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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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(...) This is one long strawman argument, Machiavelli. What does "the thinking of Pro-knox supporters" have to do with anything?

Why don't you just read Judge Massei's report if you want to know the "judicial fact" about who Amanda Knox is? Judge Massei gave a description of Knox's personality which conforms with what you say is the FOA view of her. Judge Massei found her (and Raffaele) guilty because of an inexplicable "choice for evil", which was his way of trying to explain why such a normal person would (for him) engage in murder.

Just for the record: the Massei report is not a "judicial truth".
It is trial document but not a judicial fact.
Massei has been appealed and is no longer a valid verdict, the current "judicial truths" is the Nencini report. together with the Supreme Court verdicts.

I don't know why the Pro-guilt lobby which you represent needs to continually reinvent the crime, and make out Knox to be something not even the judges thought her to be.

I don't know why you assume that guilters' ideas need to be identical to some judge's ruling. We are not believers of a Doctrine. We do not belong to a Church of The Orthodox Guilters. It's ridiculous.
 
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I don't even know if you wrote is correct or not but do you know how common it is for college students to change their majors or courses of studies? It is incredibly common.

It is incredibly common for college students to do a lot of crazy and incoherent things. Knox in 2007 seems to me as the rather typical American young folk in his/her year of stay abroad, just a within a phase of erratic search for herself.

I may well end here my description of Knox's charachter. I just know that if I end it here, and if I were a judge, some of the pro-Knox people will spin my words, from the word "common" about some things, they would spin and say that I think Knox is psychologically "normal"; or they'll put forward the theory that she was a "honor student" therefore her charachter is incompatible with theories of sex games or that she can't be associated with Guede.
 
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I never said she was a 'lazy student' or that she was improductive.
But she was a bohemién, an anarchical self-ruled learner. She went after pleasure, betraying commitments, not after utility.

But she got a creative writing degree and is now in gainful employment. She is hard working and productive. Ok.
 
Just for the record: the Massei report is not a "judicial truth".
It is trial document but not a judicial fact.
Massei has been appealed and is no longer a valid erdict, the current "judicial truths" is the Nencini report. together with the Supreme Court verdicts.



I don't know why you assume that guilters' ideas need to be identical to some judge's ruling. We are not believers of a Doctrine. We do not belong to a Church of The Orthodox Guilters. It's ridiculous.

Would help to have some consistency.
 
Just for the record: the Massei report is not a "judicial truth".
It is trial document but not a judicial fact.
Massei has been appealed and is no longer a valid erdict, the current "judicial truths" is the Nencini report. together with the Supreme Court verdicts.

That's the best news I've heard.

Read this analysis of the Nencini motivations report.... if Nencini's is the current version of judicial truth, I ask.... why does Nencini need to reinvent the crime? The crime he describes is not the crime Judge Massei described, nor even the one assumed by Cassazione.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/knox-and-sollecito-dissection-of-a-conviction/
 
Here's a piece by Stephen Robert Morse, who was twitter-assaulted by trolls (his description) for a six-word tweet he made, which was:

“Solid piece on #AmandaKnox and #RaffaeleSollecito” and then linked to an opinion piece by Andrew Gumbel in The Guardian. Within seconds, the trolls arrived.

http://stephenrobertmorse.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/amanda1/

Morse started off his own defence by asking the trolls, "What other cases are you working on or passionate about." He got no answer.

Some of the tidbits which Morse writes, appealed to me:

Occasionally, during the past week since I wrote the Tweet Heard Around My Twittersphere, my attempts to not get angry at the haters failed. I’d write some tweets back to them, meant to rile them up, detailing that 1. The haters probably didn’t speak Italian (I do…) and 2. The haters probably weren’t at Amanda and Raffaele’s trial (I was, as a journalist…).

Let’s presume that these folks on the Internet aren’t obsessed with Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. Let’s even assume that they have all of their mental faculties in place. Now then, why is it that these people care so much about a grisly incident that occurred in Italy 7 years ago?​

Very quickly, I learned that the narrative in British media, the one detailed by prosecutors, was preposterous and false. In essence, the prosecutor, Giulano Mignini, overstepped his bounds and basically created a theory that Kercher was murdered in a sex game gone bad, a theory that he learned about from his trusted psychic who’s now, thankfully, dead. Mignini had made other prior errors in his prosecutorial work and had been sanctioned for his actions, such as when he sent journalist Mario Spezi to prison, which is well-documented in The Monster of Florence, the book that Spezi co-authored with American writer Douglas Preston.

