, since the suspect drug dealers were arrested in 2011, and the evidence collection phase on the Kercher trial had ended in 2009.
Amanda Knox wrote about having sex with 'Fedrico', and the arrested drug dealer's name is Federico Martini.
The phone records of Amanda Knox's phone traffic show a number of phone contacts which she doesn't match to any name.
It's worth recall is not "police", it's judges: those dealers were convicted for real, and one of the three drug dealers made a plea bargain, while another has been convicted and sentenced to 2 years and 8 months.
The names of the other two are Luciano (reportedly a boss to Federico) and Lorenzo.
Their attorneys were Aurelio Pugliese, Maria Laura Antonini and Angelo Frioni.


http://www.ternimagazine.it/36101/il-fatto/omicidio-mez-clamorosi-sviluppi-sesso-e-droga-condannato-amante-amanda.html


http://www.umbria24.it/amante-di-amanda-knox-a-processo-per-spaccio-di-cocaina/15156.html


Two of the sources are Umbria 24 and Ternimagazine.it
Amanda Knox is reported having phone contacts with Federico in the days both before and after the murder.
 
The argument is plain idiotic.
As a preliminary point, it is worth recalling the defendants are not kids.
The prosecution could have never introduced the evidence from these investigations, since the suspect drug dealers were arrested in 2011, and the evidence collection phase on the Kercher trial had ended in 2009.
Amanda Knox wrote about having sex with 'Fedrico', and the arrested drug dealer's name is Federico Martini.
The phone records of Amanda Knox's phone traffic show a number of phone contacts which she doesn't match to any name.
It's worth recall is not "police", it's judges: those dealers were convicted for real, and one of the three drug dealers made a plea bargain, while another has been convicted and sentenced to 2 years and 8 months.
The names of the other two are Luciano (reportedly a boss to Federico) and Lorenzo.
Their attorneys were Aurelio Pugliese, Maria Laura Antonini and Angelo Frioni.


http://www.ternimagazine.it/36101/il-fatto/omicidio-mez-clamorosi-sviluppi-sesso-e-droga-condannato-amante-amanda.html


http://www.umbria24.it/amante-di-amanda-knox-a-processo-per-spaccio-di-cocaina/15156.html


Two of the sources are Umbria 24 and Ternimagazine.it
Amanda Knox is reported having phone contacts with Federico in the days both before and after the murder.

This is nonsense. Evidence would be:

1) This is the drug dealer
2) This is his number
3) Here are Ms Knox's phone records
4) Here is the dealer's number in her call list
5) Repeat 1-4 for each instance with different dealers.
 
The argument is plain idiotic.
As a preliminary point, it is worth recalling the defendants are not kids.
The prosecution could have never introduced the evidence from these investigations, since the suspect drug dealers were arrested in 2011, and the evidence collection phase on the Kercher trial had ended in 2009.
Amanda Knox wrote about having sex with 'Fedrico', and the arrested drug dealer's name is Federico Martini.
The phone records of Amanda Knox's phone traffic show a number of phone contacts which she doesn't match to any name.
It's worth recall is not "police", it's judges: those dealers were convicted for real, and one of the three drug dealers made a plea bargain, while another has been convicted and sentenced to 2 years and 8 months.
The names of the other two are Luciano (reportedly a boss to Federico) and Lorenzo.
Their attorneys were Aurelio Pugliese, Maria Laura Antonini and Angelo Frioni.


http://www.ternimagazine.it/36101/il-fatto/omicidio-mez-clamorosi-sviluppi-sesso-e-droga-condannato-amante-amanda.html


http://www.umbria24.it/amante-di-amanda-knox-a-processo-per-spaccio-di-cocaina/15156.html


Two of the sources are Umbria 24 and Ternimagazine.it
Amanda Knox is reported having phone contacts with Federico in the days both before and after the murder.

The use of the passive tense masks the "who". I bet it was you reporting this....
 
The idea that you need to find DNA or fingerprints of Ms. Knox in Meredith's room in order to "not contradict" their guilt, is a kind of assumption that, as I said, is too irrational to discuss. I point out that any pro-Knox position that is based such irrational settings, is not going to be an argument able to challenge guilters, judges or the rest of the world.

Your intent is to dumbfound me to death. You are succeeding.
 
The idea that you need to find DNA or fingerprints of Ms. Knox in Meredith's room in order to "not contradict" their guilt, is a kind of assumption that, as I said, is too irrational to discuss. I point out that any pro-Knox position that is based such irrational settings, is not going to be an argument able to challenge guilters, judges or the rest of the world.

