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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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No just a moment. It's the pro-Knox activist posters who cite Sfarzo as their source, at times now and then. They cite him as a source, as a foundation to their arguments. So, if you motivate your argumentation based on the fact that the Source says that, it's obvious that the reliability of the Source may be part of the question. It's not me who decides to rely on Frank Sfarzo: if some people decide, on their own initiative, to associate themselves to sources that are questionable, this must be noted because reflects on their arguments.

All that matters is that there is no credible evidence of Amanda or Raff being at the murder scene . . . .Case closed. Doesn't matter what witness you value or not value otherwise.
 
But the truth is the defence didn't ask to see all the cards. They obtained all what they asked, while the evidence was being discussed. The Florence request at that point was just an opportunistic attempt after the evidence discussion was already closed. The shop owner (Stefanoni) did not refuse, if was judge Nencini who didn't allow the request to be forwarded, since that was not a credible or substantial ground for reopening an evidence discussion session on that topic.

You forgot to add that Judge Massei ordered full disclosure, Comodi refused, and defendants sought dismissal as a result. Aside from that you've expressed a very nice delusion.
 
March 21, 2009 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/41625532.html
Rosa Natalia Guaman Fernandez De Calle said she last went to Sollecito's house on Nov. 5, 2007, when she was asked to clean "as usual" and nothing seemed different in the house.

The woman said she neither used nor smelled bleach that day. She said that, because there were other cleaning products in the house, she could not be sure whether bleach was among them.

Prosecutors say it is significant that the bleach was not used by the cleaning woman, yet it was smelled the day after by police.​


Raffaele and Amanda were there at 2pm when the cleaning lady started. They left and were later having dinner at a friends house. Is there any indication that they had even returned to the apartment before being called back for questioning that evening? The whole house was just cleaned with Lysofoam. Are we to believe a stupid cop that has probably never picked up a cleaning rag in his life that he knows the difference in smell between these cleaning products?

Of course Machiavelli believes the cops. He has nothing to loose by maintaining an unfaultering beliefe in the authorities. In the end when this case finally unravels he will simply drop the anonymous alias and pretend none of this ever happened like he pretends much of the discussion in this thread never happened.

These people are good at using all of the senses to convict people. What other case has nose witnesses and ear witnesses?
 
Machiavelli said:
No just a moment. It's the pro-Knox activist posters who cite Sfarzo as their source, at times now and then. They cite him as a source, as a foundation to their arguments. So, if you motivate your argumentation based on the fact that the Source says that, it's obvious that the reliability of the Source may be part of the question. It's not me who decides to rely on Frank Sfarzo: if some people decide, on their own initiative, to associate themselves to sources that are questionable, this must be noted because reflects on their arguments.

All that matters is that there is no credible evidence of Amanda or Raff being at the murder scene . . . .Case closed. Doesn't matter what witness you value or not value otherwise.

Machiavelli needs to add Michael Winterbottom and Paul Viragh as "pro-Knox activist posters". Frank Sfarzo forms the basis of the "theory of the crime" and "why the police went wrong" for Viragh, the screenwriter, and for Winterbottom who had creative control over Nadaeu's book.

And perhaps Machiavelli can add Barbie Latza Nadeau to this list as well, although she still is pluggin' away at her theme of, "Knox knows more than she's telling us." That way Nadeau can continue to monetize this.

I am sure Frank Sfarzo is appreciating the mention - so as to get picked up on web searches. Thank you, Machiavelli. He cannot buy visibility like this!

Although wait until "The Face of an Angel" goes into general release.
 
Machiavelli said:
Ad hominem? What are you talking about. There is no ad hominem. Sfarzo is a source, just like Quintavalle is a trial witness. What makes the reliability of a source become questionable are objective facts. There are reports from people who hosted Frank. There accounts by people giving money to Frank, like the Canadian gentleman which you certainly know. He had problems with law enforcement in Ontario, State of Washington, Hawaii and was a subject of complaints from family members in Italy. But you all well know this. We all read what he wrote and his style when talking about women on some of the incidents. You have a right to chose whom to believe, but the quality of your sources will obviously have an implication on the credibility of your position.