Soon after I arrived in Italy and spoke with some thirty people about the case, not a soul thought Amanda and Rafaelle were guilty. They were simply at the wrong place, at the wrong time, with a power-hungry prosecutor running the show.

For the record, it was Rudy Guede, the man who was convicted alongside Knox and Sollecito, who murdered Meredith, alone.​

For example, take Jack Gleeson, who had the (mis)fortune of playing the character Joffrey on the HBO hit series Game of Thrones. Gleeson has suffered frequent harassment by people on the street because they passionately hated his ‘Game of Thrones’ character. Now imagine how bad that is for Amanda. This is just another case of the masses rooting against the bad guys, and unfortunately, yet in Amanda’s cause, as I outlined above, they’ve simply chosen the wrong bad guy to root against.

Amanda has responded with strength and intelligence to the people who have created hateful Facebook groups against her, like Perugia Vi Odia (Perugia Hates You), and it is my hope that one day her world will be free of the misplaced hatred that has already been lofted upon her for years.​
 
What you say is pure nonsense instead. Meredith was not on hand and knees when she was stabbed on the right side. Between the first stabbing on the right and the secon stabbing on the left, her body position was changed. And also her location in the room.
PROVE THIS: I would be interested how you could prove this but, of course you cannot. I would ebb really interested if you could prove it.
He also received 43 bruises over the course of the action, before the final stabbing. .
Yes: Rudy beat her up and grabbed her hair to twist her to the ground to make the final blow from behind
She was not struck repeatedly from the right side, she was struck only once, and it was only a half-force blow; and there was certainly one knife which was not short, as the imprint on the bed sheet shows. .
Rudy stabbed repeatedly from the right side to draw her hand defenses to the right. I did not say he struck her. The knife print in the pillow was from the short knife: The long knife is a fantasy that is not in the murder room.
It makes no sense to assume she protected her wound with her nads: victims use their hands to catch the knife and stop the aggressor, they use their hands on the aggressor not on their wounds, they start doing this before they are wounded as well as they go on doing the same after.
She could not use her hands to catch the knife or attack Rudy because he was behind and above her. Could you explain how she could get at Rudy or the knife if he and the knife was behind and above her??? I REALLY and interested in this theory. She would be protecting herself from the knife: until he reached around and stabbed her, unexpectedly, on the left side.
By the way, how does one ward off knife blows coming from behind them?
 
It is incredibly common for college students to do a lot of crazy and incoherent things. Knox in 2007 seems to me as the rather typical American young folk in his/her year of stay abroad, just a within a phase of erratic search for herself.

I may well end here my description of Knox's charachter. I just know that if I end it here, and if I were a judge, some of the pro-Knox people will spin my words, from the word "common" about some things, they would spin and say that I think Knox is psychologically "normal"; or they'll put forward the theory that she was a "honor student" therefore her charachter is incompatible with theories of sex games or that she can't be associated with Guede.

The problem is that even if people rebel (which it does not seem like Amanda even did), few of them ever murder. Part of our biology to be blunt. Most people who eventually commit murder, especially anything like you describe, almost always has prior activity. For example with Omar Ballard, you could see activity of violence toward women already starting long before he murdered Michelle Moore-Bosko. You would expect something along those lines from Amanda previously.
 
Strongest arguements...

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Usually there is a single item which makes one think that somebody is guilty, their "strongest argument" might be a way of describing it.

So what is your single strongest argument for the guilt of Amanda and Rafffaele?
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Most Confirmation-Biased Pro-Guilt Gumpers (CBPG) won't tell you what their real strongest arguement is, because it's cheap and involves no thinking at all and is fed by their underlying perception of how the world should work, not how it actually works, but how they think it does or should work, and most of these perceptions are built around a narcissistic belief system, i.e. a system built on confirmation bias.

And that arguement is that Amanda looks guilty (sadly it really has nothing to do with getting Raffaele who truly is collateral damage here), and that's their strongest arguement for Amanda's guilt. They aren't really trying to find Meredith's real killer or even the truth or even that they really care about Meredith to begin with.