This is the logical flaw at the heart of your argument. All of your erroneous arguments are predicated on this blatant error in logic.

There is enormous evidence against Rudy Guede, none against Amanda and Raf. Because Rudy was in the room when Meredith was killed, and Amanda and Raf were not.

In order to maintain that Amanda and Raf are guilty, you have no choice but to dispute this settled point of logic that no reasonable person would disagree with. Your continuing failure to recognize this simple basic logical truth can only be described as 'cognitive dissonance'.

All your false arguments follow from this basic error.

For example, your corollary argument, is your insistence that the luminol footprints are in blood, and your insistence that the incomplete lab work, indeed the negative TMB test that disproves your thesis that the luminol footprints are in blood, must be similarly irrationally adopted.

But no forensic professionals agree with you. This isn't an areas where you get to have an opinion Mach. You're simply mistaken, and won't recognize it.

Magic shows aren't real Mach. There made up of tricks. Once the tricks have been exposed, the audience is onto you.

This case was never real. Just a corrupt idiot prosecutor, deflecting attention from his own collapsing career and catastrophic professional failures - which allowed Rudy Guede to remain free to kill Meredith Kercher, by framing two innocent students.

Giuliano Mignini is responsible for this entire tragedy. Mignini's gross incompetence and sadistic zealotry cost Meredith Kercher her life, and Amanda and Raffaele their freedom. And his crimes were televised.
 
Given how little you understand of presumptive and confirmatory tests, I had assumed you chose not to respond.

1. Why is Meredith's DNA absent from the majority of the luminol-positive areas?

Because they were too diluted, had a too prolonged exposure to light (as it happened with blood traces in the murder room too), the swabs were not always taken exactly from where the prints were, because the floor had been washed with detergent and because the amount of DNA collected by swabs anyway was minimal.
However, Meredith's DNA was recovered from 3 of the 9 visible luminol stains.

2. Why was no true confirmatory test done?

observation i) It is not clear what the adjective "true" means in this statement.
ii) there is actually no evidence that blood tests were not done
iii) the question is irrelevant

3. Why did the luminol-positive areas test negative by TMB, given that the lower limits of detection of the two reagents are so similar?

i) here there is just a false statement; that the practical limits of detection are "similar" is contradicted by experimental studies, such as: Todd et alt; Webb et alt; and other publications recently quoted on this forum. It is not true that the thresholds are similar; there is literature that found results contrary to that.
ii) in reality TMB in practical use is less sensitive than luminol and indirect, leading to a difference of factor in the magnitude of 10(2)
iii) TMB is also less specific than luminol
iii) TMB reacts to the same substances that is to the same false positives; no known, plausible substance exists that has the power to react with luminol and not with TMB

4. Why do some jurisdictions (several states in the U.S. and at least one in Australia) not even allow luminol evidence into the courtroom without supporting information, while others allow it in but acknowledge that luminol is only presumptive?

This is twisted information from rules of jury-based jurisdictions that you apparently wish to transplant (after twisting it) in other systems. This oblique point has no content, it is irrelevant. Those kinds of reference do not answer to the points that circumstantial evidence needs to be answered if you want to challenge it.

5. Is there any jurisdiction that treats luminol as a confirmatory test?

It's completely irrelevant and out of context. We are not talking about confirmatory tests here, we are not talking neither about "confirming" nor about just a substance. We are talking about pieces of circumstantial evidence.

6. What evidence rules out iron, manganese, or other transition metal ions as the source of the luminol reactivity?

Again it's irrelevant. There is no tests that ever "ruled out" a specific substance, but in evidence assessment process, there is no need to rule out specific substances. The point is that the burden is reversed: there is a need to have a plausible alternative substance and a plausible alternative dynamic, in order to undermine and dismiss the piece of circumstantial evidence.
A link between luminol prints and blood is already expressed by the analogy of features and same context of the luminol prints with the bathmat bare footprints in diluted blood; also, as well as by the peculiarity of the traces themselves, by the coincidence with one of Guede's shoeprints and by other information such as Knox's statements.
And there is no plausible substance containing metal ions. No such substance was detected inside the flat (and all bottles and substances present are recorded); the substances containing metal salts are usually toxic and not for direct human use (enamels, varnishings, gardening products) while the prints are of bare feet. Those alternative substances would react to TMB as well, but they are just not probable nor plausible, there is no evidence of their existence anywhere in the house, and there is no plausible or known dynamic for how a pattern of prints with that set of peculiar features would have been produced in any metal based substance.