That is the pure definition of an ad hominem attack. Instead of dealing with the argument you attack the messenger, in this case Frank Sfarzo. While all of your points may be true, they have little to do with Frank's reporting on the Kercher trial. It is merely a distraction and beneath you.

Machiavelli has raised rumour to an artform, and goes further to the level of something to evaluate a source. No wonder Machiavelli is having trouble being a "nemisis" here. It is not so strange, then, that the holders of those rumours offer rumour up as "proof". To the lurkers and casual readers here, please note the method. And evaluate as you will.
 
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Well, no. As for Frank Sfarzo what we have is facts. Police reports are facts not opinions. We had some people who happened to report about precise incidents and episodes.
Don Saulo Scarabattoli he used to be a Parrish priest in a neighborhood of Perugia before working in Capanne. I never met him. I only had opinions from people of that neighborhood and had him as their priest, who did not seem to consider don Saulo as a particularly smart person. Anyway don Saulo is not a source. He may be used as a propaganda ploy, but he was not the source of information from the trial to the pro-Knoxes. Frank Sfarzo was.
I am not a source neither: I am only the pro-Knoxes' Nemesis.

You do seem to have a well developed habit of pushing unsubstantiated contention. As for your last claim - I think not. You are merely an anonymous, often disingenuous poster(s) who seeks to lecture real scientists about science and real lawyers about the law; in both cases you should instead be taking notes.
 
You do seem to have a well developed habit of pushing unsubstantiated contention.

Are you talking about Frank Sfarzo?

As for your last claim - I think not. You are merely an anonymous, often disingenuous poster(s) who seeks to lecture real scientists about science and real lawyers about the law; in both cases you should instead be taking notes.

Well, as a citizen, I think there are some scientists who may need to be lectured about law, and some anonymous posters (maybe lawyers) who seem to have indulged too much to posing as self-proclaimed judges. But mostly, there is a club of conspiracy theorists that hosts among them also a vein of badly concealed prejudice and a sort of ideological anger.
 
But, I think instead there isn't any litany of errors. There is a kind of litany of claims and complaints, but this is a defense experts and her job is to list all the holes and imperfections, possibly to emphasize them and twist the to cast the worse possible light.
In fact those claims are subjected to verification and even those that are true might be of no importance as to the final decision, since this is a judgement on the defendants' guilt, not on the forensic qualities. Claims subjected to verifications and assessment, for example, is complaints kik that the fluorimeter is not the instrument recorded in testimony and technical report; a complaint of "late discovery" or lack of documentation on this doesn't have substantial merits, since the fluorineter was used in an incidente probatorio and so the defence expert was aware about exactly all operations performed, took part to the documentation and signed it and could have documented it himself.

Mach, the problem is that so much of what is described is what one sees in poorly run laboratories. One keeps a laboratory note book, one records contemporaneously what one does (for a good example of what happens if you fail to keep contemporaneous records read Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Stevenson RL, Longman Green & Co. London 1886) Stefanoni obviously had not. There were clearly no SOPs in place. Appropriate controls were not run. When I was doing my PhD, the head of the department took my first draft of my first paper flipped through to the references pointed out I had spelt someones name wrong and said if I couldn't spell a name right how could he believe that the rest was accurate. He was right in the point he was making. One gets good results by paying attention to the details. There is no excuse for such a crappy report. If i was the director of the laboratory and one of my staff produced a report with such obvious holes in there would have been a long and serious talk, if the omissions were actual and not in the report, that discussion would have made it clear there would be no future in my lab. these errors are just dreadful! like seeing a surgeon spit on the scalpel and polish it on his shirt sleeve before cutting into you.
 
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and some anonymous posters (maybe lawyers) who seem to have indulged too much to posing as self-proclaimed judges.