Some of it is based on woman hating in general, or hating of woman like Amanda. Some even enjoyed the thought that photos of Meredith's dead body were shown on the big screen in open court, with some of them searching for them on the internet.

It's really all about getting that B/ Witch Amanda.

And the dead giveaway is that almost all their evidence (their pretend strongest arguements) all center mostly around the psychology of Amanda. The way she acted after the murders (the cartwheel for example). Her inconsistencies in what she remembered after the fact. Her testimony on the stand. Saying that the break-in was staged by Amanda. All the motives that I've seen involve or revolve around Amanda somehow. If Amanda hadn't been there, it would never have happened scenarios. These are the corner stones of many of the CBPG's case.

One of many ways that you can tell who a Confirmation Biased Pro-Guilt Gumper (CBPG) is, is to go through this checklist (Any NO equals you're talking to a real CBPGer, the more NOs, the closer they are to being a real hardcore CBPGer):

1) Have they ever said that if the evidence proves otherwise, they will believe in their innocence, and they will actually discuss the evidence and not just explain how it's not legally evidence.

2) Do they want to know the whole truth, not just what they think the truth is, or what's legally admissible, but the real truth. For example, wanting the EDF files released and the inside of the knife looked at and the other profiles on the bra-clasp disclosed.

3) And finally, admitting that contamination of the bra clasp is possible. It doesn't have to be highly probable, but to say it's impossible is ridiculous and anyone who says that knows it.
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Much of what is used by real CBPGers to attack Amanda (and her "groupies") is the same kind of bullying practices that were used in high school, it's actually the next logical step in bullying and many of the underlying practices are still being used. It would be untruthful and dishonest though, to say that only one side uses bullying as a way to get their kicks. People get a kick out of it. It's really as simple as all that.

Why they get a kick out of it is another subject all together, and the number of theories are mind boggling. But, it all eventually gets back to that kick, that people get out of doing things like bullying. Most of them, in my opinion, are being used as some kind of psychological release valve for their perceived angers.

Psychology is fun to think about, but shouldn't be used as evidence in a murder trial. If everybody agreed on what it all meant, than yes, maybe it might be of value, but not in its current state, especially with what little we know about killers to begin with.

If you're going to use psychology as one of the cornerstones for your guilt complex, be prepared to have the Psychological Interpretation Engine (PIE) used back at you.

For example, confirmation bias is not as easy to detect as you would think. I myself actively try not to use it in my research or opinions, but it still creeps in by way of (what I call) half-way thinking. I don't think something all the way through. I just assume it's true, and sometimes I didn't even realize I was assuming something until I look at it critically, so in my opinion, if you say that you don't practice confirmation bias, I don't believe it. Everyone does it, even when you actively try not to do it, or worse, when you don't even realize something is an assumption at all.

You have to take some things for granted, that's a given, for example your birth date, you were there at your birth, but when it happened is something you have to take other people's word for that along with anything that happened before you were born, but a lot of that can be questioned and should be verified (birth certificate) or sourced or at least looked at from a critical thinking point of view.

We've all done critical thinking, in at least a small way, like for example, when you watch movies and look for plot holes. Real critical thinkers (or skeptics, or they should be anyway) don't just accept one way of looking at evidence, they actually consider the other side, they look for the plot holes, both the innocence and/ or guilt probability plot holes of same. That's when I'm willing to call something a real hunt for the truth.

It's like the search for Bigfoot. I am a firm believer that he/ she really does exist. But, I am also willing to look at the other side and admit that there really is no good evidence proving it does exist, but that doesn't mean that Bigfoot doesn't exist, it's just that all the evidence, to date, is really bad. And I'm willing to admit that, but today, it looks like the evidence favors the skeptic.

What's interesting, and tends to jiggle my "but, what if" bone and all these witnesses have had to have seen something. There are just too many eyewitness reports and some them are from credible witnesses. Witnesses that know what a bear looks like and some that are in law enforcement and other government agencies, that have seen something. Maybe it's the Bigfoot some people think it is (like me) and maybe it's something else all together, a hybrid of some kind, or a one time true genetic mutation, or maybe it's just a guy or gal in a suit.