7. What errors did Virkler and Lednev make in their conclusion that the areas were probably not blood?

I have no clue of what Virkler and Lednev said.

8. Who made Rep. 180? If it is Amanda's track, then why doesn't the second toe match? If it is not Amanda's track, then what reason is there to suppose that the substance in question is blood?

I don't know why the "second toe" doesn't match, but I can infer that if it's Knox's print, it might be the mark from a drop and not from direct contact. I can also note that the "second toe" in question was never discussed with prosecution's witnesses: when Rinaldi testified, he matched the print to a probable identity with Knox, while none of the defence questioned him about the "second toe".
Obviously it makes no sense to split the question 'whether it is blood' from the rest of the questions. It's worth recall that several prints however can't be matched with sufficient reliability with anyone, but anyway three of them are in Knox's room.

9.Why are there only right feet? When and how were the tracks made?

Because the person/s was/were dragging himself/herself on a bathmat and/or an equivalent piece of fabric.

10. Did the overapplication of luminol cause a false positive?

No, it's impossible. The overapplication itself can give autoluminescence as a residual effect, but cannot give to autoluminescence the shape of human feet.

11. Should the overapplication of luminol reduce one's confidence in the people doing and analyzing this test?

No, not at all.

12. What substance caused the luminol-positive reactions in Sollecito's flat?

Blood.

13. Why do so many forensic writers call for a colorimetric test (such as TMB) to follow a luminescent test (luminol or fluorescein)?

All tests serve the same purpose: collect as more information as possible, when it's possible.
The reason why TMB is suggested (by some, but not all authors) is not because it is colorimetric, but because it is cheap and easy, it can be safely recorded. While luminol is better, it has also inconvenients: it is rather difficult to use and what happens if it goes wrong? Like if the photographies are not good enough or if the preparation is bad. Better have a cheap and safe second test, so you still have evidence in any event.
But aftr all, still this question is irrelevant.

I realize that you tried to answer 12. Please try harder.

There is no need to. It's already obvious.
 
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This is the logical flaw at the heart of your argument. All of your erroneous arguments are predicated on this blatant error in logic.

There is enormous evidence against Rudy Guede, none against Amanda and Raf. Because Rudy was in the room when Meredith was killed, and Amanda and Raf were not.

In order to maintain that Amanda and Raf are guilty, you have no choice but to dispute this settled point of logic that no reasonable person would disagree with. Your continuing failure to recognize this simple basic logical truth can only be described as 'cognitive dissonance'.

All your false arguments follow from this basic error.

For example, your corollary argument, is your insistence that the luminol footprints are in blood, and your insistence that the incomplete lab work, indeed the negative TMB test that disproves your thesis that the luminol footprints are in blood, must be similarly irrationally adopted. (...)

TMB disproves nothing. I have quoted scientific literature finding TMB is less sensitive and less specific than luminol, and you bound up your eyes with prosciutto.

Nobody is able to disprove a grain of evidence. But your stunning belief in things you can't prove that defy any reality and common sens, stays unchallenged. Spare me your nauseating, silly defamatory comments about Mignini.
 
This is nonsense. Evidence would be:

1) This is the drug dealer
2) This is his number
3) Here are Ms Knox's phone records
4) Here is the dealer's number in her call list
5) Repeat 1-4 for each instance with different dealers.

It seems like Machiavellian is arguing that somebody reporting a phone call is more accurate than phone records :confused:
 
This is nonsense. Evidence would be:

1) This is the drug dealer
2) This is his number
3) Here are Ms Knox's phone records
4) Here is the dealer's number in her call list
5) Repeat 1-4 for each instance with different dealers.

Evidence would be, that if you assert that a newspaper is making a false claim (or that a police officer or judge is lying), you need to prove it.
 
Bill Williams said:
The use of the passive tense masks the "who". I bet it was you reporting this....

No, it was the news sources like those quoted above.

It must have been the underground publication called the Egregious Hippogriff. Or perhaps The Tombstone Epitaph (Tombstone, Arizona, US). Or was it The Keswick Reminder?

There are no lengths you will not go to to invent things.
 
Evidence would be, that if you assert that a newspaper is making a false claim (or that a police officer or judge is lying), you need to prove it.

This is nonsense. Evidence would be to provide the information which Kauffer lists. There is no limit to your nonsense.
 
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