I would consider that to be an ad hom attack if you are comparing anyone on this board to an Italian judge. Based on what I can see, Italian judges seem to be stupid and incompetent, especially the supreme court ones. Sad.
 
You do seem to have a well developed habit of pushing unsubstantiated contention. As for your last claim - I think not. You are merely an anonymous, often disingenuous poster(s) who seeks to lecture real scientists about science and real lawyers about the law; in both cases you should instead be taking notes.

The claims of expertise have ranged from Italian law, legal procedure, DNA forensics, sleep deprivation issues, the Italian Mafia concept of omertà as it relates to the populous of Seattle in the USA (of all places)....

..... to psychology and logic. Etc. So far M./Y. has stayed away from the rhetorical excesses of the other folk pushing the Pro-guilt lobby. I don't think I've ever heard M. speak of "abundant DNA", or "mixed-blood". He pays attention.

I have learned a lot about Italian law and procedure from this thread. Most of that, strangely, is from Machiavelli. He seems to have a good working knowledge of it, and can often anticipate (correctly) the way a prosecutor will present a case, and how a judge will adjudicate it.

There is also the temptation to delve into unsubstantiated rumour, which ruins the obvious strengths.
 
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You forgot to add that Judge Massei ordered full disclosure, Comodi refused, and defendants sought dismissal as a result. Aside from that you've expressed a very nice delusion.

I didn't forgot. I remember it differently. Comodi did not refuse, she accepted. Se evidently told Stefanoni to provide documentation.

After that, what happened is:

1 - the defenses (in particular following Tagliabracci's testimony) said some SAls were missing, asked if there was further documentation and asked if they could have them, but failed to request raw data or to complain about their absence.
2 - Comodi said they had no further documentation, those SALs didn't exist
3 - judge Massei denied the defence request (not Comodi), assessing that the defence failed to explain why they should need further documentation (and the issue of raw data was never discussed)
4 - the defence did not seek "dismissal as a result" of said denial. They sought "dismissal" (actually annulment of Stefanoni's testimony) but not as the result of failure to provide full documentation nor failure to provide raw data; they sought as the result of late discovery, that was after Tagliabracci's notes in his testimony. Thus, not failure to provide data, but late discovery, that is having provided some data too late.
5 - Massei denied the annullment request, on the reasonable ground that it was the defence who didn't seek the data in the incidente probatorio; so did Hellmann, and so did Nencini.

The defence was clearly not focused on obtaining raw data, and was not focused on missing data at the the of the final disclosure.
 
I assume this statement about ECHR issuing arrest warrants is a rhetorical flourish. The only entity that ECtHR "tries" is the "respondent state" in terms of whether or not it committed a violation of the applicant's rights. The ECtHR then orders just satisfaction, that is, a small payment to the victim, if there has been a violation. The victim's legal fees are also then at least partially compensated (usually). Sometimes the ECtHR will give some indication of how to redress the violation to restore the victim (individual measures) and to prevent a repetition (general measures), but this seems rare. The "enforcement" of the ECtHR judgment, and the negotiation with the respondent state for generating and implementing the individual and general measures, is the responsibility of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. That body cannot order the arrest of anyone, to my knowledge.

ETA: It does negotiate (gently demand?) changes in a state's practices, regulations, laws, or constitution.
ETA2: And the CoM of the CoE also negotiates to restore the victim, as best as possible, to a status as before the violation of rights.

Guilty of multiple enflourishments of nearly breath-taking proportions.

However, what happens when the ECHR comes across a case like this, where exculpatory evidence is destroyed and concealed, and the state's lab tech openly commits perjury repeatedly on the witness stand?

Is the ECHR just pointing out the criminal behavior of Mignini and his goons, and the criminal machinations of the tabloids and tv shows, are the ECHR calling attention to this behavior for fun?

Is there an international criminal court in the Hague that could assist?