My point being is that even though I strongly believe in the existence of Bigfoot (like the belief that Amanda is innocent or guilty), but I'm at least enough of a critical thinker (and true skeptic) to realize and admit the evidence, so far, sucks, or to even admit that even though the probabilities are improbable that Bigfoot does exist (like my roommate believes), nothing's impossible, it's just sometimes not always probable.

Myself, I've already explained that most of my beliefs in their innocence is in the probabilities that I discussed HERE and HERE also, if you can convince me these innocence probabilities are not as high as I think they are (a higher probability that they're innocent, and a lower probability that they're guilty), then feel free to convince me. A good example of the kind of evidence that would sway me is if they opened the alleged knife and someone (other than Dr. Stefanio, an impartial forensic scientist that both sides could trust) found an abundant amount of Meredith's blood and DNA (subject to public review of all evidence, EDFs etc., and a video of the procedure from beginning to end), I would then have to change my probabilities,

d

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Myself, I've already explained that most of my beliefs in their innocence is in the probabilities that I discussed HERE and HERE also, if you can convince me these innocence probabilities are not as high as I think they are (a higher probability that their innocent, and a lower probability that their guilty), then feel free to convince me. A good example of the kind of evidence that would sway me is if they opened the alleged knife and someone (other than Dr. Stefanio, an impartial forensic scientist that both sides could trust) found an abundant amount of Meredith's blood and DNA (subject to public review of all evidence, EDFs etc., and a video of the procedure from beginning to end), I would then have to change my probabilities,

d

There are some individual items I might have issue with you on in what you wrote (especially about Big Foot - In fact we were just discussing Big Foot on the SGU Forum :p ) but do not want to discuss them at this time,

I would like to discuss the knife however. Let us assume that Amanda did kill Meredeth for the sake of this discussion. What is the actual likelihood of that being the knife she used. I would argue that it is just about non existent.
 
Banned in the US?

Here's a piece by Stephen Robert Morse, who was twitter-assaulted by trolls (his description) for a six-word tweet he made, which was:



http://stephenrobertmorse.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/amanda1/

Morse started off his own defence by asking the trolls, "What other cases are you working on or passionate about." He got no answer.

Some of the tidbits which Morse writes, appealed to me:

Hi Bill thanks for posting this link, I'm looking forward to reading it.

Mach pointed to a book by Preston /Spezi ("Der Engel mit den Eisaugen") thought I had seen in English on Amazon, and I'm wondering what on earth happened to it, because it's vanished from Google, and I only found references to the german version on Bing (I am trying to avoid anything microsoft, so this was very distressing).

Does anyone know if this book has been withdrawn from the English language version? Has this book been banned in the US, is that even possible?

I tried to buy it in german off of the Amazon.UK site, and it politely directed me to the US Amazon site to buy titles "available in my own country".

Titles available in my own country? Who are these idiots? I'm outraged at the idea that Amazon and google are deciding what I get to see and read. Out-******-rageous!

So does anyone have an english language version, or know where I can pick one up?

In the meanwhile, I am planning on fomenting an internet revolution to eliminate these types of state sponsored censorship barriers. The balls on these weasles.
 
Hi Bill thanks for posting this link, I'm looking forward to reading it.

Mach pointed to a book by Preston /Spezi ("Der Engel mit den Eisaugen") thought I had seen in English on Amazon, and I'm wondering what on earth happened to it, because it's vanished from Google, and I only found references to the german version on Bing (I am trying to avoid anything microsoft, so this was very distressing).

Does anyone know if this book has been withdrawn from the English language version? Has this book been banned in the US, is that even possible?

I tried to buy it in german off of the Amazon.UK site, and it politely directed me to the US Amazon site to buy titles "available in my own country".

Titles available in my own country? Who are these idiots? I'm outraged at the idea that Amazon and google are deciding what I get to see and read. Out-******-rageous!

So does anyone have an english language version, or know where I can pick one up?

In the meanwhile, I am planning on fomenting an internet revolution to eliminate these types of state sponsored censorship barriers. The balls on these weasles.