In the US, crimes committed under the 'color of law' are considered heightened offenses. Could the outcome of a favorable ECHR case, be an extradition request for Mignini et als to stand trial in US court on charges of aggravated kidnapping, assault, slavery, child porn (Amanda was a minor in the state of WA when this occurred) and anything else appropriate?

Seems like a shame that these sleazy low lowlifes get to just walk away from their crimes.
 
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Yes, everybody knows that the msot reliable people are homeless drug adicts and adicts in general.

And half -deaf crazy elderly ladies who have been involuntarily committed to insane asylums.

Italy has by far the most productive underclass of citizen witnesses in the western hemisphere. Of course, hopefully few other jurisdictions would condone the parade of tramps Mignini has marching in and out of courtrooms.
 
Mach, the problem is that so much of what is described is what one sees in poorly run laboratories. One keeps a laboratory note book, one records contemporaneously what one does (for a good example of what happens if you fail to keep contemporaneous records read Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Stevenson RL, Longman Green & Co. London 1886) Stefanoni obviously had not. There were clearly no SOPs in place. Appropriate controls were not run. When I was doing my PhD, the head of the department took my first draft of my first paper flipped through to the references pointed out I had spelt someones name wrong and said if I couldn't spell a name right how could he believe that the rest was accurate. He was right in the point he was making. One gets good results by paying attention to the details. There is no excuse for such a crappy report. If i was the director of the laboratory and one of my staff produced a report with such obvious holes in there would have been a long and serious talk, if the omissions were actual and not in the report, that discussion would have made it clear there would be no future in my lab. these errors are just dreadful! like seeing a surgeon spit on the scalpel and polish it on his shirt sleeve before cutting into you.

This is your opinion about the Polizia Scientifica report. I don't subscribe to it, I don't think that is a crappy work at all. I also don't consider it a laboratory work, and not as a report produced by one individual. I think it is also an unfounded assertion to say that operational procedures were not in place. Yet, I am not going to argue about your opinion. I will put it on a shelf. The point is elsewhere.
This is a murder case. There is a judge, and the focus of judgement is the defendant alone (and this is true even more when there is an inquisitorial principle in the system). Not the quality of the investigation, not the professionalism of this or that expert or witness or party, not even the quality of a piece of evidence: just the defendant alone. It's no zero sum game: the defendant does not become innocent if the detectives are unprofessional or the forensics are not good and not even if the prosecution is sloppy. Guilt or innocence of the defendant can only be asssessed by a judge directly and independently from all these external elements.
Second, this is a murder trial means it is about an overall system of evidence; it not a trial about DNA, nor about forensic evidence. It is only about evidence as a whole. And DNA, in this case, is an unnecessary element. Even if the forensics had been completely sloppy and had provided no DNA evidence at all, had I been the judge I would have convicted anyway. I would find them guilty beyond reasonable doubt with no need of DNA at all.
Yet, DNA here is not a "crappy" result at all. The bra clasp and the knife are valid results and good evidence simply because they fulfill the intrinsic property of good pieces of evidence: there is no likely explanation for them. The myth og "contamination" is in fact a conspiracy theory and thus is worth nothing.
And DNA findings on the knife are also part of a contiguous system. The victim's blood on the knife, for example, is not just backed by the DNA result, but also by the defendant's own admission that the knife came into contact with the victim. There was also the defendant admission that the victim's DNA might be found on the cleaning rags, there was Knox's admission in prison saying she was worried by the knife, there was Knox's DNA on the handle and on the blade at the handle insertion and there was her own blood on the tap where the murderer washed him/herself together with the victim's blood. Knox's DNA on handle, Sollecito's double and repeated admission, Knox's admission, Knox's DNA on blade, Knox's blood: this is a contiguous pattern of elements. In Italian legalese we say conducenti, they are "conductive". The knife is also an incredible match to the bed sheet imprint.
All this is what makes the knife a piece of circumstantial evidence.
 
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Well, no. As for Frank Sfarzo what we have is facts. Police reports are facts not opinions. We had some people who happened to report about precise incidents and episodes.
Don Saulo Scarabattoli he used to be a Parrish priest in a neighborhood of Perugia before working in Capanne. I never met him. I only had opinions from people of that neighborhood and had him as their priest, who did not seem to consider don Saulo as a particularly smart person. Anyway don Saulo is not a source. He may be used as a propaganda ploy, but he was not the source of information from the trial to the pro-Knoxes. Frank Sfarzo was.
I am not a source neither: I am only the pro-Knoxes' Nemesis.

Either that, or the Cat's Pajamas.
 
And half -deaf crazy elderly ladies who have been involuntarily committed to insane asylums.

This one is real ad-hominem. It's unforgivable: completely unsupported, completely prejudicial (like guessing that Quintavalle was "elderly").
 
I didn't forgot. I remember it differently. Comodi did not refuse, she accepted. Se evidently told Stefanoni to provide documentation.

After that, what happened is:

1 - the defenses (in particular following Tagliabracci's testimony) said some SAls were missing, asked if there was further documentation and asked if they could have them, but failed to request raw data or to complain about their absence.
2 - Comodi said they had no further documentation, those SALs didn't exist
3 - judge Massei denied the defence request (not Comodi), assessing that the defence failed to explain why they should need further documentation (and the issue of raw data was never discussed)
4 - the defence did not seek "dismissal as a result" of said denial. They sought "dismissal" (actually annulment of Stefanoni's testimony) but not as the result of failure to provide full documentation nor failure to provide raw data; they sought as the result of late discovery, that was after Tagliabracci's notes in his testimony. Thus, not failure to provide data, but late discovery, that is having provided some data too late.
5 - Massei denied the annullment request, on the reasonable ground that it was the defence who didn't seek the data in the incidente probatorio; so did Hellmann, and so did Nencini.

The defence was clearly not focused on obtaining raw data, and was not focused on missing data at the the of the final disclosure.

I am not knowledgable enough to address all your statements. However, I would like to point out the following ECtHR case:

Laska and Lika v. Albania 12315/04 Final 20/07/2010

The two applicants were accused and convicted of armed robbery. The robbers wore blue and white balaclavas. The suspects were put into an ID parade wearing blue and white balaclavas supplied by the police, the "controls" wore black balaclavas. The applicants had no lawyer at the ID parade. The ID parade was not conducted in conformance with Albanian law (CCP). Note that the applicants had requested the balaclavas be produced in Albanian court for review; this was denied (by the judge). The ECtHR finds this denial to be groundless and unfair.

Now in the Knox - Sollecito case, the forensic police did not present DNA and electronic data files etc. in their possession, even when requested to do so by Judge Hellmann; IIUC Judge Massei also issued a request. This request was different from any request to strike Stefanoni's data IIUC. So I see in the Knox - Sollecito case in this particular denial of evidence a clear violation of Article 6 of the Convention. And to reiterate, failure to provide the evidence for the defense review is not consistent with the Italian Constitution Article 111.
 
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G,uilty of multiple enflourishments of nearly breath-taking proportions.

However, what happens when the ECHR comes across a case like this, where exculpatory evidence is destroyed and concealed, and the state's lab tech openly commits perjury repeatedly on the witness stand?

Is the ECHR just pointing out the criminal behavior of Mignini and his goons, and the criminal machinations of the tabloids and tv shows, are the ECHR calling attention to this behavior for fun?

Is there an international criminal court in the Hague that could assist?

In the US, crimes committed under the 'color of law' are considered heightened offenses. Could the outcome of a favorable ECHR case, be an extradition request for Mignini et als to stand trial in US court on charges of aggravated kidnapping, assault, slavery, child porn (Amanda was a minor in the state of WA when this occurred) and anything else appropriate? Seems like a shame that these sleazy low lowlifes get to just walk away from their crimes.