Did you try "Book Finder"
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?a...%20preston&title=engel%20mit%20den%20eisaugen

I find one from Abebooks for $8.81
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sho...cm_mmc=aff-_-ir-_-59145-_-77666&afn_sr=impact
 
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(...)
And the dead giveaway is that almost all their evidence (their pretend strongest arguements) all center mostly around the psychology of Amanda. The way she acted after the murders (the cartwheel for example). Her inconsistencies in what she remembered after the fact. Her testimony on the stand. Saying that the break-in was staged by Amanda. (...)
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Inconsistencies have nothing to do with psychology.

(btw. it seems like you admit she was inconsistent)
 
Inconsistencies have nothing to do with psychology.

(btw. it seems like you admit she was inconsistent)

Even assuming she was a loathsome individual, Cameron Todd Willingham does not seem to have been a nice guy. He may very well have beaten his wife to death one day. The problem is that the evidence does not support his guilt with regards to the fire at his home being arson.
 
It is incredibly common for college students to do a lot of crazy and incoherent things. Knox in 2007 seems to me as the rather typical American young folk in his/her year of stay abroad, just a within a phase of erratic search for herself.

I may well end here my description of Knox's charachter.

Probably just as well, since you have never met her and have not the first clue what she is like.

Let's move the discussion back to an area where you are an expert: baseless speculation about things that never happened. Tell us more about the mat-sliding, as revealed by Infallible Blue Loony-nol from Zeta Reticuli.

There's only one bathmat, but, according to Rinaldi, footprints from two people. Did they take turns, slide in tandem, or what? Explain how the mat sliding worked, where they started, destinations, way points, etc.

I'm not asking for much here... a thousand words of verbal flatulence, set down without a moment's thought or reflection, per your usual style.

I think you should indulge me on this. Otherwise people might get the impression that you are dodging the subject, because you realize it's a stupid theory, and the more you try to describe it in detail, the more obviously stupid it will seem.
 
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The autopsy report, the lies and story changings of Sollecito, the lies and the calunnia from Knox, the double-DNA kitchen knife, the bra clasp DNA, the luminol prints, the telephone records contrasting with their alibies, the false computer record alibi, physical evidence of staged burglary;

all this exists. It's not made up. So I don't see what's wrong with ruling cautionary measures.
That "the police didn't look for any" is your judgement, in my opinion completely unfounded. The 'break in' appears to me as obviously fake and also the physical evidence of multiple perpetrators is obvious.
That Sollecito is a weak and depending subject was also true; and that Knox was a dangerous subject, well it is something that some the evidence of which may dispute when we looka at it on a physical level, but I consider this a reasonable inference because of her lies and calunnia and because of her clearly manipulative intent (evidence of this in her hand writen note).

On the contrary: It is ALL made up.
The "''break in' " IS NOT "obviously fake": It is only fake to the Italian Judges who build strawman arguments such as "no one could climb the 4 meter height" and "it would take three climbs" or the latest outrageous Nincini nonsense of "Rudy is too good a burglar to break in this way(even though he had climbed and broke in in the same way in Milan)", so Knox must have faked it. The recent example of the climber who easily climbed up and opened the shutters shows that the Italian Judges are no considering the reality of tehg evidence in their quest to frame knox.
Autopsy evidence that has 8 of nine experts saying that the murder does not indicate multiple or single attackers and the only one expert who says that it was multiple is the one hired by the lawyer who is suing the Knox and solicito for a large cash settlement. The expert hired by the lawyer suing for money seems to impress the Italian Judges the most.
The Italian police are proud of beating an insane statements out a terrified college kids without record of the police tactics and benefit of a lawyer,In spite of the fact that beating up suspects is supposed to be illegal in Italy, but in this case the Judges say it is OK, somehow, because it is Knox.
The non existent luminal prints, the contaminated Bra DNA and double knife evidence are all fantasies that no one would ever dream of taking to court if the police had and judges had not announced case solved before they got all the evidence.
All of this sophistry pales in the light of the procedural dirty tricks played first by the police and eventually by the Judiciary themselves to assure that the defense lawyers were NOT ALLOWED to disprove any of the evidence.

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+1 = +2

d

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Thanks DF, much appreciated. Any word on an English version, preferably on kindle? Seems very, very strange that this book is only available in German, and not in the US.

You or anyone have any idea what gives?

The title means "The angel with the eyes of ice" if that means anything or will help?
edit: I should add that you might want to write directly to the author. I have done this in the past with issues and have gotten good results.
 
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