For the ICC, they are limited to broad-scale crimes such as genocide:

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

The International Criminal Court (ICC or ICCt)[2] is an intergovernmental organization and international tribunal that sits in The Hague in the Netherlands. The ICC has the jurisdiction to prosecute individuals for the international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes and it may one day be able to exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression. The ICC is intended to complement existing national judicial systems and it may therefore only exercise its jurisdiction when certain conditions are met, such as when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals or when the United Nations Security Council or individual states refer investigations to the Court.

Most likely any criminal action agains Mignini et al. would be by Italian authorities. They already prosecuted him once for abuse of power (IIUC) and while he was convicted, he escaped sentencing due to the pecularities of Italian judicial management and the statute of limitations.

Your creative legal ideas I highlighted. As an amateur and fully unlicensed lawyer, I would hesitate to speak on this, except to point out that jurisdictional issues may be decisive. Unless the perpetrator is a terrorist....
 
ad-homina-homina-homina

This one is real ad-hominem. It's unforgivable: completely unsupported, completely prejudicial (like guessing that Quintavalle was "elderly").

Please Mach, there must be some elderly people in Italy. And why is this an ad hom attack? Nara isn't to blame for being half-deaf, and having been involuntary committed to an asylum (at least according to Candace Dempsey's book, but I'm guessing you don't find her reliable).

And Curatolo, the serial witness homeless heroin addict, slurring his speech, and coming late to the party like all the other "witnesses", surely he was the very picture of credulity.

I am quite certain Curatolo is as reliable a witness, as any of the convicting judges in this case are legal scholars. Now is that an ad hom too?
 
This is your opinion about the Polizia Scientifica report. I don't subscribe to it, I don't think that is a crappy work at all. I also don't consider it a laboratory work, and not as a report produced by one individual. I think it is also an unfounded assertion to say that operational procedures were not in place. Yet, I am not going to argue about your opinion. I will put it on a shelf. The point is elsewhere.
This is a murder case. There is a judge, and the focus of judgement is the defendant alone (and this is true even more when there is an inquisitorial principle in the system). Not the quality of the investigation, not the professionalism of this or that expert or witness or party, not even the quality of a piece of evidence: just the defendant alone. It's no zero sum game: the defendant does not become innocent if the detectives are unprofessional or the forensics are not good and not even if the prosecution is sloppy. Guilt or innocence of the defendant can only be asssessed by a judge directly and independently from all these external elements.
Second, this is a murder trial means it is about an overall system of evidence; it not a trial about DNA, nor about forensic evidence. It is only about evidence as a whole. And DNA, in this case, is an unnecessary element. Even if the forensics had been completely sloppy and had provided no DNA evidence at all, had I been the judge I would have convicted anyway. I would find them guilty beyond reasonable doubt with no need of DNA at all.
Yet, DNA here is not a "crappy" result at all. The bra clasp and the knife are valid results and good evidence simply because they fulfill the intrinsic property of good pieces of evidence: there is no likely explanation for them. The myth og "contamination" is in fact a conspiracy theory and thus is worth nothing.
And DNA findings on the knife are also part of a contiguous system. The victim's blood on the knife, for example, is not just backed by the DNA result, but also by the defendant's own admission that the knife came into contact with the victim. There was also the defendant admission that the victim's DNA might be found on the cleaning rags, there was Knox's admission in prison saying she was worried by the knife, there was Knox's DNA on the handle and on the blade at the handle insertion and there was her own blood on the tap where the murderer washed him/herself together with the victim's blood. Knox's DNA on handle, Sollecito's double and repeated admission, Knox's admission, Knox's DNA on blade, Knox's blood: this is a contiguous pattern of elements. In Italian legalese we say conducenti, they are "conductive". The knife is also an incredible match to the bed sheet imprint.
All this is what makes the knife a piece of circumstantial evidence.

This is very helpful. I am sure that you are right in how the Italian legal system works.
 
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